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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/14/2005 7:04:39 PM EDT
Ok, I have read several write ups of the SOCOM 16 for entry work, kicking in doors, etc. I am wondering what someone who has actually been there thinks. I still think the added blast and recoil would be enough of a detriment that an AR would still be better.

I am an adamant gun nut, and would dearly love to own all of the fine weapons listed above, but I have never (and will never) use one in that fashion. I am a rank amateur that likes to shoot.

Do you run into enough bad guys in body armor that the 308 would be worth it? Maybe have to shoot thru a wall to stop someone? I have an M1 Scout, and I can just imagine pulling the trigger in a small enclosed room. You wouldn't be hearing for quite some time afterward. Also, while compact, it is still quite a bit heavier. And follow up shots will be delayed when compared to a 223.

Anyway, just looking for thoughts. I have no doubt that rounds on target would be more effective from a 308, but are the drawbacks worth it.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 7:27:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 7:40:31 PM EDT
SBR a PARA FAL, put a beta mag on it with a small suppressor and Voila!

Link Posted: 8/14/2005 7:56:54 PM EDT
.308>.223

But anyways, .223 will punch through body armor just as well as a .308 will. As long as you hit the person, he's probably not going to get up (especially with the .308). Go with whatever you think is more comfortable. A .308 is not going to be any better than the .223 if you can't hit him. Personally, I prefer the punch of the .308. It makes me feel more manly.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 8:06:01 PM EDT
Ever fired a short barreled 308? especially in a building? Very loud (not that a .223 isn't deafening too mind you) and the recoil is pretty bad-I'd rather have a .223 for in-house work; easier to control and faster follow up.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 8:29:59 PM EDT
Them ARs is unreliable BB guns! Get yerself a real rifle! Yah can hunt with a 308.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Couch-Commando
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 2:28:56 AM EDT


One of these plus a suppressor as ANY of the choices would need for interior work.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 4:28:17 AM EDT
I would choose an M4 before I use a 308. Smaller package more rounds. It is not the size of the round that matters, it's hits.

YMMV

Max

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 5:27:17 AM EDT
Have you hefted one of these .308 rifles, try pushing thru a house with one of 'em.
Go with the AR, nice and light, it'll be your better choice when you're twisting corners.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 5:51:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By YardDogOne:
Have you hefted one of these .308 rifles, try pushing thru a house with one of 'em.
Go with the AR, nice and light, it'll be your better choice when you're twisting corners.




+1
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 6:40:22 AM EDT
If he is wearing soft armor, 5.56 will blow through it. If he has Level IV hard armor, it will stop 7.62 as well as 5.56. Shotting through walls intentionally is a really bad idea unless you know exactly where he is. 7.62 will penetrate a lot of walls and you are endangering everyone in its very long path.

I am assuming this is a hypothetical question only. You aren't law enforcement are you? If you are, and you are part of or going on an entry team, you should already know this info. If you aren't, what kind of an entry team are you talking about? Raiding local crack houses for extra cash?
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 6:45:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 6:46:11 AM EDT by phobia]
The lethality of the 5.56mm projectile is greater than the 7.62mm projectile at normal combat ranges, due to the tendency of the lighter projectile to tumble or shatter on impact. In summary, the 5.56mm NATO provides greater firepower and effectiveness than the larger and heavier 7.62mm NATO. 5.56-mm NATO ammunition weight only 47% as much as 7.62 mm NATO ammunition.

From the ammo oracle.

Quicker follow up shots and better terminal ballistics would leave me to believe a M4 would be better for CQB.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:28:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By phobia:
The lethality of the 5.56mm projectile is greater than the 7.62mm projectile at normal combat ranges, due to the tendency of the lighter projectile to tumble or shatter on impact. In summary, the 5.56mm NATO provides greater firepower and effectiveness than the larger and heavier 7.62mm NATO. 5.56-mm NATO ammunition weight only 47% as much as 7.62 mm NATO ammunition.

From the ammo oracle.

Quicker follow up shots and better terminal ballistics would leave me to believe a M4 would be better for CQB.



