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Posted: 10/17/2004 6:13:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 12:46:21 PM EST by Flushdraw]
A serious question...which is better for home defense?

The test subjects:

*Ar with 16" barrel, 55gr M193

*pump 12ga,18" barrel, 2 3/4" 00buck

Distance is sub 8yds. Overpenetration through walls is N/A.

I would think the AR would be a better choice. I figure I could get 2-4 shots on target with my

AR before I could pump the shotgun to fire a second round. I am not LE or military, and am only

quessing. Anyone have any personal experience, educated opinions, or factual data on this?

Forgive me if this is a dupe. I'm just curious and I'm a

Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:18:43 PM EST
Coach Gun with Bird shot!
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:19:48 PM EST
AR all the way. On Olympic Arms website is copies of the penetration tests with 5.56, handguns, and shotguns.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:52:55 PM EST
shotgun by a longshot
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:54:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 6:55:39 PM EST by twonami]
shotgun, the holy crap factor is more effective with the pumping action
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:55:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:57:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By markm:
Coach Gun with Bird shot!



Maybe in AZ, but here this time of year it probably wouldn't penetrate the guys coat.

Shotguns are inadequite. on my land, I could get a 75m shot, if the BGs are trying to block my driveway at its natural choke point. That and the possiblity of using my defensive weapon on predatory animals makes me choose my M4.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:03:46 PM EST
at that range: shotgun w/ #04

personally, i would rather have the AR, cause bad guys sometimes have to be engaged past 8 yrds and in vehecals; not to mention, i got 30 rds+2 extra mags on the gun

got no shotgun, but if i did, it would have only 15 shots max, w/ a shell elastics
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:06:21 PM EST
Shotgun, of course. 2-3 rounds of M193 are no match for 8 pellets worth of 00 buck. At that range, the pellets wouldn't have even exited much from the wadding, so you'll basically drill the perp with a column of lead with an area the size of a quarter.

The distance you're talking about, though, is maddeningly close. I would try and never let somebody get that close to you in a gunfight - bad things will happen. For example, it's a safe bet that anyone within 8 yards might be able to run up and inside the minimum range of your shotgun or AR before you can get it ready to fire (flipping off safety or shucking a shell into the chamber), and from there he/she can attempt to wrestle it away from you, or can bring a knife or unarmed combat skills into play.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:13:13 PM EST
I keep my shotgun under the bed loaded with birdshot. With my sidesadle, I have around 15 shells.

Aren't you guys worried about using buckshot in the house and having it go through the walls?

Same question for an AR, wouldn't a .223 just go right through the walls?
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:15:09 PM EST
5.56 fmjs will go through walls, but i think at a lower velocity and less weight than 00 buck

i think
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:17:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By SilverState:
I keep my shotgun under the bed loaded with birdshot. With my sidesadle, I have around 15 shells.

Aren't you guys worried about using buckshot in the house and having it go through the walls?

Same question for an AR, wouldn't a .223 just go right through the walls?



5.56 falls apart in a wall, even with only two pieces of sheetrock. Fatal wounds are unlikely on the other side.

Keep in mind that a clean miss with a wad of ANYTHING from a shotgun will go theough a couple of walls. Also, its extremely limited in range and easily defeated by body armor.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:23:34 PM EST
Let's assume you can choose ammo for either that will not penetrate out of your house, and that terminal performance is adequate in both. Then consider this...

Once you shoot the 5, 6, 7, or 9 rounds in your shotgun, if you need more, it will take you AT LEAST 1.5-2 seconds to load each additional round. The best 3Gunners can do it just better than 1 per second in ideal circumstances.

With the AR, you've got 30, and then a 2-3 second reload time for another 30 rounds.

-z
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:24:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By SilverState:
I keep my shotgun under the bed loaded with birdshot. With my sidesadle, I have around 15 shells.

Aren't you guys worried about using buckshot in the house and having it go through the walls?

Same question for an AR, wouldn't a .223 just go right through the walls?



NO BIRDSHOT, DAMN IT!!!
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:31:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 7:35:40 PM EST by Flushdraw]
Well, alright...

1) Couldn't find that info at Olyarms. Got a link?

2) Do you really think 2-3 rounds of M193 are no match for 00 buck? Yes, I know a shotgun is
devastating at close range, but...?

3) I have been a witness to the "holy crap" factor with the sound of a shotgun being pumped.
One of THE most terrifying sounds I have ever heard! Needless to say, I ran for cover!

4)What's up with #4 shot? Better than 00 at close range? I have heard #1 is a mofo, though.

5) Yes, sub 8yds is too damn close, thats why I said home (not ranch) defense. Lets say my
fiance opens the door to some crackhead (yeah, its happened) and things get ugly.

6) Overpenetration through walls is not an issue.


I thank you all for the replies! Please keep 'em coming or bump me in the morning. I've been
curious about this for along time.


edited to ad: I am only interested in terminal performance/ incapacitation. For arguments sake...lets say all rounds fired hit their mark c.o.m. Overpenetration is not a factor.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:36:08 PM EST
Its no longer on Olympics website.

