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Posted: 4/24/2014 11:24:36 AM EDT
I've been working on my AR now for a little over a year as I could afford parts. I'm down to finishing the upper only.

So, now I can finally afford a barrel. Originally I was simply going to get the cheapest one I could find in 1:7 twist. Found a few available at below $100.

Then, I stumbled across nitride processed barrels at $135 - so, I'll buy one of them since it is unlikely I'll ever end up shooting out a nitride barrel.

Of course, now I run into a quandry. I can get a M4 16" barrel carbine gas system at 1:7 twist OR an 18" HBAR barrel mid gas system at 1:8 twist. Both are the same price. There is no difference in price for the rest of my upper either since I'm putting a 10" free float hand guard on the rifle regardless of which barrel.

So, which one to choose? Should I just flip a coin?
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 2:12:01 PM EDT
The 16" will serve you well in a variety of situations...
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 4:40:15 PM EDT
What do you plan on using the gun for?
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 4:49:21 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By jimbojo:
What do you plan on using the gun for?
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General everything. For hunting I have my hunting rifle. The AR is for general use. Can have to run off wolves and coyotes with it or simply shoot and kill them if they are after my sheep. This is why I won't go with a 1:9 twist. 55 grain bullets are the least likely to get used in the AR. The way I see it though - there really isn't much of a trade off between a 1:7 16" barrel or a 1:8 18" barrel. In each case a bullet fired will get 2+ full rotations down the length of the barrel with the only difference being a small amount of additional velocity upon exit from the 18" barrel. The spin will be marginally slower with the 1:8 vs the 1:7 twist. Overall I just don't see any major difference between the two options.
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 5:21:46 PM EDT
link for barrels?
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 10:04:42 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bossman3:
link for barrels?
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I'll post it AFTER I order mine on Saturday - they only have 3 of the 18" and 4 of the 16" in stock. I don't want them all bought before Saturday! :)

Link Posted: 4/25/2014 2:18:10 AM EDT
I'd go to riflegear.com and buy 16" or 18" FN CHF barrel for 15% off right now. Oh wait I did that already tonight.
That 16" FN would serve you well. And the 18" would be just that much more accurate. And it will last youa lifetime.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 3:33:02 AM EDT
I don't thing the twist ratio will make a difference, but the longer barrel should increase the overall performance of the cartridge, right? I also am no a big fan of the M4 profile barrel for a general purpose rifle.

Jimbo
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 6:52:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2014 6:53:57 AM EDT by Lug1]
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Originally Posted By jimbojo:
I don't thing the twist ratio will make a difference, but the longer barrel should increase the overall performance of the cartridge, right? I also am no a big fan of the M4 profile barrel for a general purpose rifle.

Jimbo
View Quote
It will make a difference if he is going to use really long projectiles. He would be better with a faster twist if he is going use 77gr projectiles, for instance. If he is not going to use the longer projectiles, sticking with 55gr, he is better off with a slower twist rate. A faster twist will rob of a small portion of muzzle velocity all other things being equal. The 1:8 should stabilize everything that will feed through an AR.

Please reference the Greenhill formula to find your optimum twist rate.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:27:37 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Lug1:
I'd go to riflegear.com and buy 16" or 18" FN CHF barrel for 15% off right now. Oh wait I did that already tonight. That 16" FN would serve you well. And the 18" would be just that much more accurate. And it will last youa lifetime.
View Quote


Can't afford that - those are $300 for the barrels with shipping. A nitride processed barrel will last for 11,000 rounds plus - which may as well be a lifetime for me since I'm now in my mid 50's. I'm not likely to put that many rounds through the barrel before I retire in 10 years.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:39:37 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Lug1:
It will make a difference if he is going to use really long projectiles. He would be better with a faster twist if he is going use 77gr projectiles, for instance. If he is not going to use the longer projectiles, sticking with 55gr, he is better off with a slower twist rate. A faster twist will rob of a small portion of muzzle velocity all other things being equal. The 1:8 should stabilize everything that will feed through an AR.

Please reference the Greenhill formula to find your optimum twist rate.
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Originally Posted By Lug1:
Originally Posted By jimbojo:
I don't thing the twist ratio will make a difference, but the longer barrel should increase the overall performance of the cartridge, right? I also am no a big fan of the M4 profile barrel for a general purpose rifle.

Jimbo
It will make a difference if he is going to use really long projectiles. He would be better with a faster twist if he is going use 77gr projectiles, for instance. If he is not going to use the longer projectiles, sticking with 55gr, he is better off with a slower twist rate. A faster twist will rob of a small portion of muzzle velocity all other things being equal. The 1:8 should stabilize everything that will feed through an AR.