+1
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:08:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 8:09:13 AM EDT by chewbacca]
+1 on the M4 for all of the above reasons.

Additionally, with the M4 you have:

shorter overall length
more versatile mounting systems (for Surefires, vert grips, etc...)
Less wall penetration (mitigates chances of collateral damage)
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:56:32 AM EDT
Dorsai,

Armchair only!! I am in medicine by profession. If I ever kick down a door, it will be to get a cheeseburger !!!!

Just for info purposes. I like anything black that goes bang. Especially the AR.

Doc
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:14:25 AM EDT

Misquoting the Ammo Oracle!!! The shame!

The reason for .308 entry rifles is even the .223’s “fail” on occasion. Doped up 300 pound ex-cons don’t always drop “FAST ENOUGH” with one round of .223 and might return fire and kill you. Notice I use the term “fail” if the bad guy can still return fire for one second. By the time you get off two or three rounds the bad guy could have rounds all over you as well.

155 grains of fragmenting TAP beats 110 grains of fragmenting TAP, which beats 75 grains of fragmenting TAP, which in turns beats 55 grains of M193. They all may kill with one shot, but which do you think will cause the bad guy to cause a thud on the ground faster?

If you will only have time to fire one shot before a round is launched at your head, which bullet will you choose?
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:30:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
Misquoting the Ammo Oracle!!! The shame!

The reason for .308 entry rifles is even the .223’s “fail” on occasion. Doped up 300 pound ex-cons don’t always drop “FAST ENOUGH” with one round of .223 and might return fire and kill you. Notice I use the term “fail” if the bad guy can still return fire for one second. By the time you get off two or three rounds the bad guy could have rounds all over you as well.

155 grains of fragmenting TAP beats 110 grains of fragmenting TAP, which beats 75 grains of fragmenting TAP, which in turns beats 55 grains of M193. They all may kill with one shot, but which do you think will cause the bad guy to cause a thud on the ground faster?

If you will only have time to fire one shot before a round is launched at your head, which bullet will you choose?



5.56 fails more often than that, and it doesn't take a subject with the criteria you labeled (300 pound agressive male under the influence of narcotics) to prove it .
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:34:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By phobia:
The lethality of the 5.56mm projectile is greater than the 7.62mm projectile at normal combat ranges, due to the tendency of the lighter projectile to tumble or shatter on impact. In summary, the 5.56mm NATO provides greater firepower and effectiveness than the larger and heavier 7.62mm NATO. 5.56-mm NATO ammunition weight only 47% as much as 7.62 mm NATO ammunition.

From the ammo oracle.

Quicker follow up shots and better terminal ballistics would leave me to believe a M4 would be better for CQB.




And now for the section that you omitted :



These comparisons however, do not consider the fact that the SS-109 uses a semi-armor piercing, steel-cored projectile, while the 7.62mm ball uses a relatively soft antipersonnel, lead-cored projectile. A semi-armor piercing 7.62mm caliber projectile, using second generation technology as the SS-109, would easily outperform the smaller SS-109 projectile in penetration tests at all ranges. With respect to barrier and fortification penetration tests, the 7.62mm ball projectile can consistently penetrate two test building blocks, while the SS-109 semi-armor piercing projectile cannot penetrate a single block.

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:56:41 AM EDT
16" fal can make a somewhat practical and very effective entry weapon, particularly with a slightly shortened para stock. With the advent of the "Krink" flash suppressor muzzle blast shouldn't be too horrible, although ANY rifle round fired indoors is LOUD. It all depends on your environment if 7.62x51 would be a better choice. For some barricade or anti-vehicular applications 7.62 would be vastly superior to 5.56.

If you have access to the archive server (I think you have to be a team member) this topic (and further comments here ) has already been discussed in a little different context.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 11:46:15 AM EDT
Lay a SOCOM 16 next to a 16" FAL and a M4 and the SOCOM is not that compact. Even the new DPMS M4 .308 with the 16" barrel and six position stock has more length than a FAL.

