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Posted: 8/21/2004 8:28:48 AM EST
Will I be able to legally put together a AR pistol after the ban, with front hand guards and with no weight restrictions?
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 9:36:31 AM EST
YES!
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:24:33 AM EST
a pistol will still need to go on some sort of license, no? anything under 16" barrel length will still be regulated, and there is still an overall length requirement, for a rifle that is.... If thats what your asking....
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 2:00:34 PM EST
you can do it, it needs to be registered as a pistol
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 2:02:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By avengeusa:
you can do it, it needs to be registered as a pistol



How does that work? We don't have pistol registration in my state.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 3:29:09 PM EST
MUST BE NICE
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 7:22:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By avengeusa:
you can do it, it needs to be registered as a pistol



How does that work? We don't have pistol registration in my state.



Funny...... last I saw, WA has PISTOL registration.





If you want an AR pistol, talk to Eagle Firearms www.eaglefirearms.net They'll sell you a stripped lower for a pistol. Have the list on the invoice it is a pistol lower. When your transfer FFL gets it, on the 4473, fill out the pistol instead of rifle. It shall and will be treated as if you purchased, for example, a stripped 1911 frame.

If the state which you live has pistol registration, the form is filled out, but it is usually listed as a stripped frame. As stated, it is like if you were to buy a 1911 stripped frame....


Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:53:00 AM EST
thanks thats what I needed to know. My FFL needs to transfer it to me as a pistol right? and once a pistol always a pistol right? I couldn't use a reciever that I was sold to me as a rifle.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:43:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 2:59:09 PM EST by THETOADINPA]
MY UNDERSTANDING IS, TO BE A PISTOL IT WOULD HAVE TO BE TRANFERED AS A PISTOL.
BUT---IT COULD BE CHANGED TO A RIFLE (BARREL LONGER THE 16", FIXED STOCK)

THOMPSON CENTER CONTENDERS AND ENCORES ARE CHANGED FROM PISTOLS TO RIFLES AND BACK ALL THE TIME.
BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU CAN CHANGE A RIFLE (THAT STARTED OUT LIFE AS A RIFLE) INTO A PISTOL.
PISTOL TO RIFLE YES, RIFLE TO PISTOL NO NO NO.

CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:14:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By mutineer:
thanks thats what I needed to know. My FFL needs to transfer it to me as a pistol right? and once a pistol always a pistol right? I couldn't use a reciever that I was sold to me as a rifle.




In regards to the red....
The truth, the jury is out. "Experts" say, all you need is a stripped receiver, even if it was 'pappered' as a rifle...... as they quote 'letters' stating as long as the stripped receiver never had a butt stock attatched.....

Pistol to rifle, okay.... but rifle to pistol a no no.

Other people have said that it has to be logged at the manufactuer as a pistol, not just a stripped receiver. I have read just about every thread that has been put about pistols on AR15.com (so as long as I found it ). I have talked to manufactuers and they said as long as the receiver is stripped, never has been built into a rifle, it can be made into a pistol. BUT, it falls down to the individual who purchases the reciever to aid in prooving it was stripped...it's authenticity. That is how the BATF covers its tail.... by saying that it has to be proved it was stripped. That is my understanding of all the 'stuff on this topic' I have read about for the last XX years. I am not an expert, no pretend to be.

This is what I did:
After researching and reading and talking to people who I trust, I obtained an AR stripped lower for a build (getting ready for Sept 13 ). I started by emailed a few dealers inquiring on a stripped lower for pistol build. Most replied that the stripped receivers they "have" are for rifles and were logged as rifles..... I didn't push the issue about how any new stripped lower could be used, regardless of 'lable'.

I found, after contacting Eagle Firearms, that they conducted transfers for AR pistol lowers. This was when they "Stag" line just came out, and was on special. I informed them of my intentions and they said no problem, as they had done some in the past. I asked, on the invoice, if it would be possible to clearly state on there that it was "Stripped lower- pistol" or to that affect. Before confirming the order, I contacted my transfer FFL and informed them of the pending deal, just in case they might have issues (ye never know). No problems on their end.

When the lower arrived at my dealer, the invoice listed it as a pistol. Now, when filling out the 4473, instead of 'long gun', the pistol is checked and filled out accordingly.... if I recall, in the description, they put "stripped receiver" somewhere. Get your phone call, pay your transfer fee and out the door.

Now, for states that have "handgun" registration, the state form is filled out also. If you state does not have a seperate handgun registration, quit reading here . My state does, so the state form was filled out.

I took an extra step. Since I know the dealer well, I asked, if I could have a copy of my state pistol registration form, as proof that it was a pistol. Now, you could ask for a copy of your 4473, but it all depends on your FFL.....

The above account is what I have seen posted by many other people on AR15.com who have build AR pistols. Be it a manual cycled action or for a 22LR....... What they did to "paper" the lower is identical.


A side note: This fact may or may not be known by most. At the time, this is what it was done with the 4473.... they remain at the FFL dealer. The 'phone call check' recored expires in XX days and I don't recall what info is exchanged off the top of my head. The 4473 can end up at the ATF, but under a few circumstances. One, the dealer goes out of business, all 4473 are sent to the BATF. If a dealer stays in business for more then 25 years, the 4473's he filled out his first year of business can be disposed of. Thats' right, after 25 years, they can get rid of the first years years worth of 4473's, so I understood from my former FFL buddy. BUT, the log book w/ your driver's lincese number and SN is till sent when they go out of business. Two, the ATF comes and gets them for some special reason...... So, if you buy something in 2004 and is papered as a pistol, in 2029 the 4473's "expire". But as stated, you will still be in the log book..... guess that is why they say 25 years, as most FFL's prob don't last that long.....

