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Posted: 9/21/2004 8:40:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2004 8:52:26 PM EST by S-28]
Rifle- 16" 1-7 LMT upper/Bushy lower M4gery.
Temp. 75degrees.
Wind- 0 value from 8 o'clock
Range- 100m
Rest- Mechanical with Protector bags on bench.
Optic- Weaver V-16 in Colt flat top mount.
# of shots per group= 5
Ammo- Olympic from Dans sporting goods. No lot# on boxes received, so I ain't gotta clue.

Group#1

6.174"

Group#2
3.852"

Group#3
5.47

Controll ammunition performance for this platform.
Same conditions and range.

"Sportsmans guide M855 62gr Ball"
Lot#????? (Somebody tell me and we will both know!!! )

Group#1
4.068

Group#2
3.84

Group#3
4.324


Wolf 62gr.
Lot# N(Backwards "N" anyhoo) p184-04

Group#1

3.432

Group#2

4.71

Group#3

3.915

And just cuz I had the remnants of a box, I got a wild hair(Breaking in a new barrel inspires such things.).

Cor-Bon 53gr. DPX
Lot#- 20040201

Group#1
1.154

Group#2
2.340



Results of Olympic "Military contract" ammo in Calibrated 10% gelatin, with 4 layer denim barrier.

#1
Distance from Block- 8'
Vel.-2928
Penetration.- 13.75"
Recovered weight of projectile- 41.2 gr

#2
Distance from Block-8'
Vel.-2890
Penetration.- 14.25"
recovered weight of projectile- 44.3gr


Notes.
Both Projectiles deformed at at the base slightly forward of the cannelure during yaw and ejected core fragments.

Both Projectiles deviated from initial path of impact approx 3.5" at distance of final recovery.

Both projectiles exhibited an initial signifiacant TSC of approx 2.75" in dia. where majority of core fragmentation was recovered ant a depth of approx. 3.0" into block.


That's about it gang.
Still no failures to fire, feed, or extract however.

This stuff in my humble view, is NOT and should not be confused, with anything honestly wearing the M-193 badge.

Is it good and cheap practice fodder, terminals and long distance accuracy be damned?
If the 100 rounds I received from Dan are indicitive, I would say yes.

However, the results from Troy and the others indicate that there is a issue with consistency within the same "Lot".

In Dan's defense, (And God bless him for sticking his honest neck out, and having his(He buys and re-sells mind you!!!) product run through the wringer here!!!!) it would appear that the folks in Greece have a loose handle on QA/QC over the full run of a "Lot".

The Olympic ammo I received from Dan, and have handled and shot in the past, also were devoid of a lot number on each box.
This leads to questions about an infrastructures system of accountability, checks and balances.

In the end my opinion is that I need more time and ammo down range, based upon the limited number of rounds I got from Dan, and have fired so far.

I WILL , be ordering a case from Dan tomorrow or Thursday to do a long term "Dig in" test for my own questions that have for the most part multiplied rather than narrowed in all of this.

I really want an alternative to Wolf.
I had hopes for this stuff.
It's better than the "Regular" Olympic, but I suspect it might have to do with the limited number of rounds down range.

So far, no one has mentioned any malfunctions.
This in itself is goofy when considering "Normal" olympic ammo.

To sum it up?
I dunno.

More questions now than when I started.

Hope this helps, if not, stick with what ya know.

S-28

(Edited cuz I forgot to remember somewhat obvious grammar, and composition, and the small matter of a decimal point being several feet to the left! DOH!!!!! )

(Edited a second time for spelling like a Third grader on Carck...er "CRACK", here and there... public schools, ya get what ya paid for!)

­

Link Posted: 9/21/2004 9:53:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 10:47:48 PM EST
I have 29 rounds of olympic free to whoever wants to pay shipping....

that is what is left after a horrid jam I had

Short version: gunshop that had to pry my bushmaster open said the only way the brass could of expanded as badly as it did, was if it was loaded 2x hotter then normal. We're talking .5mm in difference here. Never did find the primer

Link Posted: 9/21/2004 11:19:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 5:49:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 6:24:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 6:27:34 AM EST by AkronArmory]

Originally Posted By RS39:
Thanks for the full effort!