Please reference the Greenhill formula to find your optimum twist rate.


My point was the difference on twist ratios between the 1:7 and the 1:8, in regards to the specific POU he had mentioned earlier.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:50:46 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By WHSmithIV:


Can't afford that - those are $300 for the barrels with shipping. A nitride processed barrel will last for 11,000 rounds plus - which may as well be a lifetime for me since I'm now in my mid 50's. I'm not likely to put that many rounds through the barrel before I retire in 10 years.
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Originally Posted By WHSmithIV:
Originally Posted By Lug1:
I'd go to riflegear.com and buy 16" or 18" FN CHF barrel for 15% off right now. Oh wait I did that already tonight. That 16" FN would serve you well. And the 18" would be just that much more accurate. And it will last youa lifetime.


Can't afford that - those are $300 for the barrels with shipping. A nitride processed barrel will last for 11,000 rounds plus - which may as well be a lifetime for me since I'm now in my mid 50's. I'm not likely to put that many rounds through the barrel before I retire in 10 years.
I am in no way being a douche bag here, I am asking you a serious question. Keep in mind I own 3 melonite barrels myself. How do you know a nitride barrel will last you 11,000 round plus? Have you put that many rounds on a nitride barrel before? Do you know the differences in the different nitride processes? Do you know different processes yield different wear results?
I will give you this ahead of time so you don't think I am busting your balls cause I am not. I have at least two threads on here asking guys how many rounds they have on their nitride barrels. I ask cause I wanna know how long they last. I will tell you owning 3 of them, I have no idea how many rounds you can get out of one. I know the meloniting process should yield good results. But you get a lot of manufacturers who just say nitride. In order to get a good treatment it needs have the QPQ treatment. How you know that happens if they don't advertise it. The treatments that use only one bath and dont QPQ can fall well short of the kool aid drinking melonite hardness levels.
So I ask you again, do you know first hand a nitride barrel will last X number of rounds or is this the stuff you have read off the internet like myself? In know way am I bashing nitride barrels. This is a legit question I have. And you seem pretty confident about those numbers that is why I am asking. If I didn't come off too holier than thou I would really like to hear your response, because I am very interested in the real world of what these nitride barrels can do? And Nitride vs Melonite?
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:54:47 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WHSmithIV:


Can't afford that - those are $300 for the barrels with shipping. A nitride processed barrel will last for 11,000 rounds plus - which may as well be a lifetime for me since I'm now in my mid 50's. I'm not likely to put that many rounds through the barrel before I retire in 10 years.
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Originally Posted By WHSmithIV:
Originally Posted By Lug1:
I'd go to riflegear.com and buy 16" or 18" FN CHF barrel for 15% off right now. Oh wait I did that already tonight. That 16" FN would serve you well. And the 18" would be just that much more accurate. And it will last youa lifetime.


Can't afford that - those are $300 for the barrels with shipping. A nitride processed barrel will last for 11,000 rounds plus - which may as well be a lifetime for me since I'm now in my mid 50's. I'm not likely to put that many rounds through the barrel before I retire in 10 years.
Also I hear you on price. But with their 15% the barrel I bought yesterday was $245. Still a lot of dough. They are very proven barrels, lasting tens of thousands of rounds. I get cost conscious though. I had saved up for that barrel and had been waiting for any sale. Last night was the night.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 4:02:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2014 4:03:28 PM EDT by WHSmithIV]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lug1:
I am in no way being a douche bag here, I am asking you a serious question. Keep in mind I own 3 melonite barrels myself. How do you know a nitride barrel will last you 11,000 round plus? Have you put that many rounds on a nitride barrel before? Do you know the differences in the different nitride processes? Do you know different processes yield different wear results? I will give you this ahead of time so you don't think I am busting your balls cause I am not. I have at least two threads on here asking guys how many rounds they have on their nitride barrels. I ask cause I wanna know how long they last. I will tell you owning 3 of them, I have no idea how many rounds you can get out of one. I know the meloniting process should yield good results. But you get a lot of manufacturers who just say nitride. In order to get a good treatment it needs have the QPQ treatment. How you know that happens if they don't advertise it. The treatments that use only one bath and dont QPQ can fall well short of the kool aid drinking melonite hardness levels.
So I ask you again, do you know first hand a nitride barrel will last X number of rounds or is this the stuff you have read off the internet like myself? In know way am I bashing nitride barrels. This is a legit question I have. And you seem pretty confident about those numbers that is why I am asking. If I didn't come off too holier than thou I would really like to hear your response, because I am very interested in the real world of what these nitride barrels can do? And Nitride vs Melonite?
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Originally Posted By Lug1:
Originally Posted By WHSmithIV:
Originally Posted By Lug1:
I'd go to riflegear.com and buy 16" or 18" FN CHF barrel for 15% off right now. Oh wait I did that already tonight. That 16" FN would serve you well. And the 18" would be just that much more accurate. And it will last youa lifetime.


