Where is that can o' worms smilie?
Honestly I don't know but I'm sure everyone else will tell you.

I have wanted the no BS answer to that question for a long time; just never wanted to be labeled a "troll" and get flamed........ Glad a mod asked.....


I have my ideas; primarily I think it boils down to politics in the military and bean counters. Secondly, I also hold the opinion that Bill dropped the ball, and has not pushed the round hard enough, especially with AR manufacturers and ammunition makers. Remington almost let the 6.8 slip away when it first came out, due to everyone, including myself, scratching thier heads wondering where the ammo was. But through no small effort, 6.8 has caught on due to manufacturers' pushing it, advertising, and actually getting barrels, bolts, and ammo out there for the shooting public.


And no, I do not believe 6.5 has seen any use. I get my opinion from searching high and low through the net, and coming up empty handed with no hard facts.


I would have one RIGHT now, if I could find more than DMR configurations. I realize they do make others, but I have not come across any w/o an insane wait time. Oh, and ammo....

Quoted: The question is posed simply: Has the 6.5 grendel seen combat?

The question is answered simply: Yes.

John

| 6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge. |

I think that those who actually really know, probably can't say if the 6.5G or any of the alternative calibers have been fielded by any specops troops.  Unfortunately we may not know ever.  Only way we would really know is if a caliber was adopted by the military, and we know how likely THAT is!

You could ask Gen. Bryan "Doug" Brown, or Vice Adm. Eric Olsen, they would probably know.

I dont know but am also curious.

Does Blackwater count?

Quoted: Quoted: Does Blackwater count? Sure does if its used in combat

Source? And is it discussed on the 6.5G site? They really need to update it too....

Quoted: Does Blackwater count?

Frankly. No.  The ROE are maybe different; but they shall compile with rules of LW under US JAG definition.

Quoted: Quoted: Does Blackwater count? Frankly. No.  The ROE are maybe different; but they shall compile with rules of LW under US JAG definition.

Well, Cold just said "combat" and from the videos I've seen I'd say it was combat or, like he said a "turkey shoot" I'll get back to this when I find something.

EDIT,  looks like it was all hear-say

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Does Blackwater count? Frankly. No.  The ROE are maybe different; but they shall compile with rules of LW under US JAG definition. Well, Cold just said "combat" and from the videos I've seen I'd say it was combat or, like he said a "turkey shoot" I'll get back to this when I find something. EDIT,  looks like it was all hear-say

If we are talking the same footage, the (in)famous "turkey shoot" quote is from Travis H. at the Battle of Al Najaf ... and he's fielding a .223 ...

A number of rounds have seen "combat" or (COTW) but that does not mean "adopted".  Sometimes very esoteric things make it to the battle field, even in single numbers ... does it really matter?  If a member of a certain unit that has "leeway" in weapons selection takes a 6.5 x 55 into the theatre, does that mean the US has adopted the 6.5 Swede?

The 6.5 Grendel may have very well been used in theatre, whether one single rifle or more.  As mentioned, those who have the option to select their hardware are least likely to discuss it.  You should know this

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Does Blackwater count? Frankly. No.  The ROE are maybe different; but they shall compile with rules of LW under US JAG definition. Well, Cold just said "combat" and from the videos I've seen I'd say it was combat or, like he said a "turkey shoot" I'll get back to this when I find something. EDIT,  looks like it was all hear-say If we are talking the same footage, the (in)famous "turkey shoot" quote is from Travis H. at the Battle of Al Najaf ... and he's fielding a .223 ... A number of rounds have seen "combat" or (COTW) but that does not mean "adopted".  Sometimes very esoteric things make it to the battle field, even in single numbers ... does it really matter?  If a member of a certain unit that has "leeway" in weapons selection takes a 6.5 x 55 into the theatre, does that mean the US has adopted the 6.5 Swede? The 6.5 Grendel may have very well been used in theatre, whether one single rifle or more.  As mentioned, those who have the option to select their hardware are least likely to discuss it.  You should know this

Cold

I'll tell you YES, the Grendel has been used...Do I know by whom? I dont, Grendelizor might but Bill would be able to tell you who, if there is or isnt a who.  

