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Posted: 12/18/2003 3:04:54 PM EDT
Finally, after literally months of waiting I finally got my first AR.  The months of waiting were only because of an unreliable dealer, which goes with a LONG story (and a lot of waiting).  Just to put it into perspective, I "ordered" this beast about the same time I joined the site, which as you can see, was back in June.

So as I'm sure you could guess, I was absolutely elated to shoot what I had been picturing and planning for months.  

Upon initial inspection and firing, of course I was absolutely stunned with how sweet the sucker is, but I had a couple of, well, probably stupid questions for you vetran ar-ers.

First.  I custom ordered this from bushmaster, I got a free floating forend and also a three rail gas block.  When the rifle came, I see the three rail gas block is actually touching the handguard.  Is this right? because if you ask me, it seems like it is defeating the purpose of "free floating" your barrel.

Second.  When I first fired the ar, I heard this clanging, it sounded like metal vibrating right next to me in the gun.  The first thing I thought of is that spring that I know goes in teh buttstock of the rifle.  Everytime I shoot, it makes, well, the noise of a spring knocking back and forth in the butt stock.  Is this okay, normal, something I can fix (please, after waiting 7 months, PLEASE don't make me send it back)

third.  I was admiring the reciever when I noticed something on the top of the little extension the forward assist sets into.  There is pin through it, and from this hole, there appears to be casting lines,(or a crack!!) running through the hole, a 1 inch "line" with the pin hole right in the center.  They really don't look like cracks, but I have no idea how deep they are.  What about this, some inherent to bushmaster's manufacturing process, or something I should worry about??

Sorry if this all seems a little anal, but after paying the price for a custom varminter, I'm not willing to have any "put up with"s or "well, it will probably be alright"'s, if you know what I mean.

Other than these questions, I am absolutely amazed with this thing.  I've been sitting just staring at it ever since I got it.  It's amazing, even after all the tons of pictures I've seen of rifles, that look very close to mine, it doesn't do it justice.

Thanks for any info.

Gundraw

Merry Christmas -- I know I will now
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 3:24:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 3:25:20 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Originally Posted By GunDraw:

Second.  When I first fired the ar, I heard this clanging, it sounded like metal vibrating right next to me in the gun.  The first thing I thought of is that spring that I know goes in teh buttstock of the rifle.  Everytime I shoot, it makes, well, the noise of a spring knocking back and forth in the butt stock.  Is this okay, normal, something I can fix (please, after waiting 7 months, PLEASE don't make me send it back)
View Quote


This is normal. Just the AR letting you know its happy.


third.  I was admiring the reciever when I noticed something on the top of the little extension the forward assist sets into.  There is pin through it, and from this hole, there appears to be casting lines,(or a crack!!) running through the hole, a 1 inch "line" with the pin hole right in the center.  They really don't look like cracks, but I have no idea how deep they are.  What about this, some inherent to bushmaster's manufacturing process, or something I should worry about??
View Quote

Does it look like a pin that has a gap going down it in there? If so that’s normal too. The pin is made to get smaller when driven in, and to do this it must have a gap in it.

Link Posted: 12/18/2003 3:46:20 PM EDT
Wow, already a reply,

Umm, I came back to add something I completely forgot about.

While I was shooting, all the sudden it struck me, that rattling noise is probably that damn gas block hitting the forearm!!!  It sounds like it's in the buttstock, but you know how sound travels through solid objects.  



No, , the pin doesn't have a crack, I know what you are talking about and understand the pinning methods. I'm talking about the actual reciever itself.  Where it juts out for the forward assist, there is like a manufacturing "line" through that hole the pin is pressed into!

Gundraw
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 3:52:03 PM EDT
For the
"Sproiing" noise, remove the buffer/spring and apply a light coat of oil or grease. It will eliminate the noise.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 3:59:24 PM EDT
That noise you hear is the recoil spring and buffer in the buffer tube moving back and forth during firing.  My Colt and DPMS don't make a sound when shooting, but my Armalite M15-A4 (T) goes "boinnnng" every time I shoot.  It's nothing to worry about.  Some do, some don't.  I guess it has something to do with how tightly or loose the spring and buffer fit in the tube.  Grease on the sping may or may not dampen the noise, but it won't hurt any to try.  Use a good synthetic grease like MiliTech-1 grease or other good gun grease.