Can't afford that - those are $300 for the barrels with shipping. A nitride processed barrel will last for 11,000 rounds plus - which may as well be a lifetime for me since I'm now in my mid 50's. I'm not likely to put that many rounds through the barrel before I retire in 10 years.
I am in no way being a douche bag here, I am asking you a serious question. Keep in mind I own 3 melonite barrels myself. How do you know a nitride barrel will last you 11,000 round plus? Have you put that many rounds on a nitride barrel before? Do you know the differences in the different nitride processes? Do you know different processes yield different wear results? I will give you this ahead of time so you don't think I am busting your balls cause I am not. I have at least two threads on here asking guys how many rounds they have on their nitride barrels. I ask cause I wanna know how long they last. I will tell you owning 3 of them, I have no idea how many rounds you can get out of one. I know the meloniting process should yield good results. But you get a lot of manufacturers who just say nitride. In order to get a good treatment it needs have the QPQ treatment. How you know that happens if they don't advertise it. The treatments that use only one bath and dont QPQ can fall well short of the kool aid drinking melonite hardness levels.
So I ask you again, do you know first hand a nitride barrel will last X number of rounds or is this the stuff you have read off the internet like myself? In know way am I bashing nitride barrels. This is a legit question I have. And you seem pretty confident about those numbers that is why I am asking. If I didn't come off too holier than thou I would really like to hear your response, because I am very interested in the real world of what these nitride barrels can do? And Nitride vs Melonite?


I read the information from a competition shooter who tested it. He didn't expect the results he found either. Nitride vs. Melonite - Metallurgically they are basically the same process using cyanate iin a salt bath heated to 900-1100 degrees (I used to work in a metal factory that did this kind of stuff). The process does yield a much harder surface to the steel and from all indications with information that has been posted yields a better result than hard chrome lining. The nitride processing dates back tot he 1940's in Germany. They used cyanide then for it. Cyanate that is used now is much safer. Would you like the molecular structure changes also?

Link Posted: 4/25/2014 6:58:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2014 7:17:31 PM EDT by Lug1]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WHSmithIV:


I read the information from a competition shooter who tested it. He didn't expect the results he found either. Nitride vs. Melonite - Metallurgically they are basically the same process using cyanate iin a salt bath heated to 900-1100 degrees (I used to work in a metal factory that did this kind of stuff). The process does yield a much harder surface to the steel and from all indications with information that has been posted yields a better result than hard chrome lining. The nitride processing dates back tot he 1940's in Germany. They used cyanide then for it. Cyanate that is used now is much safer. Would you like the molecular structure changes also?

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Originally Posted By WHSmithIV:
Originally Posted By Lug1:
Originally Posted By WHSmithIV:
Originally Posted By Lug1:
I'd go to riflegear.com and buy 16" or 18" FN CHF barrel for 15% off right now. Oh wait I did that already tonight. That 16" FN would serve you well. And the 18" would be just that much more accurate. And it will last youa lifetime.


Can't afford that - those are $300 for the barrels with shipping. A nitride processed barrel will last for 11,000 rounds plus - which may as well be a lifetime for me since I'm now in my mid 50's. I'm not likely to put that many rounds through the barrel before I retire in 10 years.
I am in no way being a douche bag here, I am asking you a serious question. Keep in mind I own 3 melonite barrels myself. How do you know a nitride barrel will last you 11,000 round plus? Have you put that many rounds on a nitride barrel before? Do you know the differences in the different nitride processes? Do you know different processes yield different wear results? I will give you this ahead of time so you don't think I am busting your balls cause I am not. I have at least two threads on here asking guys how many rounds they have on their nitride barrels. I ask cause I wanna know how long they last. I will tell you owning 3 of them, I have no idea how many rounds you can get out of one. I know the meloniting process should yield good results. But you get a lot of manufacturers who just say nitride. In order to get a good treatment it needs have the QPQ treatment. How you know that happens if they don't advertise it. The treatments that use only one bath and dont QPQ can fall well short of the kool aid drinking melonite hardness levels.
So I ask you again, do you know first hand a nitride barrel will last X number of rounds or is this the stuff you have read off the internet like myself? In know way am I bashing nitride barrels. This is a legit question I have. And you seem pretty confident about those numbers that is why I am asking. If I didn't come off too holier than thou I would really like to hear your response, because I am very interested in the real world of what these nitride barrels can do? And Nitride vs Melonite?


