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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:28:36 PM EST
Okay well I have a complete 11.5" upper that I know I can get from a local dealer. I am waiting on a stripped lower receiver as we speak along with a lower parts kit. The buffer tube is what I am wondering about? You can not use a standard CAR buffer, correct? It has to be either a pistol buffer or someone was talking about a Bushmaster "Stubby" buffer tube? So once I get that settled, it's just putting it together and that is it? Nothing special that needs to be done to own one, now that the ban has ended?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 6:58:07 PM EST
Legally, you cannot just assemble an AR pistol just because you have that desire. Anything with a barrel shorter than 16" is regarded as a short-barrelled rifle (SBR) unless the lower upon which it is assembled was previously registered as a handgun or you have the ATF documentation for a SBR. Be careful.

The recently sunsetted AWB has absolutely nothing to do with your ability the build a "pistol".
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:03:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By Russ4777:
Legally, you cannot just assemble an AR pistol just because you have that desire.



Why not?



Anything with a barrel shorter than 16" is regarded as a short-barrelled rifle (SBR) unless the lower upon which it is assembled was previously registered as a handgun or you have the ATF documentation for a SBR.



The myth about registered lower as a handgun is NOT true.

There are no handgun registration required by ATF. This is a MYTH. It is NOT written in law.

Providing state and local law allows it, anyone can make a AR15 pistol without ANY registration at all. Grab a stripped lower, add lower parts, get short barreled upper and attach it. That is ALL that is required.

The lower cannot have had a stock on it before it became a pistol.

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:19:52 AM EST
[quoteThe myth about registered lower as a handgun is NOT true.

There are no handgun registration required by ATF. This is a MYTH. It is NOT written in law.
]

Well just to be on the safe side the lower I am waiting for is coming from CMMGinc.com, they have lowers specifically marked for this purpose. But no one answered my other quesitions either?

Does anyone know where I can obtain some laws for the individual states and see what if any laws that would inhibit building an AR pistol?
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:28:30 AM EST
Starting Tuesday, here in Missouri at least, you must have a pistol permit from the sheriff's department to buy a stripped lower. It is only considered a long gun if a stock is attached. I was told this was consistent with the law prior to the ban in '94. So if you're building a pistol it will be registered, or if it is to be a rifle you better have a butt stock with you when you pick it up from the ffl or buy one from him.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:58:20 AM EST
Try your states website. They should have an online database of the laws in your state. Course how you would find the laws themselves I don't know. But it would be a start. Or if a college near you has a law school then you could go to their law library and look them up as well.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 5:13:02 PM EST
Well I think I know where I may be able to obtain the laws for the State of Nebraska. What I don't know is what exactly I am looking for? I would suppose any reference to pistols, but does it specifically reference AR type conversions? Examples of other state laws would help I'm sure?
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:55:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By wheredidthatcomefrom:
Does anyone know where I can obtain some laws for the individual states and see what if any laws that would inhibit building an AR pistol?



GO to ATF web site and they have a PDF file of AL the states regulations. Youc an even order the book (about 1" thick). I just got two of them a while back.

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:59:30 PM EST

OK. I took the time to do the footwork for you...

See: www.atf.gov/firearms/statelaws/24thedition/index.htm

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:28:06 PM EST
No one has answered the buffer question yet. I also need this information, albeit my lower was run through as pistol to cover my ass.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:37:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Russ4777:
Legally, you cannot just assemble an AR pistol just because you have that desire. Anything with a barrel shorter than 16" is regarded as a short-barrelled rifle (SBR) unless the lower upon which it is assembled was previously registered as a handgun or you have the ATF documentation for a SBR. Be careful.

The recently sunsetted AWB has absolutely nothing to do with your ability the build a "pistol".



WRONG

All you need is a lower that has never been made into a rifle

ANY new stripped lower will do

There is no such thing as 'handgun registration' in most states...

There is no such thing as federal hadngun registration...