But like Marty said, No one is going to say for sure who it is in a open forum....So you either can take what we say with a grain of salt, ask Bill or just come to your sense's and drop it

ant

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Does Blackwater count? Frankly. No.  The ROE are maybe different; but they shall compile with rules of LW under US JAG definition. Well, Cold just said "combat" and from the videos I've seen I'd say it was combat or, like he said a "turkey shoot" I'll get back to this when I find something. EDIT,  looks like it was all hear-say If we are talking the same footage, the (in)famous "turkey shoot" quote is from Travis H. at the Battle of Al Najaf ... and he's fielding a .223 ... A number of rounds have seen "combat" or (COTW) but that does not mean "adopted".  Sometimes very esoteric things make it to the battle field, even in single numbers ... does it really matter?  If a member of a certain unit that has "leeway" in weapons selection takes a 6.5 x 55 into the theatre, does that mean the US has adopted the 6.5 Swede? The 6.5 Grendel may have very well been used in theatre, whether one single rifle or more.  As mentioned, those who have the option to select their hardware are least likely to discuss it.  You should know this

Yep, it's pretty clear that was a 5.56.
I read some stuff months ago but when I went back it was just hear-say, military guys expressing their opinion. I also read that no one has produced enough 6.5 ammo for any major squad shipments but, again it's all hear-say

You don't need .gov creds to tour the AA facility ...

I would use those creds to have an offline discussion with DocGKR, he can tell you about a number of things not suited for discussion here or on any other open board.  The fact that some reports have trickled down about other rounds ... well, if you look at the redacted .458 report, there is now a big disclaimer at the beginning.  Some of the aspects of the letter and the person writing it have met with serious questions from "silent professionals" (such as rank and supposed service not matching)

Honestly, this forum is not the best place to discuss some of this stuff.  If I make it to SHOT, I can see if we can sit down with some folks who can give the skinny on what has and hasn't been used over there.  Let's put it this way "30-06, the original one shot 3-round burst ..." comes to mind ... I do believe that information has been made public ... so if 30-06 has been deployed in theatre, 6.5 G maybe as well ...

Quoted: If AARs with dedacted info have been posted willingly about other rounds, well why not about the 6.5 G?

Different approach to marketing?

Yesterday evening I phoned Bill Alexander, told him about this thread, and asked him if I could share any details about the 6.5 Grendel in combat. After he finished laughing, he said, "Hell no! Are they bloody frickin' mental? They want operational details in a time of war on a public bloody hobbyist forum? No wonder guys like Pat Rogers don't take them seriously! If they haven't got the bloomin' security clearances to ask through the proper channels, I certainly ain't gonna tell them. What do they want? Name, rank, and serial number? Provinces? Cities? Dates? Might as well publish it in Arabic and make it easier for the buggers!"

OK, yes, I think Bill is a little paranoid about this, but he takes seriously the trust earned with his clients. You've got to remember that his career began in the Cold War, and he explained that, if one knew where to look in public places, like university papers, you could find out quite a bit about what the Russians were up to. The Chinese were much better at keeping everything --- everything --- secretive. "America leaks like a sieve!" he says.

After I talked with him a little more, this is what I got: "The 6.5 Grendel has been used in various capacities where U.S. military personnel are currently operational." How's that for you? Fine, roll your eyes. Deal with it.

In most cases, Bill knows the entities to whom he sells his products. In some cases, they provide feedback on how and where 6.5 Grendel was employed and the results. In other cases, he sells his products to clients and he, himself, has no idea what they do with them. In a few cases, certain entities have provided feedback on their use of the 6.5 Grendel and he has no idea how they came to acquire his products.

I don't believe he has any formal, military After Action Reports of the type that this forum would like to see. Cold, are you saying that you've seen actual AARs for the 6.8 SPC floating around the Web? If so, somebody please provide a link to them.

"You're wasting your time," Bill said. "What if you told them everything? They'd point and call you a liar. Save your breath. . . ."

