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Posted: 10/28/2004 12:04:24 PM EDT
Okay, we know that TC contenders can go pistol to carbine, so long as 16+" barrel assembly is used.
This transaltes to ARs as well, correct?
My current train of thought leads me to a new idea (I haven't seen it addressed before).
Take a 10.5 pistol and add a 5.5" long flash hider, add buttstock and you have a simple one upper carbine/pistol set-up.
Is there anything I am missing here?
I know that a rifle would require that the FH be welded on, but as a pistol, it shouldn't require it ,as you can go back and forth, right?
If you believe otherwise, please explain and cite references.
I'd like to have an Ar pistol, and I'll put it my CCW for turds'n'chuckles, but honestly, I can't justify having the silly monster. Now if I can have a convertible....

Link Posted: 10/28/2004 12:15:17 PM EDT
Don't even think of puting a stock on it if the suppressor is not permanently attached!!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 1:26:28 PM EDT
If you really want to do this you're best bet is to get an AR lower that is on the books from the manufacturer as a pistol (I think LAR has one), this is important otherwise forget it. Then get two uppers, a 16"+ and a pistol length one. Lastly get a Magpul M93 (or similiar). When you want to change from rifle to pistol, pull off the extending part of the Magpul stock so only the tube is there and then stick on the pistol upper. To go from pistol to rifle pull off the upper FIRST, then put on the collapsible part of the stock and rifle upper. Under no circumstances put the pistol upper on the lower with the full stock attached. Sounds a little stupid, but it will keep you out of jail.


I've put a little thought into this myself lately, but where I live my only option is to SBR it.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 1:52:11 PM EDT
Once you change from pistol to a rifle or carb. You cant change back. You are going to need 2 different lowers.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 2:18:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 2:52:20 PM EDT
guess my next lowers will be 4473d as pistols so I can use them as either instead of just rifles.



God !!! laws sucks........ Ecspecialy stupid ones.........
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:09:18 PM EDT
After looking more closely, I find that uppers come in 10 1/4", so it'd have to be an 11.5" =either 4.5" or 5.5" FH, both available from Bushmaster.
I understand you can have 2 separate uppers, but i am trying to make space in the gun safe and keep my wallet full. If this can legally be done, it wll be significantly cheaper ($90 for buttstock, $15 for FH).
So, again, can anyone ite a source that would show it to be illegal?
I will contact ATF about it, but that could take months for an answer, so i figured I'd come here first.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:34:47 PM EDT


You can't have one upper. The flash suppressor would have to be PERMANENTLY attached to the smaller barrel to make it a legal length of 16+ inches in rifle mode.




Originally Posted By gunmonkey:
After looking more closely, I find that uppers come in 10 1/4", so it'd have to be an 11.5" =either 4.5" or 5.5" FH, both available from Bushmaster.
I understand you can have 2 separate uppers, but i am trying to make space in the gun safe and keep my wallet full. If this can legally be done, it wll be significantly cheaper ($90 for buttstock, $15 for FH).
So, again, can anyone ite a source that would show it to be illegal?
I will contact ATF about it, but that could take months for an answer, so i figured I'd come here first.

Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:38:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By viper5194:
guess my next lowers will be 4473d as pistols so I can use them as either instead of just rifles.




I personally believe this to be a grey area. From my understanding it has to 'manufactured' as a pistol lower.



God !!! laws sucks........ Ecspecialy stupid ones.........



I disagree. I find it fascinating.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:01:34 PM EDT
orionmkii is correct. You cannot do it with just "one" upper without permanently attaching a flash hider long enough to satisfy the 16" law. If the pistol upper is 16" then it's not much of a pistol is it?

I build a 7.5" pistol from a Model1 Kit and a lower that was shipped from the manufacturer as a "virgin" lower and recorded as a pistol by my local FFL dealer. I later wanted an SBR so I am putting my paperwork through and paying $200 for the tax stamp to have the lower on my 16" Bushy Modular recorded as an SBR. When the paperwork is approved I can then switch the 7.5" upper back and forth between Pistol and SBR. That is the only way I know how to accomplish what gunmonkey (and I) want to do.

MadDog
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 9:51:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:03:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By orionmkii:
I personally believe this to be a grey area. From my understanding it has to 'manufactured' as a pistol lower.



Again, false. As long as it has never had a stock attached, you can build it into a pistol. It should be transferred to you from the FFL as a pistol or pistol frame, following any and all applicable state laws for pistols.