Link Posted: 9/21/2004 3:07:27 PM EST
Well I reviewed the law and there is documentation on SBR rifles, but there is nothing that I saw written about an AR type pistol? Should there be specific writings on this? What exactly would I be looking for?
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 4:44:38 PM EST
I would say as long as there is no stock on the gun abnd it would be unreasonably diffifult to attack a stock to the CAR buffer it would be OK.

IANAL
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 5:12:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
All you need is a lower that has never been made into a rifle



Actually, the above is incorrect.

A pistol can be made into a rifle and then back an unlimited times.

The lower must have not been FIRST made into a rifle before being a pistol.

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 6:17:17 AM EST
Look at it this way. If your state requires you to register a pistol then you need to register your AR pistol when you finish making it.

As far as using a CAR buffer tube on a pistol. I would say you could use a CAR buffer tube. However you might want to do something to the tube to prevent someone from slipping the stock back on, lest they think it is just a SBR with the stock taken off.

I have a AR pistol but I do not like the pistol buffer. I was thinking about using a CAR buffer tube but I was going to drill a hole cross ways through the underlug of the tube and insert a 'D' ring or long pin. This would prevent a stock from being put back on it.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 5:10:09 PM EST
At one point I remember reading a post about someone saying the use of a Bushmaster or RRA stubby tube (used on the stubby stocks). However is this tube not a regular length rifle tube, with a shorter stock? Though if it is not configured to take say a CAR stock then this might work as well (as you would not be able to slap a stock on immediately). My biggest worry with the pistol tube is that I will have functioning problems. If someone could shed some light on that point, that may make or break my final decisions. Of course being legal will also make or break them as that is the most important!
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 7:02:45 PM EST
Get yourself one of those fake post-ban collapsible CAR stocks with a CAR buffer tube in it (some later ones use the full-length tubes) cut off the plastic part of the stock and use a bandsaw or other tool to lop off most of the channel with the locking position holes on the underside. $10 and a little work and you have a tubne that will accept a carbine lnegth buffer and spring but the collapsible stock can't lock into position on it.

Sound reasonable to everyone else?

Link Posted: 9/22/2004 7:51:43 PM EST
Model 1 Sales has a pistol recoil buffer kit. That is what I would use and avoid all the "what if?", problems.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 3:14:13 PM EST
I was recently looking through a book I own called "Building your own AR15", by Duncan Long. He has a short chapter on AR pistols. He talks about a few interesting points. He talks about removing the front push pin and replacing it with a pin that can be peened off, thus making it assured that the 11" upper (or less) could not be easily taken off and put on another upper thus making an SBR. I like that idea as it just adds another level of protection for me in the long run. however where in the hell can I get a push pin that can be peened off??

He also talks about getting an upper that has never been assembled on a rifle. Personally I was thinking of just taking an older complete upper and getting the barrel shortened to 11", thus making it cheaper in the long run for me. Otherwise I would have to order a kit, the latter being cheaper for me. Uppers don't have serial numbers (that I know of) so how would you know even if you bought a kit that that upper had never been assembled on a rifle?
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 10:49:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/27/2004 10:59:19 AM EST by Kaliburz]
Tag....

Well, about the buffer. I ordered the Model 1 "pistol" kit and it came w/ that buffer. I shot about 80 rounds and I am experiancing (what others diagnosed) as bolt bounce. Bascially, the spring in the "pistol buffer" set up is NOT strong enought to KEEP the bolt/carrier forward. I was experiancing mis-fires. Hammer would fall, but not set off the primer. I originally thought it was out of spec ammo, but upon refiring the questionable rounds, it went off. So I have a "Entry" stock buffer on the way.

I'm not going to worry about disabling the threads on the back of the tube. Some people pointed out that it is NOT illegal to have a plane tube on it (ie entry stock tube). Only thing that is illegal is putting a stock on a pistol w/ out the propper licese. Example was the 1911 and Glock carbine kits. The 1911 replaces the main spring housing w/ one that a stock attaches too. Once it is on there, the stock "mearly" clips on. So in reality, what is preventing someone from just putting it on a standard 1911 w/ 5" barrel??? The answer, nothing.... only the "owner/users" desire to follow the law..... That's my view. I don't intend to violate the stocked pistol rules/laws. The only time a stock will go on this is when a 16" upper is on it (or longer) to make the required min. lenght.