So if you want to feel smug and say, "Ha! They can't prove to me that the 6.5 Grendel has shed blood in anger. I knew that cartridge could never cut it as a man-killer!" Then I say, go ahead, knock yourself out. Later, I'll remember this thread and chuckle. Hope you'll also find it amusing. . . .

John

| 6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge. |

Gren, this: "I knew that cartridge could never cut it as a man-killer!" , was never Cold's intent with this thread.  He is not the type to bash another caliber like that, as witnessed from his being a fan of the 458S but appreciating the 50Beo just as much and not being a twit about "This is better than that" crap.  As stated in his initial post: Fire away, and keep in mind Im here to learn why they use it or why not. This is not a thread to battle over which 6.x round is better or any round for that matter, because frankly I could careless which round people think is better. Just the facts please.  

"Fire away, and keep in mind Im here to learn why they use it or why not. This is not a thread to battle over which 6.x round is better or any round for that matter, because frankly I could careless which round people think is better. Just the facts please. "

Bill's response does not surprise me in the least.  We went through this with the 50Beo as well and got a similar answer.  It seems purchases were made for rifles, uppers, and ammo and shipped to interesting places, but that is all that is known or proffered up for info.  Like he said, this place is like a bloddy sieve, in terms of information.  I realize the gov releases stuff sometimes strategically, but sometimes things leak and certain people don't know to keep their mouth's shut.  I'm talking about the media here of course.  

I hope these alternative calibers are being utilized by our troops in some capacity.  I truly believe they are.  Will one or a number get "adopted", well, that is probably unlikely.  It would be nice, but at least we have a strong feeling that they are being used, which means that terrorists and bad guys in general are hopefully falling at the hands of 6.8's, 6.5's, 30-06's, 50B's, 458S's, etc.  

Cold's intent has nothing to do with the 6.5's performance, it's pretty simple in it's scope.  I say again "this thread has nothing to do with the 6.5s performance" over.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Does Blackwater count? Frankly. No.  The ROE are maybe different; but they shall compile with rules of LW under US JAG definition. Well, Cold just said "combat" and from the videos I've seen I'd say it was combat or, like he said a "turkey shoot" I'll get back to this when I find something. EDIT,  looks like it was all hear-say If we are talking the same footage, the (in)famous "turkey shoot" quote is from Travis H. at the Battle of Al Najaf ... and he's fielding a .223 ... A number of rounds have seen "combat" or (COTW) but that does not mean "adopted".  Sometimes very esoteric things make it to the battle field, even in single numbers ... does it really matter?  If a member of a certain unit that has "leeway" in weapons selection takes a 6.5 x 55 into the theatre, does that mean the US has adopted the 6.5 Swede? The 6.5 Grendel may have very well been used in theatre, whether one single rifle or more.  As mentioned, those who have the option to select their hardware are least likely to discuss it.  You should know this Cold I'll tell you YES, the Grendel has been used...Do I know by whom? I dont, Grendelizor might but Bill would be able to tell you who, if there is or isnt a who.   But like Marty said, No one is going to say for sure who it is in a open forum....So you either can take what we say with a grain of salt, ask Bill or just come to your sense's and drop it ant Well my Ant friend, maybe thats how you do things, the way I was taught to do things, you cant just drop something after you have asked a legit question a few people find unpopular or cannot seem to answer with some sort of supporting proof. Im not allowing this discussion to fall into a which is better, I dont much care. I am not in a position to select my duty weapon or choose between, X,Y or Z for a load out like some others are. Im just curious if there is anything out there which has proof positive combat use for the 6.5 G.  If theres not, so be it. If I have to take someones word, I personally will take it from someone with merit. Others can make their own decisions and conclusions.  DocGKR himself has asked a few  members  for creds when stating something and their failure to do so speaks volumes. I would think since the 50 B, 458 SOCOM and other rounds have made it over there, it is possible that the 6.5 G has, however, my question is, how come there is info about those rounds being used over there and searches do not yield anything about the 6,5 G? If im not looking in the right place, just link me, pretty easy. The threshold I set is pretty low, pretty easy to meet. Again set that way for a reason. Just curious if anything can be offered up which would validate it as a combat round. My interest has been peaked, and since there has been other dedacted reports from other weapons not adopted by the mil being used over there, Im just wondering if anything is out which could be shown for the 6.5 G. Again pretty clear. Open forum or not, its taken place for other rounds so I dont see any real reason it precludes the 6.5 G. I will be in Va this coming June working for the Government.  I wonder if I show my creds, my colleagues and I could get a tour of the AA plant? Id love to ask Bill some questions for kicks then. None of this is instituted in malice, just wondering, and it seems others have too.