-Troy



+1

Been there, done that!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:23:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By orionmkii:
If you really want to do this you're best bet is to get an AR lower that is on the books from the manufacturer as a pistol (I think LAR has one), this is important otherwise forget it. Then get two uppers, a 16"+ and a pistol length one. Lastly get a Magpul M93 (or similiar). When you want to change from rifle to pistol, pull off the extending part of the Magpul stock so only the tube is there and then stick on the pistol upper. To go from pistol to rifle pull off the upper FIRST, then put on the collapsible part of the stock and rifle upper. Under no circumstances put the pistol upper on the lower with the full stock attached. Sounds a little stupid, but it will keep you out of jail.


I've put a little thought into this myself lately, but where I live my only option is to SBR it.




This is EXACTLY what I am going to do. pistol lower, M93, and 2 uppers. One 10.25" upper and my 20" upper. Then I am going to make a toolbox with a custom foam to carry it. The ATF said a CAR buffer tube does not make a stock.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:35:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CFII:

The ATF said a CAR buffer tube does not make a stock.



You have a link or something in writing to show this? Not trying to be confrontational but this contradicts other info that I have read regarding ar pistols.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:55:41 PM EDT
Sure,

"My ATFE agent Mary Jane Humphrey, Louisville KY just contacted me and with good news. She got in contact with the NFA branch and she said that they confirmed, the use of a CAR buffer tube/receiver extension is NOT a butt stock and does NOT make it an SBR."

from this link
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=200876&page=6

3rd post from the top.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:59:08 PM EDT
this would be pretty sweet if it was legal

did this on photoshop



i tried to put a verticle grip and a aimpoint on it but it looked goofy and i forgot to put a 30 round mag on it
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 11:36:21 AM EDT
Why don't they just get rid of this dumbass law? You can have a pistol with a 2"+ barrel... 36" if you wanted; but a rifle can't be under 16". This is suppose to do what? Bureaucracy and stupidity at it's finest.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 1:18:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:18:21 PM EDT

Again? 'Personally believe', 'my understanding'?


Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By orionmkii:
I personally believe this to be a grey area. From my understanding it has to 'manufactured' as a pistol lower.



Again, false. As long as it has never had a stock attached, you can build it into a pistol. It should be transferred to you from the FFL as a pistol or pistol frame, following any and all applicable state laws for pistols.

-Troy

Link Posted: 10/29/2004 8:57:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By Buey:
Once you change from pistol to a rifle or carb. You cant change back. You are going to need 2 different lowers.



This is absolutely FALSE. Please do your homework before giving legal advice.

www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m25


(M25) If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does this constitute possession of an NFA firearm? [Back]

Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However, certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser "Broomhandles" and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the NFA as collectors' items. [27 CFR 179.11]



A pistol can be made into a rifle and back again all you want, as long as it is always in legal configuration.

A rifle (a gun that started out with a stock) cannot be made into a pistol.

-Troy




Hey Troy I beleive I did my homework and...

Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches).

What is described above is a rifle. Which is what ATF was getting at here.

The question possed above is hardly germain to what we are talking about. It is a question about whether it will be an NFA weapon, not whether you can take it back and forth.

ATF answers questions just as narrowly as is possible, which is depicted perfectly above.

I don't have the inclination to go through the green book tonight, but I have been counseled on several occasions that you can make a pistol out of a typically rifle receiver as long as it has never had a shoulder stock afixed to it.

It doesn't need to be "registered" as a pistol, although when I get blank receivers in I will post some on the books as "pistols" in case someone wants one that way. It is not registered though, just logged.

If it has had a stock it cannot be returned to a pistol.

Give me sometime and I will look it up again.

kentlik 07, 08, SOT

PS. Why are so many here like attack dogs? Legal advise, guy was just trying to help a brother out and keep him out of trouble.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 9:55:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 12:52:54 PM EDT
After reading US v T/C Contender again, it looks like the SCOTUS agrees with the original court,s finding that a permanently attached flash hider qualifies as measurable barrel length, but not if it is mearly threaded on. So it appears that this idea will not legally fly.
I guess it was worth a try to find a way to save a few bucks.
Back to the drawing board...
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 3:11:28 PM EDT
So theoretically my new Mega Lower which was transfered to me as a "reciever only" not as a pistol or a rifle could be used to make a pistol, and if I used a carbine buffer tube I could just slip on a buttstock when I want to put on a rifle upper? This is very confusing... I'm going to SBR one of my recievers anyway but I just wanted to clarify this point..

Thanks

-sc
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 4:41:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By salaciouscrumb:
So theoretically my new Mega Lower which was transfered to me as a "reciever only" not as a pistol or a rifle could be used to make a pistol, and if I used a carbine buffer tube I could just slip on a buttstock when I want to put on a rifle upper? This is very confusing... I'm going to SBR one of my recievers anyway but I just wanted to clarify this point..

Thanks

-sc




Yes. Use a pistol upper/plain buffer tube, then change uppers, and slip on the buttstock.
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