What would you rather have for a "camp gun" while on a fishing trip in bear country, an AR 15 or a 12 guage pump with buck shot or slugs?

Ruger Super Redhawk .44 mag or .454 Casull in stainless

......because if all you're worried about is bear and 2-legged animal protection, that will get the job done without a hitch in the woods.  It is compact (compared to long guns), very rugged and very reliable.  Easier to wear on your hip when taking a piss too instead of carrying the shotgun and standing it against a tree out of the splatter radius.

Quoted: Ruger Super Redhawk .44 mag or .454 Casull in stainless ......because if all you're worried about is bear and 2-legged animal protection, that will get the job done without a hitch in the woods.  It is compact (compared to long guns), very rugged and very reliable.  Easier to wear on your hip when taking a piss too instead of carrying the shotgun and standing it against a tree out of the splatter radius.

that's what slings are for



but i do agree w/ you

AR in .458 SOCOM

Quoted: Quoted: Ruger Super Redhawk .44 mag or .454 Casull in stainless ......because if all you're worried about is bear and 2-legged animal protection, that will get the job done without a hitch in the woods.  It is compact (compared to long guns), very rugged and very reliable.  Easier to wear on your hip when taking a piss too instead of carrying the shotgun and standing it against a tree out of the splatter radius. that's what slings are for but i do agree w/ you

True!

+1

I would never use an AR for bear defense. Bear's hearts beat really slow, and if you punch a little hole in it, the bear's system can continue for a much longer while than many other mammals (slow heart rate means the body can go a long time between beats, and breaks down much slower than the fast heart beat animals. Take a person, stop their heart and they pass out in seconds, not so with a bear).

So, you have to do massive dammage to the animal to stop the attack. Hit the CNS or put huge trauma into the organs. I think (could be wrong) the minimum round most suggest for bear defense is 200 grain at 1000 fps. A 10mm 200 grain was right on the line.

Having the gun close all the time is also key. I take either a Glock 10mm or a SW 44 mag. This is for Black bear country, if I was going north where they get bigger, I would take more gun...

A 12 gauge w/ slugs and a Springfield 1911 .45...if you are only trying to defend yourself. If you were hunting I'd go with something different. A shotgun is a lot better than an AR under 20 yards.

height=8

Quoted: What would you rather have for a "camp gun" while on a fishing trip in bear country, an AR 15 or a 12 guage pump with buck shot or slugs?

If those are the two options (i.e. owning/taking a big bore handgun is not an option) and "bear country" is the critical consideration, the 12 gage with reduced recoil slugs would be my choice.

Inside 50 yards the ballistics and accuracy would be appropriate.  If your camp-mate was actually being chewed on and you had to take a shot (or vice versa) the accuracy of the AR would be fine, but the attention-getting foot-pounds of force on the slug would be superior.  If you could be assured everything near the bear (or beyond) would not be harmed by a couple of 32-38 caliber balls, the buckshot would be OK too, but sometimes those details are hard to manage.

Try the reduced recoil slugs on a 55 gal drum of water at 10 yards and see what you think.

Without question it would be a 12 gauge with slugs.  Anyone that says differently does not know  firearms.  Some have offered different options, but based on your question it is the 12 gauge.  The AR-15 in its original caliber would be a very poor and dangerous choice.

Quoted: Quoted: What would you rather have for a "camp gun" while on a fishing trip in bear country, an AR 15 or a 12 guage pump with buck shot or slugs? If those are the two options (i.e. owning/taking a big bore handgun is not an option) and "bear country" is the critical consideration, the 12 gage with reduced recoil slugs would be my choice. Inside 50 yards the ballistics and accuracy would be appropriate.  If your camp-mate was actually being chewed on and you had to take a shot (or vice versa) the accuracy of the AR would be fine, but the attention-getting foot-pounds of force on the slug would be superior.  If you could be assured everything near the bear (or beyond) would not be harmed by a couple of 32-38 caliber balls, the buckshot would be OK too, but sometimes those details are hard to manage. Try the reduced recoil slugs on a 55 gal drum of water at 10 yards and see what you think.