Hi, I want to add one thing, please drop the issue, nobody worth a shit will identify which units or individuals are using it.

What will you achieve by getting the true answer beyond yes?

Remember, you are speaking in an open forum.

Again no hostility was directed at your question, only that a answer will contribute nothing more than problems for the users.

Anybody have an online link to these 6.8 SPC AARs that Cold would seem to accept as a minimum standard of "proof of combat"? I'd like to see where the bar is set.

John

| 6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge. |

Quoted: And this is not going to become a 6.x anything debate so be sure you understand it has nothing to do with that.

I understood that from the start and have zero interest in this being a 6.5 vs. 6.8.

I'm gathering you've seen a military AAR for the .458 with redacted info and that meets your minimum standard of "combat-blooded" proof for that round.

anything that shows some combat use works for me

I'm assuming that you are confident the 6.8 SPC has been used in combat. What did it take to convince you of this? And can I see it? Is that a fair question?

John

| 6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge. |

Its a pretty simple question and no reason to start a 6.5 Vs 6.8 pissing match.

Has any nations military bought the 6.5 in significant numbers? If so is that nation currently fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq. If the answer to both of those questions is yes then its probably seen some combat. If not, it probably hasnt.

[quote}Well my Ant friend, maybe thats how you do things, the way I was taught to do things, you cant just drop something after you have asked a legit question a few people find unpopular or cannot seem to answer with some sort of supporting proof.

Im not allowing this discussion to fall into a which is better, I dont much care. I am not in a position to select my duty weapon or choose between, X,Y or Z for a load out like some others are. Im just curious if there is anything out there which has proof positive combat use for the 6.5 G.  If theres not, so be it. If I have to take someones word, I personally will take it from someone with merit. Others can make their own decisions and conclusions.  DocGKR himself has asked a few  members  for creds when stating something and their failure to do so speaks volumes. I would think since the 50 B, 458 SOCOM and other rounds have made it over there, it is possible that the 6.5 G has, however, my question is, how come there is info about those rounds being used over there and searches do not yield anything about the 6,5 G? If im not looking in the right place, just link me, pretty easy. The threshold I set is pretty low, pretty easy to meet. Again set that way for a reason. Just curious if anything can be offered up which would validate it as a combat round.

My interest has been peaked, and since there has been other dedacted reports from other weapons not adopted by the mil being used over there, Im just wondering if anything is out which could be shown for the 6.5 G. Again pretty clear.

Open forum or not, its taken place for other rounds so I dont see any real reason it precludes the 6.5 G.

I will be in Va this coming June working for the Government.  I wonder if I show my creds, my colleagues and I could get a tour of the AA plant? Id love to ask Bill some questions for kicks then. None of this is instituted in malice, just wondering, and it seems others have too.

I never once made a reference about which round is better....Thats a old story, and is a waste of time.  You have your choice and I have mine.

I choose to believe, what I am told from my source's and you can either believe what John and I have said or I guess, I suggest you ask someone how to find the AAR's or do as Marty suggested and ask someone in a private conversation.  Maybe that will provide enough proof you need.

I am sure that Bill doesnt give a shit whether anyone here care's to believe that the Grendel is used in theatre, his sales are climbing! Products are cost less.

Ant

Here's a question that may satisfy as it has in the past been used by other calibers.  Has Bill sent any 6.5 ammo to the military outside CONUS.  I doubt very very much the mil. would use the underpowered Wolf ammo.  Just trying to eliminate the testing I think we can all agree has happen with certain parts of the branches.  So has ammo been sent over that anyone can say?  I think deductively that would answer the same question.