5.56 is extremely effective at short distance.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:37:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Maybe in AZ, but here this time of year it probably wouldn't penetrate the guys coat.

Shotguns are inadequite. on my land, I could get a 75m shot, if the BGs are trying to block my driveway at its natural choke point. That and the possiblity of using my defensive weapon on predatory animals makes me choose my M4.



re: coat penetration: shoot for the head!

re: 75m driveway shots, are you really in danger of being killed when the bad guys are 75m away? That's be a hard sell for self defense unless they were shooting rifles at you. When I think home defense the typical bad guy coming thru the window or door scenario comes to mind.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:39:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

5.56 falls apart in a wall, even with only two pieces of sheetrock. Fatal wounds are unlikely on the other side.

Keep in mind that a clean miss with a wad of ANYTHING from a shotgun will go theough a couple of walls. Also, its extremely limited in range and easily defeated by body armor.



Where did you get the info on the 5.56 falling apart going through two pieces of sheet rock? I'm curious as every CQC training video and book I have ever read said exactly the opposite....

-John
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:45:11 PM EST
The shotgun is best for what is does...

The AR is a better all-around weapon, and much more versatile...

My 2 cents.

Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:47:00 PM EST
I stand corrected....It seems I have some out dated info. New test and evidence shows:
Evidence increasingly shows that 5.56 FMJ rounds like M193 and M855 are not the over-penetration risk they have often been though of as. In interior wall tests, 5.56 rounds have less wounding potential after wall strikes than any common 9mm or above handgun ammunition and/or 00 Buck shotgun loads.

So hollow points would be even better for home defense. I have TAP in mine. But I keep a 45 for home defense. HK USP .45 with Tac light I have it loaded with fed hydroshocks.


-John
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:48:51 PM EST
Beagles, it used to be on the Oly website. The info is out there. The FBI found that in the late 1980s.

As to a 75m shot, they could well be a threat to members of my family. Its something I have to consider. Besides, where I live if they are armed, on your property and clearly up to no good, they are fair game. I must consider the possibility that our response would be to grab a truck and leave, perhaps in case of a serious injury, and in that circumstance it would be necessary to clear the driveway.

Also, should I be out investigating a disturbance, it could easily be a 100m shot back to my house or driveway, if I am circled.

Also, I wouldn't trust a shotgun against a vehicle.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:51:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 7:53:31 PM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:51:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 7:52:52 PM EST by armoredsaint]
this solves your problem, why not have both. but I think you might have a problem explaining it to the cops and a judge with all that power But seriously I use a shottie with 3" Magnum slugs.

Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:53:06 PM EST
Probably a silly thing to say, but why not have both? Shotgun under the bed(with the Federal 00 buck tactical load) and an AR against the wall? That's what I have, and I don't care how paronoid it looks. I also have my Kimber in the nightstand. Did you ever see the movie Unforgiven? The one deputy says, " If I die in a gunfight, it's not going to be for the lack of shooting back."
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:56:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Beagles747:
I stand corrected....It seems I have some out dated info. New test and evidence shows:
Evidence increasingly shows that 5.56 FMJ rounds like M193 and M855 are not the over-penetration risk they have often been though of as. In interior wall tests, 5.56 rounds have less wounding potential after wall strikes than any common 9mm or above handgun ammunition and/or 00 Buck shotgun loads.

So hollow points would be even better for home defense. I have TAP in mine. But I keep a 45 for home defense. HK USP .45 with Tac light I have it loaded with fed hydroshocks.


-John


You guys seem too concerned with shooting through walls. I have no kids, live alone and don't really like my neighbors, anyways

Beagles747: You can't tell me you prefer 45 for defence over 5.56? I love my 45, but pistol
vs. rifle = a no-brainer.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:56:46 PM EST
Cant use my shotgun..Someone breaks in, my dogs all over the guy.. I shoot the guy, and hit my best friend?? No way..

Bad guy gets the Kimber..

John
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:58:52 PM EST
I keep my SA 1911A1 .45 loaded on the nightstand next to my bed. My preferred choice for home defense due to portability, cornering, and hiding behind furniture.

To answer the thread, I prefer a 12 ga. to 5.56 for home defense (but I keep a 1/2-loaded mag of 5.56 next to the 1911 just in case ).
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:59:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 8:00:16 PM EST by caneau]
I'm a competitive shotgun shooter as well as an AR shooter. Shotgun hands down. Why?
First, something like 80% of all self defense applications of a firearm do not involve a single round going off. There are few things more terrifying to hear and more recognizable than a shotgun being pumped.
Second, the 8 yards theory is crap. Combat shotguns use a cylinder bore which is almost the same as a skeet bore (cylinder bore is .000" constriction, skeet is .005"). I have personally used a skeet choke with bird shot to hit targets 20+ meters away. At that range, it might not blow a hole clean through to the other side, but it will do damage.
#4 versus 00 matters most on your application. Buck shot will almost certainly take a guy down with one direct hit but your pattern will be a bit smaller than with bird shot. It also will be more likely to go through walls (remember, not every wall is constructed alike). #4 will provide you with a bigger margin of error since you simply have more stuff to hit the guy with.
Honestly though, if you can't hit the guy after 8 or 9 shots with a shotgun, you better sell a few of your guns and invest in some training.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:59:55 PM EST
c'mon Lumpy...spill it!
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:00:02 PM EST
just HALF a mag??!!???

what is the matter with you???!?!?!
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:00:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:02:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By thepappymancan:
but I keep a 1/2-loaded mag of 5.56 next to the 1911 just in case ).