Buckshot would merely serve to piss off one of the larger bears (Grizzly, Kodiak, etc.) and may not slow down a black bear in time either.  If you must take a shotgun, use slugs as said but leave the reduced recoil option out and go for "magnum" slugs sans hollowpoint.  If the weapon cannot be managed properly with real slugs you might want to stay away from bears anyway .

Most bear attacks will require a rapid response on your part and the delivery of several large and deep-penetrating projectiles to the vitals of the bear to keep your situation from deteriorating rapidly.  As such, if you really think there is a possibility of a bear attack you should invest in the double action revolver "hand cannon" of some form.

Even that may not cut it, and more still your Remington 870 may not be fast enough into action in such a situation.

in this particular situation, i'd definately go with the shotgun.  loaded with brenneke rottweil slugs, of course.

If those are my choices, 12ga with slugs.  You'd be an idiot to take a regular AR against a bear.  Maybe one in .458 SOCOM, or one of the other big-bore calibers, though.

+1 on the shotgun.

if you were in fact attacked by a bear, it would be well under the 100yd mark. for this i would choose a larger caliber with more lead than longer distance/higher accuracy less lead.

It appears that something of a consensus regarding equipment and general projectile type may be developing among the choices given.

As you determine the ammunition specifics, I would encourage you to buy each ammunition type under consideration and spend some time at the range on "bear sized" targets at "campsite" ranges (distances).  That probably goes without saying.  

I would further suggest that you evaluate your performance on these targets with your shotgun from a few unconventional shooting positions.  First on the list would be prone; because there is a reasonable chance you will be down if the issue ever comes up.  Face down, face up, shooting left to right and right to left across your chest.  Progress to kneeling, on one side, whatever you feel plausible and can afford in ammunition (many of these shots will be a buck-a-piece).

Choose the ammunition that you can deliver with two "A" zone hits in reasonable succession from awkward positions and poor support.  The chances that you will be delivering this ammunition from a standing position with two hands on the gun, and the buttstock firmly against your shoulder exist; but that may not be the majority of scenarios for the situation you describe.  You need to know what happens, particularly if your shotgun includes any tacticool features like a folding stock or receiver-mounted ammo carrier, a flashlight, blow-dryer, etc.

Include in your consideration your likely campmates.  A few rounds practice in preparation for a camping trip is always fun.

he
www.remingtonle.com/ammo/ss_rrs.htm

www.corbon.com/

www.quickshoot.com/articles/tame.html

Now go find a 3-gun match to see what you know!

If you are in a situation where you need to shoot a bear, you are by definition in a very short ranged situation (30 yards or less) and you need to get the most lead on target at the greatest available velocity in the least amount of time.

Of the two choices, a 12 ga with slugs would be the first choice.  If you use an AR, use one with a fixed stock as it will make it more useful in fending off the bear as he mauls you after you empty the magazine into him with no visible or immediate effect.  5.56mm NATO is among the world's worst caliber choices for a bear repellent.

A a hot loaded 44 mag pistol is also a good choice.  Unfortunately, many people who carry .44 mags do not seem to be comfortable with the recoil and use mid-range loads.  With an angry bear, you want as much nergy and penetration as possible.

A lever action in a largre caliber is also a decent choice.  .45-70 and .444 Marlin are great cailbers for short range bear defense and .375 winchester is not bad and comes in a  lighter and smaller rifle.   The benfits of a large bore rifle are vastly better penetration than a pistol caliber with lots of momentum, diameter, and stopping power.  

.50 Beowolf offers near .45-70 terminal ballistics and would be what I would want to use in an AR if I had to use an AR, but I would not mess with irrellevent stuff like more readily suppressible subsonic loads.  Again, you want as much lead on target as fast as possible.

AR-15 in 458 SOCOM.  Will the 458 fit in a C-Mag?