Special thanks for the Cor-Bon so we do not get buried in follow up posts about 1/7 twist being wrong for light ammo when Wolf was winning the accuracy test hr


Ron,

I need HELP here.

S-28 is offering good information here because he is USING the ammo, He has had NO MALFUNCTIONS.

In a very nice phone conversation with Troy the other day, we discussed the merits of FIRING the AMMUNITION.. Troy said he will hopefully get a chance to FIRE the ammo in question on Wednesday (today). All of this mess where people obviously are confusing this ammo with prior commercial offerings from Olympic is maddening.

I am troubled with what appears to be a WITCH HUNT.

God knows, as was proven in Salem, Massachusetts,... "If you look for a witch,...you WILL find one!".

Bob
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 11:00:41 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 11:22:20 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:31:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 4:32:48 PM EST by thezman]

Gel testing aside, (and thanks S-28 for taking the time to do it), I'm having problems understanding how this ammo can have an extreme spread of 250+ fps. With that high of an extreme spread it's not surprising that his guns are throwing groups in excess of 5". Consistant ammo does not have extreme spreads that high. Hell, I've chronographed Wolf and it's more consistant than that, with ES of 60 to 85 fps depending on lot #'s.

I have some of the new lot of Olympic coming thanks to a generous donation by Troy. I will have case measurements and chrono data shortly thereafter. I will be able to measure the cases and give variences in thousandths of an inch. I will measure empty cases, both in weight and length, powder charges, bullet weights, and bullet diameter. I will post exactly what I find.

Larry
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 9:10:38 PM EST
Akron,

So far I have fired the ammo through 3 different rifles.
Have Chronoed 20 rounds through 2 different rifles.
All three rifles share a generous Military chamber dimension.

I have not done a chamber casting of my Old Wilson case gauge, or the borrowed Dillon case gauge so the dimensions of the gauges might very well be on the "Loose side" while Troys might very well be close to the inside of the tolerence.

I did fiddle with dry chambering 10 rounds through an AR mutant that has a very tight chamber however, and did have a few that didn't close with authority.
I did not shoot this rifle for the testing on account of the barrel being extremely non-typical with it's progressive (Radical!) Gain twist rifling( Steve Webb at Apex barrrels) and resultant effect on velocitys, pressures and accuracy.

This tells me that (Using the seat of the pants measurement) that some of the OLY ammo is a bit on the outside of the mean average, even if it might be within spec as indicated on the case gauges.

The numbers from the Chrono still get me, and will be adding 2-3 more rifles to the mix just so I know the Chrono didn't lie.

Numbers like that indicate that either pressures are spiking, poor storage, or poor attention to charge weights if the propellant is at all consistent.

As for the witch hunt.
Ya gotta trust me on this.

I was HOPING this stuff was the shiznit!!!
I burn the dickens out of ammo through the carbine in practice and actually don't like Wolf ammo for my own reasons even if they appear to be(So far!) unfounded.

I have no agenda other than my own wallet, and lusting after stockpiles of decent ammo that is safe and cost effective to shoot.

The gelatin was for prosperity.
I have no intent of using any Ball ammo other than M855 Ball(Have a bunch of it, and not so much (m193) for "Social occaisions".
Was just curious to see if the Olympic projectile was up to the M193 standards.

Again,
I thank you for being open in all of this and understand completely that you have no hand in this ammunitions manufacture, storage, shipping, storage, or original specification.

It is what it is, and I have tried to remain as impartial as possible(though I REALLY wanted this stuff to work!) throughout the whole affair.

It still ain't over.
Still have enough ammo left to do some measuring and some more shooting.
Though now I have a very good idea of what to expect.

Thanks again!
S-28





Link Posted: 9/22/2004 9:26:55 PM EST
RS39,

The Cor-Bon 53gr DPX is exceedingly long for it's weight due to being a monolithic bullet of lesser density than lead.