You have a 5.56mm 1911?


Best drunk thread, ever!
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:03:23 PM EST
The 5.56 is for the AR, Lumpy. It sits against the wall just in case I'm too lazy to bend down under the bed to grab the loaded 12 ga. (That one's for reinhardt.)
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:04:10 PM EST
And yes, I have been drinking a bit tonight, Flush.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:05:35 PM EST
dear lord, I think if I hear 'the mere sound of racking a shotgun will send them running' one more time, I'm going to puke like gary johnston.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:06:17 PM EST
America! F***, yeah!
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:07:44 PM EST
Maybe, I should re-post this on a sober Tuesday
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:08:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By bigbore:
12 gauge #4 shot



I have been saying that for years. Shotgun is better for your circumstance.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:08:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By thepappymancan:
America! F***, yeah!



That didn't take long!
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:08:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By bastiat:
dear lord, I think if I hear 'the mere sound of racking a shotgun will send them running' one more time, I'm going to puke like gary johnston.



Heh, sorry. How about the sound of the action closing on an AR or racking a handgun?
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:12:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By caneau:

Originally Posted By bastiat:
dear lord, I think if I hear 'the mere sound of racking a shotgun will send them running' one more time, I'm going to puke like gary johnston.



Heh, sorry. How about the sound of the action closing on an AR or racking a handgun?



Or the muzzle report of an AR after you pop the mofo in the head. Would that scare him away? Oh shit, nevermind; he be dead.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:16:40 PM EST
Can any of you post some "facts" to support your reasoning? If not, please make some up
(since we're obviously all drunk).

<­BR>
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:16:42 PM EST
I use a 1:7 M4 loaded with 28 rounds of 75gr TAP. Locked and loaded...there won't be any of this 'scaring them off' shit when I wake up to boarders in the house. A quick flick of white light from the SureFire, then "Walk toward the light, Jamal. God is calling you home."
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:17:06 PM EST
I am drunk too.......................................
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:28:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By Flushdraw:
Can any of you post some "facts" to support your reasoning? If not, please make some up
(since we're obviously all drunk).



Facts? We don't need no facts. This is the internet, everything said on here has to be true!

Seriously though, the shotgun stuff's just from 2 years of trap and skeet shooting. If 2 3/4" #8 birdshot out of a 26" barrel with a skeet choke can break apart a clay, it will do the same to a guy's chest, head, or whatever else you can hit. 3 1/2" buckshot will be all the more effective and the 8" less of barrel really doesn't make too much of a difference (longer barrels in trap and skeet are used for swing stability, not range or accuracy).
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:33:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By caneau:

Originally Posted By Flushdraw:
Can any of you post some "facts" to support your reasoning? If not, please make some up
(since we're obviously all drunk).



Facts? We don't need no facts. This is the internet, everything said on here has to be true!

Seriously though, the shotgun stuff's just from 2 years of trap and skeet shooting. If 2 3/4" #8 birdshot out of a 26" barrel with a skeet choke can break apart a clay, it will do the same to a guy's chest, head, or whatever else you can hit.



That's asinine, and totally not true.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:34:01 PM EST
actually, i believe that if you believe that a bad guy is inside your home, you should NOT rack the slide of your shot gun

it will give away your location if the BG is nearby and he might shoot in your direction

oh, and when you are reloading after you are completely out of shells, load your 1st shell, then rack the slide; continue loading
you do this to ensure that you are ready go ASAP
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:35:34 PM EST
Not drunk yet..but working on it..

I used to think my wilson combat scattergun tech clone was the perfect home defense package..but its now almost nine inches longer than my no-ban Bushy with a four position stock.

When you live in a shoebox...every inch counts.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:38:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 8:39:26 PM EST by armoredsaint]
can we legally get flash bangs or concussion grenades?
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:42:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

Originally Posted By caneau:

Originally Posted By Flushdraw:
Can any of you post some "facts" to support your reasoning? If not, please make some up
(since we're obviously all drunk).



Facts? We don't need no facts. This is the internet, everything said on here has to be true!

Seriously though, the shotgun stuff's just from 2 years of trap and skeet shooting. If 2 3/4" #8 birdshot out of a 26" barrel with a skeet choke can break apart a clay, it will do the same to a guy's chest, head, or whatever else you can hit.



That's asinine, and totally not true.




What is your problem? Can't you take a joke? And are you saying that a shotgun blast won't destroy anything within 10-15 yards? If so, sell your Aimpoint, buy a Nova and a box of shells, go to the range and find out for yourself.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:44:17 PM EST
Dude,

An airgun pellet or a 22 short will break a clay at 50 yards if you can hit it. Obviously neither of those will "break" a guy's chest or head. He might break wind, but that's it.

-z
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