You guys must have all missed the episode of National Geographic "Explorer" recentlyhatOh and don't climb a tree...

Quoted: If those are my choices, 12ga with slugs.  You'd be an idiot to take a regular AR against a bear.  Maybe one in .458 SOCOM, or one of the other big-bore calibers, though.

+1 on that!

Quoted: You guys must have all missed the episode of National Geographic "Explorer" recently. It was very interesting and focused a great deal on bear attacks. From what they say your best deffense really is not to shoot themn but to use that bear repellent. I know that sounds like tree huggin hippie sh*t (and I'm all for shooting anything that attacks you, man or animal) but it really sounded solid. Apparently bears olfactory (sp?) senses (their sense of smell) is so great they can literally smell things up to 100 miles away. So basically bear repellent is industrial pepper spray and really F's up a bears whole world! So maybe you could spray them and daze them while you concentrated on shot placement with whatever firearm you decided on. Oh and don't climb a tree...

Yeah...but what if its windy? Besides, the range on most pepper sprays is about 15 yards, tops. You want an 800lb grizzly that close to you?

Personally, I'll take my Saiga 12 and some 10 round mags full of slugs

height=8

Quoted: You guys must have all missed the episode of National Geographic "Explorer" recentlyhatOh and don't climb a tree...

That reminds me of that joke:

The National Park Rangers are advising hikers in Glacier National Park and other Rocky Mountain parks to be alert for bears and take extra precautions to avoid an encounter.

They advise park visitors to wear little bells on their clothes so they make noise when hiking. The bell noise allows bears to hear them coming from a distance and not be startled by a hiker accidentally sneaking up on them. This might cause a bear to charge.

Visitors should also carry pepper spray just in case a bear is encountered. Spraying the pepper into the bear's face will irritate the bear's sensitive nose and it will run away.

It is also a good idea to keep an eye out for fresh bear scat so you have an idea if bears are in the area. People should be able to recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear scat.

Black bear droppings are smaller and often contain berries, leaves, and possibly bits of fur. Grizzly bear droppings are much larger and tend to contain small bells and smell like pepper.

AR.

Next question.

we actually have large bears here.  shotgun with slugs, 45-70 lever action/.50 beowulf, revolver.  i got some 420gr FMJ for the beowulf, havent loaded them yet.  powerbelt also makes 420 and 530gr steel tipped dangerous game bullets, expensive though.  i want max penetration for grizzly.  many of the old timers like the 375 HH up here.

eta .458 socom as well.

Seeing as it is a defensive situation (2 or 4 legged) and short range (you are in the woods after all), I'd be happy with either a 12ga with magnum slugs or .458 (or .50 Beowolf) in an AR.  You've got about the same number of chances (rounds) with either weapon.  Maybe a little more versatility with the AR (change uppers), faster reload with the AR, but at a bit more expense for the upper and ammo vs 12ga.  So in my mind and using the rounds mentioned, it comes down to which firearm are you more comfortable using.

Quoted: Quoted: You guys must have all missed the episode of National Geographic "Explorer" recently. It was very interesting and focused a great deal on bear attacks. From what they say your best deffense really is not to shoot themn but to use that bear repellent. I know that sounds like tree huggin hippie sh*t (and I'm all for shooting anything that attacks you, man or animal) but it really sounded solid. Apparently bears olfactory (sp?) senses (their sense of smell) is so great they can literally smell things up to 100 miles away. So basically bear repellent is industrial pepper spray and really F's up a bears whole world! So maybe you could spray them and daze them while you concentrated on shot placement with whatever firearm you decided on. Oh and don't climb a tree... That reminds me of that joke: The National Park Rangers are advising hikers in Glacier National Park and other Rocky Mountain parks to be alert for bears and take extra precautions to avoid an encounter. They advise park visitors to wear little bells on their clothes so they make noise when hiking. The bell noise allows bears to hear them coming from a distance and not be startled by a hiker accidentally sneaking up on them. This might cause a bear to charge. Visitors should also carry pepper spray just in case a bear is encountered. Spraying the pepper into the bear's face will irritate the bear's sensitive nose and it will run away. It is also a good idea to keep an eye out for fresh bear scat so you have an idea if bears are in the area. People should be able to recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear scat. Black bear droppings are smaller and often contain berries, leaves, and possibly bits of fur. Grizzly bear droppings are much larger and tend to contain small bells and smell like pepper.