I read the information from a competition shooter who tested it. He didn't expect the results he found either. Nitride vs. Melonite - Metallurgically they are basically the same process using cyanate iin a salt bath heated to 900-1100 degrees (I used to work in a metal factory that did this kind of stuff). The process does yield a much harder surface to the steel and from all indications with information that has been posted yields a better result than hard chrome lining. The nitride processing dates back tot he 1940's in Germany. They used cyanide then for it. Cyanate that is used now is much safer. Would you like the molecular structure changes also?

No I pretty well got it down. Meloniting is nitriding but nitriding is not always meloniting. There is a salt bath process, gas, and plasma. Melonite uses a quench polish quench that allows the metal two dips in the bath and allows you to achieve a 70 Rockwell. My understanding from all that I have read is the qpq process gets you the hardest and deepest coverage. So just cause you are getting a nitrided barrel doesn't mean you get the full meal deal. These are all just things I am curious about with all the new barrels on the market. I am curious because I too have only read about the potential of the barrels. I don't have a barrel with 10, 20,or 30 thousand rounds on it yet. Had no intention of offending you. Stated that clearly. Sorry if I did offend you. The only round counts I have seen was something republished and second hand over on 68forums. While I am not disputing that information there just isn't much variety of real round count information on nitrided barrels. Thanks for responding.

Oh and while there are several different nitriding processes the melonite process is yielding best results in America I think. But the Tennifer process I think is used only in Europe may get better results. Glock uses Tennifer but it's my understanding the EPA won't allow the Tennifer process to be used in America because the chemicals proprietary to that process are too volitile, hence your cyanide cyanate explanation. But the salts vary with each process.

Have you considered ar15performance.com barrels? They are more expensive than JSE but unknown who makes those. Could be good barrels. Also either PK or primary had aeroprecision nitride barrels at a good price $159 or $169.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:38:42 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lug1:
I'd go to riflegear.com and buy 16" or 18" FN CHF barrel for 15% off right now. Oh wait I did that already tonight. That 16" FN would serve you well. And the 18" would be just that much more accurate. And it will last youa lifetime.
View Quote


Wow! $245 for an FN CHF barrel. Bookmarked!

Thanks!
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 8:48:09 PM EDT
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No I pretty well got it down. Meloniting is nitriding but nitriding is not always meloniting. There is a salt bath process, gas, and plasma. Melonite uses a quench polish quench that allows the metal two dips in the bath and allows you to achieve a 70 Rockwell. My understanding from all that I have read is the qpq process gets you the hardest and deepest coverage. So just cause you are getting a nitrided barrel doesn't mean you get the full meal deal. These are all just things I am curious about with all the new barrels on the market. I am curious because I too have only read about the potential of the barrels. I don't have a barrel with 10, 20,or 30 thousand rounds on it yet. Had no intention of offending you. Stated that clearly. Sorry if I did offend you. The only round counts I have seen was something republished and second hand over on 68forums. While I am not disputing that information there just isn't much variety of real round count information on nitrided barrels. Thanks for responding.

Oh and while there are several different nitriding processes the melonite process is yielding best results in America I think. But the Tennifer process I think is used only in Europe may get better results. Glock uses Tennifer but it's my understanding the EPA won't allow the Tennifer process to be used in America because the chemicals proprietary to that process are too volitile, hence your cyanide cyanate explanation. But the salts vary with each process.

Have you considered ar15performance.com barrels? They are more expensive than JSE but unknown who makes those. Could be good barrels. Also either PK or primary had aeroprecision nitride barrels at a good price $159 or $169.
View Quote


No offense taken. The problem is only cost. I've been building this rifle on the tightest of budgets. It looks like when it's done I will have completed it for just a hair over $500. That's with a Mag Tactical Systems lower receiver, Aero Precision stripped upper (given to me free), DPMS lower parts kit. CAA 6 position butt stock kit (also given to me free), 7x 30 round P-mags + 2x 30 round Israeli mags. 10" free float quad rail, Pegasus Defense BCG and Magpul MBuS sights (not some chinese knock off crap - the real Magpul sights). It's just the barrel now and some small stuff I need ... charging handle, forward assist, gas tube.. that kind of stuff. After the barrel it's only inexpensive parts left. I was going to go ahead and buy a 1:7 twist parkerized barrel for $89.95 (or $92.95) but then I ran across the nitride barrels at reasonable cost and figured I'd go ahead and spend the extra $40. I know where I can get a chrome lined barrel for $149.99..... I'll take a nitride barrel and save $15.