Length has more to do with stability than weight when it comes to twist rates, though I have had very good accuracy from 1-7 barrels in the past when firing M193.

Used to be able to hold the 10 ring of the old "Able" target at 300m all day long if I paid attention to the wind.

Just had the remnants of the DPX in the bag and got a wild hair.

I should grab the 20" and pull the Eotech and see what happens, but the ES will get my Goat in the end...I just know it.

Part of my groups may very well be my own "Quivering mass of protoplasma behind the buttplate" issue thanks to a new telestock that didn't ride the rear bag well at all.

But the groups with the nasty wolf and DPX shored me up a bit that it wasn't just me influencing things.

Looking forward to your posts on measurements, and weights.

I ain't got the time to do such things.
(Should be sleeping now...DOH!!)

Thanks!
S-28

Link Posted: 9/23/2004 6:34:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 10:03:24 PM EST
RS,

I include all 5 of the shots fired.
The #2 group with the DPX was tarnished by a flyer that I suspect was all me. Had I just counted the 4, it would have been in the MOA category.

If I feel I "OOPSED" to the point that it is obvious between calling and actual impact, I start over.

With this particular carbine, I was a bit uneasy as the Magpul stock does not "Ride" the bags at all in the sense that any AR sorta/kinda does.

I try to be consistent with position in the bags as much as possible, but then the round forearm, and the rest makes that a challenge as well.

As for matching targets to the sights... I cheat with a scope.

Dot reticle on a plain black target paster with a paper plate as a backer for contrast seems to work well enough, but likely will never get me into the super shoot!

Will be trying another rifle for accuracy next days off.
Like you mention some rifles are like Kids, ya never can tell what they want to be fed.

S-28



Link Posted: 9/26/2004 2:07:56 AM EST
Something still doesn't smell right about this being military ammo.

I hold a couple of ammunition-related MOSs and worked (as a civilian) for a couple of years at an ammunition depot. We had quite a bit of foreign small caliber ammunition on hand, and I never saw any of it that didn't have a lot number. Even non-NATO-standard M193 should have had an NSN if it was being produced for military contracts.

The Greek ammunition outfit Pyrkal has a pretty decent reputation. Some folks even consider them the mil-surp gold standard for .303 British... If you go to their website they state that they have two different divisions, one producing military munitions and the other manufacturing sporting ammunition.

Based on the packaging, which appears to be identical for the current "NPA 99" stuff and the previously available and reviled "NPA 01" lots, I suspect that this is "sporting" production.

Why it has been sitting someplace for the last few years I can't explain. But if it _is_ military surplus, why is it being sold after only 5 years?
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 7:07:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By AGC:
But if it _is_ military surplus, why is it being sold after only 5 years?



To help pay for the Athens Olympics!


[me ducks]
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 10:51:20 PM EST
AGC,

The stuff Dan sent to me was in the commercial boxes, and devoid of any (I looked HARD mind you!) indication of a Lot number.

Possibly the contract run surplus, has been packaged in commercial boxes for retail convenience?

Hell, I dunno!!!

Good to hear I ain't the only one that finds this disturbing!!

Is it an overrun of headstamped brass that was run down the commercial line?

Untill we get someone from Olympic ammo here, speaking in plain old English to explain, I don't know.

Dan took the chance, Kudos to him.

He is the one honest party in this whole bloody affair that I have no reservations about.

S-28



Link Posted: 9/27/2004 5:52:57 AM EST
My personal philosophy on ammunition: There are two kinds of ammo:
1) SHTF
2) Plinking

For SHTF, M193 or better. Meaning: Q3131A, XM193, M855, 68+ gr OTMs.

For plinking, whatever runs reliably in my rifle. That criteria having been met, whatever is the absolute cheapest. Period. For me, that's any of the russian steel cased stuff running around $90/K. Lacquered Wolf, poly Wolf, Barnaul - it don't matter. It all runs 100% in my rifle. I shot nearly 1000 rounds of Barnaul and lacquered Wolf in one weekend without cleaning with no malfunctions of any kind, and that included bump firing and slow firing at 300 yards.
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