Quoted: You guys must have all missed the episode of National Geographic "Explorer" recently. It was very interesting and focused a great deal on bear attacks. From what they say your best deffense really is not to shoot themn but to use that bear repellent. I know that sounds like tree huggin hippie sh*t (and I'm all for shooting anything that attacks you, man or animal) but it really sounded solid. Apparently bears olfactory (sp?) senses (their sense of smell) is so great they can literally smell things up to 100 miles away. So basically bear repellent is industrial pepper spray and really F's up a bears whole world! So maybe you could spray them and daze them while you concentrated on shot placement with whatever firearm you decided on. Oh and don't climb a tree...

I have heard this also, but for every report I read/hear about how good the stuff is, I read a contradictory one. Another Disc Chn show had another bear expert saying the spray was very inconclusive. They sprayed it on the ground and bears came and rolled in it (this was filmed on the show). I totally agree that their olfactory systems are sensitive, and that bear spray is is an OC atom bomb (tested some one time and nearly killed my hiking crew of 6), but I dunno, if it's legal, I'm carrying a big gun in bear country...

Also a very valid point made about being down wind. As mentioned I have first hand experience with what it did to ME, and I would have been hard pressed to surmount any kind of fight against a bear that didn't retreat after spraying him and me getting the worst of the it.

Quoted: AR. Next question.

You can't be serious.

If I was worried about Bears I'd use Slugs in the 12 gauge
On Two-legged predators I'd use some OOO Buck

12 guage 00 buckshot wouldn't be enough for a bear you think?

+1 on the 12GA. I'd feel better with my 870 with slugs in bear country than my AR.

Will

375 H&H

700 nitro express

An M1 Garand, just because I feel warm and fuzzy lugging an old war horse around. If you're really paranoid, you can bring along a bayonet. So when you run out of ammo you can kill em the old fashioned way.

But on a serious note, a good 44 mag mountain gun will do for both varieties of attackers, and that fire extinguisher size oc sprayer.

A light weight 12g full of slugs, M1 tactical comes to mind

Most of the bears in my area are on the small side. No grizzly or polor bear's in nv. I keep a 12ga. with slugs as a camp gun. And a Sig 220 .45 when hikeing. More likely than not if you shoot a bear in self defence around here on the(CA) side of border it would be cheaper to get mauled than deal with the fines and lawsuits from PETA. Just make sure the bear is found with some crack.

I'd feel perfectly comfortable with my M4...w/77gr SMKs.  I can pump alot of rounds into a bear within a VERY short amount of time.  I've hunted them with a compound bow...an AR would be even better.


ARCAPTN

12ga....unless the bears are numerous and cordinating an attack

Quoted: If you are in a situation where you need to shoot a bear, you are by definition in a very short ranged situation (30 yards or less) and you need to get the most lead on target at the greatest available velocity in the least amount of time. Of the two choices, a 12 ga with slugs would be the first choice.  If you use an AR, use one with a fixed stock as it will make it more useful in fending off the bear as he mauls you after you empty the magazine into him with no visible or immediate effect.  5.56mm NATO is among the world's worst caliber choices for a bear repellent. A a hot loaded 44 mag pistol is also a good choice.  Unfortunately, many people who carry .44 mags do not seem to be comfortable with the recoil and use mid-range loads.  With an angry bear, you want as much nergy and penetration as possible. A lever action in a largre caliber is also a decent choice.  .45-70 and .444 Marlin are great cailbers for short range bear defense and .375 winchester is not bad and comes in a  lighter and smaller rifle.   The benfits of a large bore rifle are vastly better penetration than a pistol caliber with lots of momentum, diameter, and stopping power.   .50 Beowolf offers near .45-70 terminal ballistics and would be what I would want to use in an AR if I had to use an AR, but I would not mess with irrellevent stuff like more readily suppressible subsonic loads.  Again, you want as much lead on target as fast as possible.