Regarding the gas block touching the forend.  That is not normal.  All three of mine have free floated tubes on them and none of the gas blocks touch the forend.  Two of the forend/gas block assemblies are factory, one I added myself. You might want to call Bushmaster and as them what you can do.  If you do need to send the rifle back, you can send it back directly, you do not need to go through a dealer.

While not 100% certain without seeing it, I do think that line you see around the pin hole is a casting line.  If the line is raised it is not a crack, just a casting mark that was not buffed out all the way.  Now, if you can actually insert a dental pick INTO the line, then it would be a crack and Bushmaster should look in to it.  
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 4:00:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 4:01:35 PM EDT by Leisure_Shoot]
ROLL PIN? Is this what you have? There are several on an AR15.
[image]http://tubes.ominix.com/art/a/hardware/spring-or-roll-pin.png[/image]
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 8:23:12 PM EDT
This buffer from Olympic Arms will remove the sproing sound which is normal.

[img]http://myweb.cableone.net/uziforme/buffer.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 9:36:14 PM EDT
Hmmm.

See, originally that was my thought, it sounded just like i "thought" that buffer spring would sound.  On the other hand, after thinking about it, I was like, Hey, it's that gas block.  Personally, I'm a little scared to shoot it now. The LAST thing I want to do is mess up or bend that gas block, forend, or barrel.  (okay, maybe that's a little excessive) but at any rate, as it seems everyone agrees, that gas block is not right.

You know, you'd think for a $130 part on a $1200 rifle, they would take enough pride to put things together right.  I mean, damn, this is my first AR and [b]I[/b] even noticed this in the first 60 seconds I handled the gun.

I already wrote bushmaster to see what they have to say.  I guess we'll see.  Put 'er on the shelf till I can figure out what needs to be done.

If some AR's make that springing noise all the time, doesn't that get a little annoying??  I just find it funny that I've heard no-one talk about that on here.

No, I know what an unmachined casting line looks like, but I'd have to say, yes, you could probably pick at it with a dental pick.  AND NO, IT IS NOT THE PIN ITSELF, IT'S A CRACK IN THE RECIEVER RIGHT ACROSS THE HOLE A ROLL PIN FITS IN.

A little disappointed I won't be able to plink with my new toy.  I definitely didn't expect these kinds of thing to come up...

Thanks for the responces and info.

Gundraw
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 9:46:25 PM EDT
The spring noise is something I kinda like tell you the truth.
Think about all the American and Israeli troops who herd that sproing noise in combat.

With the cracks, I think we are all stumped. If you could get a good pic we would have it nailed in a second.

Also, go shoot your AR. Just think, blow half your face off and you can own Bushmaster [:d]
(Just kidding on that last one)
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 11:17:53 PM EDT
I know, I really need a pic.  I'll have to work on that tomorrow.  

I just feel like that gas block right up against the forearm HAS to be causing small amounts of damage if I continue to use it.

That spring noise does still baffle me, I never guessed...

Thanks for the help so far.  I will try the picture deal tomorrow.

Gundraw

P.S. Where is a good place to host pictures for free??
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 1:19:54 PM EDT
GunDraw you have amazing restraint - I would snap !  
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 4:38:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2003 4:39:08 PM EDT by Mike7111]
Gundraw,

I also am a new BM owner, that has had a few small problems, sorry about your problems.  I also would have "snapped".  Call Jim at BM, # is 1 800 883-6229, He's a good dude, and understands how much us newbies like our long awaited toy.

Mike
Nashville
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 5:13:13 PM EDT
It's like a big joke..

All my friends know all about how long it took, days to weeks to months.

The WORST part, is I called bushmaster, I actually talked to the same guy I "ordered" the gun from, explained the deal and he gave me instructions to send it back.  Guess who has to cover the shipping to Bushmaster (they cover the rest).  I couldn't believe they would have the gall to have me pay to ship that back.

Just the wait to finally get the rifle caused a few "angry" times.  I'm really amazed I'm taking it so well. hehehe.  It's like I'm waiting for the joke to be over, I think that will wear off when I get the upper in the mail.  

So it's official, I'm going to be an AR-less AR.15 member for another couple weeks.  (and I was planning on taking christmas pictures with it, hehehe) Boy, that thing really is a working piece of art though.

Actually, I just hope I get it back before I have to go back to school, college really cuts into range time.

Thanks for your help everyone.  I tried to get my pictures to load on the computer with no success, sorry.  I'll be sure to let everyone know how it turns out though.

Gundraw
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 5:27:14 PM EDT
Shoot, while I'm at it, I might as well hit you guys with all my questions.  I found something kinda strange when I shot my AR the few times I did the other day.