Personally I don't give a hoot.  But as a point, look at the weird nonofficial crap that was fielded in other wars.  WWII being great example as there is so much data written on it in the public purview.

Quoted: something which would lend credence to it being a round having seen combat, IF SUCH A THING EXISTS in the public, Id love to see a link etc, pretty simple.

If your question is really that simple, then, for my small part, no, I don't know of anything that exists "in the public" that would prove to you that 6.5 Grendel has seen combat. Whew! That was easy!

So that's all I have, but others can speak up if they can contribute to Cold's inquiry.

John

| 6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge. |

Jesus.  So what caliber bullet being used is a matter of fucking national security?

I have no dog in this fight but some of y'all are being silly and defensive when Cold simply asked question and requested proof of the answer.

No one is attacking anyone here but you guys have full shields up.

And if Bill Alexander really responded like that, he need to have a beer and get a BJ.

Quoted: Quoted: something which would lend credence to it being a round having seen combat, IF SUCH A THING EXISTS in the public, Id love to see a link etc, pretty simple. If your question is really that simple, then, for my small part, no, I don't know of anything that exists "in the public" that would prove to you that 6.5 Grendel has seen combat. Whew! That was easy! So that's all I have, but others can speak up if they can contribute to Cold's inquiry. John | 6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge. |

See the problem with all this is, there are some on both sides that just want so badly for the other to fail they will use anything said, out of context, to further their agenda and then everyone has to be so guarded in their answers.  Someone eventually is going to post that "see the 6.5 Gren has never seen combat their biggest fan/proponent even said so."  But they will only quote the part they want, which will then get an obvious response from the Grendel Camp and big internet fight erupts, thread locked.  If everyone treated each other as though they were guests in the others home and this was a in person conversation much more constructive dialog would happen.  But as things are now everyone is always on guard about the others true intentions when questions are asked.  Its ashame as both have very good qualities and both have weaknesses.  The internet is much like cars.  When people are behind the wheel they act like they are some big shit when something pisses them off , saluting you, high beams, horn, tail gating etc..  But make them get out of the 2000+ car and things change very quickly.  People can be very disrespectful when anonymous, thousands of miles away, over the internet in ways they would never act in a face to face conversation.  

I personally think someone somewhere has shot someone with the 6.5 G while performing there duties to their country.

Cold, your intentions weren't the ones I was referring to. Neither was your question or its validity.   I just think there's a general distrust of the intentions behind all questioned asked by anyone who has shown a preference. Even if the intentions of the individual are straight forward as yours are.  I think thats why it took so long to get an answer from anyone as everyone is thinking OK what is he really trying to get at or who's going to take this later on and use it out of context.  This is obvious by all the "so wheres the 6.8s proof " hints in a thread that it hasn't been brought up by the poster.

Quoted: Your one vocal source so if you say it has not seen combat by my low threshold of understanding then well, people can draw there own conclusions.

Let me make a more precise summation: I cannot prove to you, by your threshold of proof, that 6.5 Grendel has seen combat. I've already gone on record as stating that, yes, it actually has seen combat.

I'm content to let time prove out the truth of the matter.

Here's a question that occurs to me, Cold: What if I could prove to you the issue with, oh, the same level of proof that you have for the .458? Your curiosity is simply assuaged? You run out and buy a Grendel? What would your response be?

John

| 6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge. |

I did a google search "6.5 Grendel" and lets just say that the 6.?'s arguement is on every single board out there!  Some where not even gun related..went about 7-8 pages into the search and didnt find anything about the Grendel in Iraq or Afgah...

But there was one point that most agree'd on was that the 5.56 was not working..Unless it was 77gr or what ever they use.

Quoted: This is obvious by all the "so wheres the 6.8s proof " hints in a thread that it hasn't been brought up by the poster.

No, Tim, I'm already satisfied, based on the testimony of PauloSantos, that the 6.8 SPC has seen combat, or least been in theater. I'd like to see a 6.8 AAR because I'd like to see a 6.8 AAR.

If I still have any secret and lingering doubts about recent 6.8 developments, it's about the one million rounds supposedly loaded by Black Hills for the military, which, I'd think (but I could be wrong) would show up as a roughly $500,000 contract on www.fbo.gov.