Edit to add...

The use of a "regular buffer" allows the use of the Colt style 9mm set up. The bolt/carrier unit in the 9mm has a steel weight inserted where the pistol buffer would incert to....so a 9mm used on a pistol AR w/ the pistol recoil tube "in theory" would not work. Later, I plan to make a 9mm upper for this pistol.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 7:20:32 PM EST
I have considered the buffer issue myself regarding a pistol build. The entry tube sounds like a great idea, except... what do you do with the rear push pin detent spring? Collapsable stock tubes have a plate that covers the back of the lower to retain that spring.

Another question... is there any (legal) problem with attaching a sling to a pistol? I thought the threaded hole at the back of an "entry" stock buffer tube would make a dandy attachement point for a sling swivel... if the detent spring issue is resolved. I also considered threading a sling swivel into the rail area on the bottom of a collapsable stock tube to prevent attachment of a stock, if that was needed (and it seems that it might be a safe plan to disable that capability)
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 8:27:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Gamma762:
I have considered the buffer issue myself regarding a pistol build. The entry tube sounds like a great idea, except... what do you do with the rear push pin detent spring? Collapsable stock tubes have a plate that covers the back of the lower to retain that spring.

Another question... is there any (legal) problem with attaching a sling to a pistol? I thought the threaded hole at the back of an "entry" stock buffer tube would make a dandy attachement point for a sling swivel... if the detent spring issue is resolved. I also considered threading a sling swivel into the rail area on the bottom of a collapsable stock tube to prevent attachment of a stock, if that was needed (and it seems that it might be a safe plan to disable that capability)



Ya know, I forgot about that point..... maybe I'll end up reordering a "car" tube....
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 8:35:54 PM EST
Curious, what's the recoil like on a .223 pistol?
I'm kinda surprised that there aren't any 9mm AR pistol kits out there (at least from what I've seen)
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 1:56:09 AM EST
Where are you getting the entry stock tube from Kaliburz??
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:04:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By wheredidthatcomefrom:
I was recently looking through a book I own called "Building your own AR15", by Duncan Long. He has a short chapter on AR pistols. ... however where in the hell can I get a push pin that can be peened off??



Instead use a screw-type front pivot pin instead of a push pin. Brownells sells at least 2 types that fits the small pin uppers (.25). Here. or one from Colt: Receiver Pivot Pin, .250", Screw Type
Use loc-tite, and the upper cannot "readily convert" a rifle or carbine to an unregistered SBR. But you shouldn't have provisions for adding a stock to a loc-tited upper/lower combination for the same reason.
(See US v. Kent for "readily convertable" discussions)


Personally I was thinking of just taking an older complete upper and getting the barrel shortened to 11", thus making it cheaper in the long run for me.


I agree that a never-assembled upper is meaningless, but the cutting of the barrel may create gas port size issues. However, the upper limit gas port size for 16" barrels is the lower limit for 11.5" barrels of the same diameter, so you may get lucky. If you go this route, don't worry about the gas port size unless you get FTE's with your favorite load.


As for a non-CAR receiver extension not holding in the detent and spring for the safety, it is a simple matter to tap the spring hole and insert a set screw. A bit of experimenting (5 mins. max) to get the spring short enough is all it'd take, and the threads would not interfere with a full length spring if you change it back later. Cost of the tap, set screw, and maybe a replacement spring later is the total cost. Don't loc-tite it; shallowly tap the hole with a standard tap (not a bottom tap) and the tappered threads will snug-up nicely without the need for loc-tite.

Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 11:18:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By DarkKnight:
Curious, what's the recoil like on a .223 pistol?
I'm kinda surprised that there aren't any 9mm AR pistol kits out there (at least from what I've seen)



Recoil isn't bad at all in a .223 ar pistol. Muzzle blast however is mind numbing with an 11 1/2" barrel. Shorter barrels are even worse.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 11:30:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 11:37:16 AM EST by CavVet]

Originally Posted By monkeyman:
Look at it this way. If your state requires you to register a pistol then you need to register your AR pistol when you finish making it.



Why????

Why do you guys make shit up sometimes???

WA has handgun registration, for NIW handguns bought from an FFL. You dont have to on face to face private party purchases, nor do you have to on 80% lowers that are finished (1911 for example).

Now why, if I am not buying a New complete pistol would I need to go to the .gov and fill out a paper?

The .fed standard says a virgin receiver that never had a stock. Thats it. RCW 9.41.090 says the form is to be filled out when purchasing a pistol from a dealer. Thats it.

There is no law that either says or implies a state pistol registration form is needed to buy an AR lower, nor to build an AR pistol. Period.


The .gov doesnt have to take anyting rom us, we give them more than they need.

Link Posted: 9/30/2004 10:43:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 10:44:10 AM EST by GaryM]
I am building an AR pistol and I will use a CAR buffer tube assy. I can't see how being able to attach a stock makes it any more a SBR than that old broomhandle I have with it's grip being milled to accept a detachable stock. Some old highpowers and colt SAA are that way too.
Just don't put the stock on the tube....


BTW, interesting point. Manufacturers do not list their lowers as being a pistol or rifle. The first time a dealer sells it and lists it in his books it becomes one or the other. The only way anyone could find out if it is a legal pistol lower is to contact the manufacturer, trace to dealer and then look it up in his books.
So if you don't ever plan on being checked on by the ATFE... well, who ever expects to get caught manufacturing an illegal SBR...

Oh yeah, my lower is on the books as a pistol lower.

Hmm.. a hypothetical:
registered as a rifle lower, assembled as such by first owner. stripped and sold to second owner who assembles it as a pistol including registering/documenting/whatever as a pistol with local LEO. What would it be then?
Or even resold by an type 1 FFL who documents it as a pistol lower. How could a person actually tell if it was originally a pistol lower? Unless you can go back to the original FFL who sold it (and since 4473s are kept by the dealers) how would one find out?
Curiouser and curiouser
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 6:32:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By GaryM:
I am building an AR pistol and I will use a CAR buffer tube assy. I can't see how being able to attach a stock makes it any more a SBR than that old broomhandle I have with it's grip being milled to accept a detachable stock. Some old highpowers and colt SAA are that way too.
Just don't put the stock on the tube....


BTW, interesting point. Manufacturers do not list their lowers as being a pistol or rifle. The first time a dealer sells it and lists it in his books it becomes one or the other. The only way anyone could find out if it is a legal pistol lower is to contact the manufacturer, trace to dealer and then look it up in his books.
So if you don't ever plan on being checked on by the ATFE... well, who ever expects to get caught manufacturing an illegal SBR...

Oh yeah, my lower is on the books as a pistol lower.

Hmm.. a hypothetical:
registered as a rifle lower, assembled as such by first owner. stripped and sold to second owner who assembles it as a pistol including registering/documenting/whatever as a pistol with local LEO. What would it be then?
Or even resold by an type 1 FFL who documents it as a pistol lower. How could a person actually tell if it was originally a pistol lower? Unless you can go back to the original FFL who sold it (and since 4473s are kept by the dealers) how would one find out?
Curiouser and curiouser



True....



Originally Posted By CavVet:

Originally Posted By monkeyman:
Look at it this way. If your state requires you to register a pistol then you need to register your AR pistol when you finish making it.



Why????

Why do you guys make shit up sometimes???

WA has handgun registration, for NIW handguns bought from an FFL. You dont have to on face to face private party purchases, nor do you have to on 80% lowers that are finished (1911 for example).

Now why, if I am not buying a New complete pistol would I need to go to the .gov and fill out a paper?