I've spent a lot of time finding parts inexpensively. I won't be able to start another AR build until probably a year after this one is finished. Then I'll start working on a 300 Blackout pistol build.

Here's a comparison write up by Matt Pitchon:
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3795644.0



Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:05:54 AM EDT
That's awesome man! Cool you have stayed the course and built this thing I your terms with patience. Interesting read on the link. I have had this similar discussion before and guys come off of being a melonite hater. LOL. I'm actually a melonite searcher. I can't wait to find somebody to tell me hey I got 50k rounds out of my barrel. Or to achieve that on my own. I have 3 XD pistols, I love them fit my hand great, others are allowed to hate. I have 3 melonited barrels. Collectively I don't have 5k on them yet. Based on everything I've read I believe in it. Having faith and having documentation are just different things. You would think sometime soon some manufacturers would post something like a filthy 14 article fore a nitride barrel. Till then I will keep my mixture of CHF and melonite barrels. I really can't wait until nitrided CHF barrels become available. That will be the ticket, maybe, I think. They are out there now but you can't buy them stand alone. Spike Compressor, LWRC.
Good luck getting your barrel. I hope it come together for you quickly.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 5:40:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By WHSmithIV:
I've been working on my AR now for a little over a year as I could afford parts. I'm down to finishing the upper only.

So, now I can finally afford a barrel. Originally I was simply going to get the cheapest one I could find in 1:7 twist. Found a few available at below $100.

Then, I stumbled across nitride processed barrels at $135 - so, I'll buy one of them since it is unlikely I'll ever end up shooting out a nitride barrel.

Of course, now I run into a quandry. I can get a M4 16" barrel carbine gas system at 1:7 twist OR an 18" HBAR barrel mid gas system at 1:8 twist. Both are the same price. There is no difference in price for the rest of my upper either since I'm putting a 10" free float hand guard on the rifle regardless of which barrel.

So, which one to choose? Should I just flip a coin?
View Quote

Yes. Flip a coin, no need asking what others would do since it is your rifle. I would do 18" but I am not you.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 5:54:42 AM EDT
I have a Mossberg barrel on a beater stick that is actually a pretty decent barrel.

Link Posted: 4/26/2014 5:58:01 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By durtychemist:

Yes. Flip a coin, no need asking what others would do since it is your rifle. I would do 18" but I am not you.
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Originally Posted By durtychemist:
Originally Posted By WHSmithIV:
I've been working on my AR now for a little over a year as I could afford parts. I'm down to finishing the upper only.

So, now I can finally afford a barrel. Originally I was simply going to get the cheapest one I could find in 1:7 twist. Found a few available at below $100.

Then, I stumbled across nitride processed barrels at $135 - so, I'll buy one of them since it is unlikely I'll ever end up shooting out a nitride barrel.

Of course, now I run into a quandry. I can get a M4 16" barrel carbine gas system at 1:7 twist OR an 18" HBAR barrel mid gas system at 1:8 twist. Both are the same price. There is no difference in price for the rest of my upper either since I'm putting a 10" free float hand guard on the rifle regardless of which barrel.

So, which one to choose? Should I just flip a coin?

Yes. Flip a coin, no need asking what others would do since it is your rifle. I would do 18" but I am not you.


+1
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 6:11:14 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
I have a Mossberg barrel on a beater stick that is actually a pretty decent barrel.

https://4b1e874935ea5d25a97e-f099844d0e354c7ab50c55a966be6870.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/product/resized/XATIB556M4A.jpg
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Very good friend has a mossberg too. He shoots the snot out of it. Been waiting on them to come back around. Somebody was saying they sucked the other day in a thread. I hadn't heard or seen that. Guessing you recommend yours?
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 6:41:50 AM EDT
It depend on whether the extra weight of the HBAR is an issue. For hunting/animal shooting there can be benefits ballistically to the longer barrel but the profile will be a bit heavier. 1-7 vs 1-8 twist is a non-issue to me, shouldn't see any problem shooting heavy bullets in either.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 7:53:46 AM EDT
I would get the HBAR.
Then I'd use a carbon fiber FF tube to help offset the weight of the HBAR.

That's how I made my 16" heavy barreled upper manageable if I needed to hike around with it.

I don't care for the M4 profile or lightweight barrels in general. YMMV

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