But I'm not worried about the combat issue. Stuff is "field tested" all the time. Does that surprise anyone?

John

| 6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge. |

I think we just all need a big group hug.

Bigant:  The 5.56 is a good 0-300 yard round.  Don't believe all the crap you read.  For every 1 military guy that bitches about the performance of the 5.56, there are hundreds of military guys that will tell you it works.  With good shot placement, it works, even with the M855 ammo.

Edit to add:  Although the 6.8SPC and the 6.5 Grendel are both an improvement over the 5.56.

Quoted: But there was one point that most agree'd on was that the 5.56 was not working..Unless it was 77gr or what ever they use.

And that is the real point of all of this.  Not the other stuff.

I think these are the answers as things now stand:

Is there any proof in the public domain that the 6.5 has been used in combat?  NO

Is there anything in any domain that the 6.5 has seen combat and can't be mentioned in this type of forum?  YES

Quoted: Quoted: If AARs with dedacted info have been posted willingly about other rounds, well why not about the 6.5 G? Different approach to marketing? Yesterday evening I phoned Bill Alexander, told him about this thread, and asked him if I could share any details about the 6.5 Grendel in combat. After he finished laughing, he said, "Hell no! Are they bloody frickin' mental? They want operational details in a time of war on a public bloody hobbyist forum? No wonder guys like Pat Rogers don't take them seriously! If they haven't got the bloomin' security clearances to ask through the proper channels, I certainly ain't gonna tell them. What do they want? Name, rank, and serial number? Provinces? Cities? Dates? Might as well publish it in Arabic and make it easier for the buggers!" OK, yes, I think Bill is a little paranoid about this, but he takes seriously the trust earned with his clients. You've got to remember that his career began in the Cold War, and he explained that, if one knew where to look in public places, like university papers, you could find out quite a bit about what the Russians were up to. The Chinese were much better at keeping everything --- everything --- secretive. "America leaks like a sieve!" he says. After I talked with him a little more, this is what I got: "The 6.5 Grendel has been used in various capacities where U.S. military personnel are currently operational." How's that for you? Fine, roll your eyes. Deal with it. In most cases, Bill knows the entities to whom he sells his products. In some cases, they provide feedback on how and where 6.5 Grendel was employed and the results. In other cases, he sells his products to clients and he, himself, has no idea what they do with them. In a few cases, certain entities have provided feedback on their use of the 6.5 Grendel and he has no idea how they came to acquire his products. I don't believe he has any formal, military After Action Reports of the type that this forum would like to see. Cold, are you saying that you've seen actual AARs for the 6.8 SPC floating around the Web? If so, somebody please provide a link to them. "You're wasting your time," Bill said. "What if you told them everything? They'd point and call you a liar. Save your breath. . . ." So if you want to feel smug and say, "Ha! They can't prove to me that the 6.5 Grendel has shed blood in anger. I knew that cartridge could never cut it as a man-killer!" Then I say, go ahead, knock yourself out. Later, I'll remember this thread and chuckle. Hope you'll also find it amusing. . . . John | 6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge. |

I'm new to this Grendel discussion as I've lately been giving it some serious thought to add to my collection.  So you could say that I'm a supporter.  That said, I find John's 'quote' of Bill puzzling.  

You see, after 41 years in the defense industry, I do have all the DoD clearances and SBI accesses and the 1st thing that struck me about the 'quote', "What do they want? Name, rank, and serial number? Provinces? Cities? Dates? Might as well publish it in Arabic and make it easier for the buggers!" is that it conveniently implies that there has been some use without specifically suggesting same.

What's odd about that is that anyone with any training in dealing with classified information knows that you neither confirm nor deny anything.  You never imply anything. You keep your mouth shut.

Quoted: I think these are the answers as things now stand: Is there any proof in the public domain that the 6.5 has been used in combat?  NO Is there anything in any domain that the 6.5 has seen combat and can't be mentioned in this type of forum?  YES

Why can't it be mentioned? What kind of super secret squirrel shit is going on?