That is why I asked personally would like a copy of 1) state pistol form and/or 2) copy of the 4473 showing it was papered as a pistol.


The long thread reply..... and if anyone has an issue of my "opinion", feel free to add your comments.....




Link Posted: 8/22/2004 2:32:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Kaliburz:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By avengeusa:
you can do it, it needs to be registered as a pistol



How does that work? We don't have pistol registration in my state.



Funny...... last I saw, WA has PISTOL registration.




Washington does have pistol registration weather or not anyone thinks they do or not... That is what the 3 part form handgun application is for that you fill out when purchases a pistol. 1 part to the DOL, one part to the sheriff, and one files with your 4473. To build a "stripped lower" into a pistol, from what I have read in in the law books, it must be sold to you as a pistol lower IE the paperwork you do needs to state pistol. At that point you can build a pistol with it. The 4473 does not require you list the firearm/part as a stripped lower. Rifle/Longgun or Pistol/Handgun are your choices. Some states treat rifles and hanguns the same in which case it shouldn't matterr what you build, but if handguns are treated different in you state I would suggest that you make sure it is logged as a pistol lower and papered as such....

A little CYA goes a long way...


Cheers
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 3:09:57 PM EST
OK
NOW I WANT TO BUILD AN AR-15 PISTOL
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 4:20:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 4:21:23 PM EST by fq1234]

Originally Posted By THETOADINPA:
MY UNDERSTANDING IS, TO BE A PISTOL IT WOULD HAVE TO BE TRANFERED AS A PISTOL.
BUT---IT COULD BE CHANGED TO A RIFLE (BARREL LONGER THE 16", FIXED STOCK)

THOMPSON CENTER CONTENDERS AND ENCORES ARE CHANGED FROM PISTOLS TO RIFLES AND BACK ALL THE TIME.
BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU CAN CHANGE A RIFLE (THAT STARTED OUT LIFE AS A RIFLE) INTO A PISTOL.
PISTOL TO RIFLE YES, RIFLE TO PISTOL NO NO NO.

CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG



100% correct! Pistol to rifle okay, rifle to pistol is very bad...

You must use a virgin reciever to build a pistol. It would be best to get a brand new stripped receiver and have the paperwork done as a pistol.

Once a rifle, always a rifle.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:17:43 AM EST
Tagged
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 7:42:50 AM EST
Here is more info on building an AR-15 pistol...

quarterbore.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32

I posted most if not all of it on these forums but I got tired of looking for the old posts time and time again... I have an AR-15 pistol as shown at the link and mine is curently a bolt-action but she will be semi-auto in a couple weeks!
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 9:12:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
Here is more info on building an AR-15 pistol...

quarterbore.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32

I posted most if not all of it on these forums but I got tired of looking for the old posts time and time again... I have an AR-15 pistol as shown at the link and mine is curently a bolt-action but she will be semi-auto in a couple weeks!



Excelent Sir!

Ya know, with all these questions on pistols, maybe one should contact a moderator and make a thread that is tacked??????
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 10:33:01 PM EST
I second that. It answered all my questions. Also, Stag Arms was my first choice.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 7:01:22 AM EST
Can you have a forward grip on a pistol, or will it be considered a AOW then??
MIKE
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 7:13:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By mk23hk:
Can you have a forward grip on a pistol, or will it be considered a AOW then??
MIKE



Please see: www.quarterbore.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31

The BATFE has said that it is an AOW and must be registered as such... the courts have disagreed and there are examples that go contrary... see the link!
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:58:50 AM EST
WOW, had to do some serious reading there.
Thanks, Quarterbore.
MIKE
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 4:54:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 4:54:40 PM EST by _DR]
Can some one who has a 7.5" or shorter barrel AR15 pistol comment on accuracy at normal pistol ranges (5-25 yards). I want to build a stag arms pistol but wanted to get some feedback on actual accuracy. I realize frangible ammo like SP or JHP is needed due to muzzle velocity being too low to cause fragmentation of FMJ, but what kind of groups could I expect at 5,10,15 and 25 yerds with a 7.5" or even a 5" barrel, say, on benchrest resting on a sandbag. Is a 1/9 twist enough? I can't seem to find any short barrels in 1/7 twist.


Thanks for any input
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 6:28:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/28/2004 4:09:20 AM EST by Quarterbore]
You may need to find advise from someone with a M-16 and a very short upper as there just isn't many pistols out there...

Now, FWIW, I had a correctly built 22LR upper for my M-16 that used a 5.5-inch .221 barrel and I could shoot honest 1.5-inch groups at 50-yards with that! At 25-feet we used to shoot flies off the target backer...

Remember that an AR-15 pistol has the same advantages of an AR-15 rifle in that you can change uppers for a whole new cartridge and it could include all the cartrdges available in the AR-15 if you take the time to get it running correct.... Now, a 50 BMG pistol might be a tad bit over the edge but a 22LR, 9mm, and 45 ACP might be fun!
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 8:37:00 PM EST
I was thinking of a 9mm one myself. The 32 round sten mag hanging down would be my forward pistol grip. On second thought it might be better to go the SBR route (more versitile in different mods).
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