The .fed standard says a virgin receiver that never had a stock. Thats it. RCW 9.41.090 says the form is to be filled out when purchasing a pistol from a dealer. Thats it.

There is no law that either says or implies a state pistol registration form is needed to buy an AR lower, nor to build an AR pistol. Period.


The .gov doesnt have to take anyting rom us, we give them more than they need.




I'll have to look up that RCW and read it. When I transfered in my stripped lower, the dealer treated it like a pistol (like a 1911 stripped frame), so that is why a form state form was filled out.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 1:59:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Kaliburz:

I'll have to look up that RCW and read it. When I transfered in my stripped lower, the dealer treated it like a pistol (like a 1911 stripped frame), so that is why a form state form was filled out.



Here ya go, free link




RCW 9.41.090
Dealer deliveries regulated -- Hold on delivery.

(1) In addition to the other requirements of this chapter, no dealer may deliver a pistol to the purchaser thereof until:

Words, words, words, words.....



"Dealer deliveries regulated" & "no dealer may deliver a pistol to the purchaser thereof until"

'nuff said.

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:28:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 8:30:59 AM EST by Ariel]
This looks like a good designPistol from Gunbroker
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 12:35:17 PM EST
tagged
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:52:42 PM EST
Most of this could probably be cured by the following. Most of the problems I have heard with the "pistol buffer tube" have been with spring pressure, ie "crappy spring" or "weak spring". There has to be some way to get a better spring? Will a standard CAR spring not work? Too long? Could it not be trimmed back a few coils until it fits, yet still offering enough forward pressure to ensure engagement of the bolt with consistency? Just seems that a lot of this could easily be cleared up with a better buffer spring, and then we could all forget about the legality issues in regards to buffer tube this and that. I would prefer that over going back and forth over what is legal to have and not. Just wonder if anyone else has thought of this and/or experimented with it, if not well I will have to do it. Just sounds like the shorter distance between two points if you ask me. Maybe I am totally wrong and this can not be done, worth a shot though?
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 3:52:02 AM EST
I think I may have found a solution? The buffer tube on the Carbon 15 pistol. Now unless that is apart of the carbon 15 upper receiver, though I don't think it is. It appears to be another inch longer or so, than the standard pistol tube offered. Maybe this will work?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:03:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 3:05:41 PM EST by Kentlik]

Originally Posted By budam:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
All you need is a lower that has never been made into a rifle



Actually, the above is incorrect.

A pistol can be made into a rifle and then back an unlimited times.

The lower must have not been FIRST made into a rifle before being a pistol.

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com



Legally, in terms of the buffer tube, it is a non-issue. There is only one point now regarding any pistol that could become a rifle, AR or other, it can never have had a shoulder stock mounted. If it EVER had one mounted it cannot become a pistol again. Having said that, if it were not registered as a rifle during which time it had the shoulder stock mounted that would be between you and God.

This excludes any state enacted bulls**t
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 4:12:56 PM EST
That is not true. If you build it as a pistol first, you can change it to a rifle and back to a pistol all you want. That is not a violation as the first build was a pistol. If it is built as a rifle first, then you cannot convert to a pistol unless you SBR it. This is the same as with the TC Contender/Encore. If a pistol first, you can go back and forth between pistol to rifle to pistol all you want so long as you do not have the shoulder stock and the less than 16 inch barrel on at the same time. Only if it is built as a rifle first is there a problem with converting to a pistol. Stupid law, yes, but that is the law.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 9:21:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 9:23:21 PM EST by Kaliburz]
Below is a post on another thread I replied to. You might be interested in reading it..... might be a cheap(er) fix to the AR pistol recoil tube issue(s).....




Originally Posted By PALADIN-hgwt:

Originally Posted By TREETOP:
It seems to be the same diameter as a 1911 spring, but longer.

I've switched my pistol buffer out for a regular carbine buffer system in a RRA entry stock tube (with the rear threads removed so it won't mount a buttstock). This should help with reliability and also allows the upper to be removed like a regular AR without having to remove the buffer assembly first.
The downfall is it's even longer now.