I think you left out the PKM light machine gun. Might want to bring a Javelin anti-tank along too, just in case.

Silly rabbits....................get both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, ok, I know this is the internet, but still, some people here have been reading too many gun magazines.  Others seem to have not read any.

As much as I love the AR platform, it is NOT what you want in bear country.

And, as sexy and cool as they are, a big bore handgun is about as much use as an air bag in a 100+mph crash - a whole lot better than nothing, but not exactly a cure all.

You say "bear country" - so I am going to assume BEAR COUNTRY.  Down here in AZ, a 9mm will suffice to turn a bear and a properly loaded .357 will drop one.  They are tiny and usually not aggressive.

But, go NORTH - think Idaho and above - and you are going to meet real bears.  An OC spray designed for bears is the best first defense.  Hey, if it works, all is well.  If it doesn't - I want something with true power.

One of my Gunsite instructors was a paramedic in AK, and he always had a pistol gripped 12ga loaded with slugs while hiking.  Something like that or a stoutly loaded Marlin .45-70 would fit the requirements.  Neither of those are what you would pick if hunting bear, but are small and light enough to be emergency tools.

As a third line of defense, THEN your big bore wheel gun comes into play.

Of the two choices I would take the shotgun with slugs.

My preferred weapon is a 16" trapper carbine in 44mag, with some pretty stout bear loads.

When Im up in Maine and newhampshire in the summer I take my Colt SAA 7 1/2 barrel in .45,LC and a 16" winchester carbine in the same caliber. AR or 12 GA>....its the shotgun with slugs..I like breneke slugs.

Here's my experience with Bears in Bear Country (Alaska):

I have had a few Defense of Life and Property shootings in the line of duty, here is a quick summary. Keep in mind when you are shooting for DLP you shoot until they are down so they don't run off into the woods wounded.

7.5 foot Brown Bear, used a 45/70 Guide Gun with 540gr. Garrett rounds, it took four rounds to drop and ran approximately 10 yards, shot from about 75 yards away. All shots went into the vitals. Average sized bear.

7 foot Brown Bear, used a 375 H&H Mag with 300gr. Swift A-Frames, it took two rounds to drop and another two to kill, bear ran about 10 yards, shot from about 5 yards away. First three shots into the vitals, final into the head. Small bear.

8.5 foot Brown Bear, two shooters used 375 H&H Mags with 300gr. Nosler Partition and 300gr. Federal Soft Point, it took seven rounds to drop and the bear ran across a road about 30 yards, shot from about 15 yards away. all rounds went into the vitals. This was a heavy, healthy bear.

6.5 foot Brown Bear, 375 H&H Mag with 300gr. Nosler Partition, one round to the vitals to drop, one round to the head to kill, bear dropped in its tracks, shot from about 75 yards away. This one was tiny.

If you take a look at the sectional density of the rounds used you will find they are all .300 and over. That means they will penetrate reliably into the vitals and heavily armored head of a Brown Bear. Now compare the S.D. of a 300 gr. 44 Mag slug or 480 gr. 12 guage slug. These projectiles lack the S.D. to penetrate reliably through the heavy bone, tough muscle and connective tissue of a Brown Bear. After witnessing what my 375 H&H didn't do (namely drop a bear in its tracks consistently). I personnally would feel more comfortable with pepper spray. Because I know one thing is for sure, if you don't get to the brain with your first shot and the bear wants to take you out. You will be dead.