.308 or .223 will be very loud indoors. But follow up shots are the same.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 12:08:51 PM EDT
Well in my defense I was was thinking of regular FMJ rounds at pretty much point blank range.
I love my M1A but I would much rather use my M4gery in my house(not that I want have to make that desision any time soon).
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 12:19:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 12:29:35 PM EDT by Robert2011]
It should also be pointed out that when ammo was being tested for the Ammo Oracle, the wood table the gel blocks were place on had to be replaced when a .308 155gr TAP round fragmented through the gel and destroyed the table.

The poor stopping .308 bullet the .30 cal bashers keep pointing to is a FMJ design and is JUST ONE BULLET TYPE that was tested.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 12:39:07 PM EDT
Well, I definitely wasn't thinking about the TAP type ammo. That makes quite a bit of sense.

Doc
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 12:42:32 PM EDT
223 with TAP ammo would work just as well as the SOCOM m1a 308
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 4:21:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Firelotus:
223 with TAP ammo would work just as well as the SOCOM m1a 308



BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:47:11 PM EDT
I had a Para Congo 50:63 with a 16.25" barrel- I traded it for a Remington 700 total customized. My reason, once you go with that length of barrel in .308 your velocity suffers quite a bit on a heavy weapons system so much so you could just buy an AK and have about the same results. Remember energy transferred is Mass X Velocity. An AK will do slightly more velocity with a smaller 123 grain projectile and a .308 with that barrel length is pushing a 165gr projectile at a lesser velocity than an AK round. The AR is the best for barrel length because it retains velocity and you can opt for heavier 69 and 77 grainers for knockdown. Plus a full .308 twenty round clip weighs nearly twice that of a full 5.56 thirty round clip. The only thing I will say about the FAL is the reliability and shear ruggedness of the system, you can drop it, beat the shit out of it, and it will run, just close the gas system off.

FAL's have their place but because of their weight you're better off with one with a full 21" barrel and some optics. Otherwise chopping it down you can just buy an AK and it will do just the same.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 11:26:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 11:27:32 PM EDT by Detslider]
If there is so much concern about size and weight of a bullet for entry work and the logic that bigger is better why is that I see most professional entry teams charging in with MP5 variants? They seem to think that 9MM is sufficient. I love my M4 (go ahead and flame me for not calling it an M4gery, but since it says M4 on the upper and lower I think I can get away with it) but if I hear a bump in the night I'm much more likely to reach for my Springfield XD.

Edited for spelling
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:38:47 AM EDT
Reliable, controllable high rate of fire with low noise and flash are what makes a successful entry weapon.

I was issued an MP5 back east and for me it set the standard in how a Entry Weapon should perform

Link Posted: 8/16/2005 10:47:44 AM EDT
More and more these days the teams that use the MP5 are switching over to .223. They don't all have the money or motiviation to do that unilaterally and immediately though.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 10:55:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:11:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Creeper:
I had a Para Congo 50:63 with a 16.25" barrel- I traded it for a Remington 700 total customized. My reason, once you go with that length of barrel in .308 your velocity suffers quite a bit on a heavy weapons system so much so you could just buy an AK and have about the same results. Remember energy transferred is Mass X Velocity. An AK will do slightly more velocity with a smaller 123 grain projectile and a .308 with that barrel length is pushing a 165gr projectile at a lesser velocity than an AK round. The AR is the best for barrel length because it retains velocity and you can opt for heavier 69 and 77 grainers for knockdown. Plus a full .308 twenty round clip weighs nearly twice that of a full 5.56 thirty round clip. The only thing I will say about the FAL is the reliability and shear ruggedness of the system, you can drop it, beat the shit out of it, and it will run, just close the gas system off.

FAL's have their place but because of their weight you're better off with one with a full 21" barrel and some optics. Otherwise chopping it down you can just buy an AK and it will do just the same.



Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:34:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 12:35:36 PM EDT by Duffy]

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By AK_Mike:
More and more these days the teams that use the MP5 are switching over to .223. They don't all have the money or motiviation to do that unilaterally and immediately though.




MP5 is in an era by gone... more and more preps are wearing armor, MP5 is unlikely to defeat armor...s..



Preppy guys are trading in their Ralph Lauren stuff for body armor?
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