Ok, my 1911 springs are 6.5 inches long, and Commander length run about 5 inches. They come in different weights. Take YOUR spring down to a local gun shop that carries 1911 style 45's. They probably will have replacement springs in the assorted weights.

Don't sweat it too much if the new one is slightly shorter, as long as it IS long enough to be under compression when assembled and will hold the carrier forward. Maybe by feel you can guesstimate about how heavy to go, or try to get one or two each side of what Model 1 supplied.

The trouble with the Model 1 kit is that you are changing several operating parameters of the Arf system simultaneously. The bolt carrier recoiling weight is lessened by deleting the normal buffer assembly. The rubber end of the buffer also helps control rebound energy normally. The forward acceleration after recoil is no longer the same as stock, and again, without the buffers weight once the carrier strikes the barrel face, energy rebound control is now different. The strength and ability to strip rounds from the magazine will also be changed. Good luck...

The Model 1 pistol buffer looks VERY SIMILAR to the one designed by Tom Provost and written of by D. Long. Back when I built MINE using a home made carbine length buffer system , BUSHMASTER factory techs told me NONE of the pistol buffer kits worked reliably to their knowledge, and apparently they had been sent several to try to "make work". They were surprised when I reported my carbine length buffer model functions 100%.

To my knowledge, I was the FIRST(1993) builder to do it my way, period. There is absolutely NO mention in Long's book about my method. And apparently no one else was willing to accept the longer length required...which was probably a good thing.

Paladin



I manged to look at the AR pistol spring vs a 1911 spring. As stated, they are similar in diamter, 7/16". The AR recoil is about 7 1/2" long (might have been longer), but it is deformed now- w/ less then 100 rounds . Any how, I'm sure that the spring is the problem. It is not strong enough to push the carrier "home" and the latch on the charging handle seemed to be the straw that broke the camel's back. It seems to hold up the carrier at the last 1/4". So, just maybe, when it's loading a round, the friction of loading is equal to the resistance of the charging handle latch holding it up.

As stated, I have another recoil tube on the way (CAR type), which I will modify. But, looking on the wolfgun springs site, the extended 1911 recoil springs might be the solution. Reading the descrption, the one as #1 is suppose to be the strongest. They can't "rate" the springs since they have to be fitted (aka cut to fit). (Under the standard sized springs, 24 or 28 pounds was the heaviest). It said that the 1911 long slide spring is required where there is a 3" space when the slide is locked back... what ever that infers.... They are listed as $9.00 each.

I know of a local store that carriers generic springs. Granted, they are not "firearm" springs, but just for testing, I might go find one that fits and isn't so "strong". Less then five bucks if I recall.....

Link Posted: 10/3/2004 9:33:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 2:18:42 AM EST

WA has handgun registration, for NIW handguns bought from an FFL.


I have never had a pistol purchased in this state get "registered" nor have i ever heard of anyone who has. When did this happen?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 3:31:55 AM EST
Just as an update and report. Yesterday was the first time out since the AWB died.

I went with a "smooth bore" rifle buffer tube and a 10 & ~" barrel (Bushy).

The tube solves the takedown pin retention problem, and gave zero function issues. She fired all day with zero hiccups through numerous shooters.

I did find out I didnt like the A2 upper, as I mounted a holosight on top of it. Just too damn high up. This pistol, with no stock is already hard enough to shoot, kinda like being constipated. You know what you have to do, its just hard to get it done.

Huntin down a flattop now. Even though I didnt like it, in the 100 yard range we were at, she was accurate to 1 MOO (Minute of orange). Went to an old gravel pit, targets are a PITA, oranges are envirofriendly. She tore ass on the oranges.

Regardless, its a toy with some purpose. It is a very compact Ar. While the 10" doesnt have the best numbers, it is indeed accurate. Overall a very very very fun toy.

Oh yeah, Vortex....sunny day in the shade, no noticeable flash.



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