In my opinion, for Brown bear in Alaska. Of the two choices probably 12 guage slugs would be bare minimum. AR with 50 Beo or 458 SOCOM might also work in a pinch. An AR-10 might even be a good choice with the 180gr. MRX load. However, let me say that if you are expecting any of these to drop a large Brown Bear immediately you are fooling yourself. If they want to they will maul you while they are slowly dying.

Happy fishing!

375 H&H would be my minimum gun. The big bears will kill you, they will not quit until they are dead, or you are.

Every year I shoot mid-western whitetail deer.

I usually use 12 ga. brenneke slugs,  or 240gr.44mag (hot) handloads.

I've also used 45super and 45ACP.

Sometime these deer run when they are hit.  I remember about 5 years ago I shot a deer thru the vitals,  the brenneke slug exited thru the shoulder joint.

That deer ran about 100 yards. When I grabbed her front leg to pull her out of the brush,  the joint started ripping apart and the whole front leg almost came off.

That animal ran 100yards, at top speed, on 3 legs.

As I see it, the difference is, these animals are smaller,  and they run AWAY from the shooter !

Your 44mag,  870,  or AR are not going to zap a bear like a lightning bolt.

The lack of effect is amazing until you forget about hollywood and see the truth.

if my choices in bear country are a 12 gauge or a pistol. I am staying home and watching the nature channel in my hiking boots.

Unless you think you are that Grizzly Man wacko you better bring bigger. Anyone bringing an AR15 has obviously drunk the koolaid and doesn't understand what a bear is. Speaking of Grizzly Man am I the only one who watched that and wanted him to get eaten about 5 minutes into the movie? At 15 minutes I wanted to turn it off at 17 minutes I wanted to watch it hoping to see him get eaten.

You don't use a hammer to turn a screw do you?

Bear Defense = Heavy caliber short range weapon.

I would go with the 12 gauge with magnum slugs. You want max penetration. More than likely if a bear was charging you are only going to get one or two shots so you can go with an SBS for lighter weight/easier to back.

Bringing a AR in the backcountry for bears is like taking a wiffleball bat to a gunfight.

IMHO I would go with a .44 Mag or .454 Revolver. You have a weapon that is easy to pack, unobtrusive, and a proven bear stopper. You can also fire it point blank with a bear on top of you (not recommended).

A 12 gauge shotgun is still one of the most veratile weapons in the world. A pump action with rifle sights can go from a short range light game gun to a medium range large game gun just by loading a different shell.

' loaded with brenneke rottweil slugs, of course'

Simply the best. Shoot them in a cylinder bore. They will knock your shoulder out, particularly in a non-auto, but that's a good trade-off for your life. You could carry a Mossberg 500 with 18" barrel and standard magazine - this should be a fairly light package. You could also carry a few rounds of different ammo to cover a few more bases.

AR vs.12 ga? Should be title AR vs. 1 ounce slugs/bullets. We all know that 1 ounce is 437 grains. So I'm a little disappointed in you guys..............Not one of you that mention a handgun stepped up the to the plate and mention the 440 grains of pure .50 cal...............Coming out of my 4 inch 500 S&W Mag. handgun at 1350 fps (I tested on my chronograph) will put a world of hurt on anything that pumps blood. However, regardless of what the weapon of choice is, it's bullet placement that counts first and foremost. Here's my little one ounce slug tosser at bottom with some of his friends.

Quoted: However, regardless of what the weapon of choice is, it's bullet placement that counts first and foremost.

To a point, but shooting a bear in the head with a bullet that dosent penetrate will just have a more pissed-off bear chewing on you.

Shoulder-fired weapons are easier to get fast accurate hits with due to the longer sight radius.

I am curious as to how fast you can get a followup shot with that little "hand cannon"? I know that shooting a Ruger Super Redhawk in .44 Mag throws you off target quite bit when it recoils.



My Idea of an excellent camp gun:

Marlin 1895GS in .45/70
Although I would probably have the barrel cut back to 16", put a rear ghost ring on it and cut 1-2" off the stock so it mounts quicker.