I've shot a small amount of .223, mostly out of my dad's old mini-14.  And I shoot tons of high power like .270, but this sounded different.

After I shot, (I was using Lake City XM 193) it's like I could HEAR the bullet traveling, all the way up to over 200 yds.  I was at my farm and just plinking around (of course before realizing the problems) at a target easily 230yds away.  But with each shot followed a loud FFFFFFFFFFFFFFffffffff.  as it traveled.  I could hear this whooshing noise clear up until it hit the target.  Is this a rifling issue...something that the initial break in will fix.  This was of course in the first 30 rounds through the tube.  I guess I just don't remember being able to hear a bullet travel like that.  It was a colder day with a pretty rough wind.  But I could still pick out the VERY distinct noise and the bullet travelled away.  Anybody know about this?  I hate being such a worrier, but I'm a little cautious about everything now.  Please don't tell me there is something wrong with my barrel too.  It was just the wierdest thing.  It was so wierd, like you could follow the bullet sound right to it's impact.  

Thanks,

Gundraw
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 5:31:08 PM EDT
Congrats on your first AR !  Many more to come I am sure.

First, if the gas block is in contact with the FF tube, it is not free floated.  Bushmaster will fix this for you quickly, I am sure.

Second, from your discription, the upper cracked when the roll pin was installed.  I looked very closely at uppers in that area and there is no hint of parting lines at that location.  Just have Bushmaster inspect and  replace the upper if the crack is confirmed.

It is possible there is a tool mark in the FA tube that caused a stress riser when the pin was driven in, result is a nice crack.  

Keep us posted, and good luck.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 5:38:11 PM EDT
With ear plugs in, all I hear is a loud pop/sproing.  No FFFFffffff.

You are wearing hearing protection, right?  If not you will be wearing a hearing aid by 40 if you do a lot of shooting.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 6:39:40 PM EDT
The more you shoot it, the less you hear the sproooing, and truth to tell if i stopped hearing it i'd be concerned :)

like what the guy said above: the sprooooing is the sound of a happy/healthy AR :)
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:19:37 PM EDT
It's my first AR, not my first gun.  Of course i'm using ear protection, nothing puts of a crack like a .223.  I have to admit though, I actually wasn't using my usual muffs.  I left them at home when I was doing some loud machining at home.  So I had to use the classic paper towel plug.  

Hmm, that FFFfff noise really has me baffled.  It sounds just like that though.  Louder and then gets softer as you hear the bullet move further away until it hits the target.  Very persistant.  I don't know how to describe the sound, but it does closely mimic how FFFfff sounds.  I"m not liking the, "never heard the FFFFffff", responce.  Please not something else!!

Come to think of it, given that .223 XM 193 is moving around 3200 fps.  It seemed like it was taking a long time getting there.  Dang, now I'm actually worried about this, I wanna go shoot it again.

Thanks,
Gundraw
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:15:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
... I looked very closely at uppers in that area and there is no hint of parting lines at that location.  ...
View Quote

Ditto! (at least on an Armalite)

Really does sound like a crack.

Originally Posted By GunDraw:
... But with each shot followed a loud FFFFFFFFFFFFFFffffffff.  as it traveled.  I could hear this whooshing noise clear up until it hit the target.  ...
View Quote

If you ever have a .223 go over (hopefully [:D]) your head, you may hear a sort of sizzling sound as the bullet passes.  

My guess is that you heard this sound from some sort of echo caused by maybe trees or even the wind.

A deformed bullet can cause the same sound to an even larger degree, but since this happened to you repeatedly, that doesn’t seem to be a likely explanation.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:25:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GunDraw:
... given that .223 XM 193 is moving around 3200 fps.  It seemed like it was taking a long time getting there.  ...
View Quote

That’s fast, but it’s not instantaneous!!

I remember shooting 300 meter knock down targets in the service where the delay was very noticeable.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:50:17 PM EDT
You made me run out and check my Rockriver:Heres a pic.....No crack or forging mark....
[img]HTTP://users.adelphia.net/~masine/fa.JPG[/img]
After 10000 rounds or so of 5.56 you wont even notice the sproonnng sound...And ive never heard the sound your talking about with the bullets...Maybe if the gasblock is touching your hearing some barrel harmonics.....UNDERDOG
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 9:43:08 PM EDT
You weren't shooting steel plates at 20yrds, were you? : )   teeanananana wananangoggg zipppppp


The pin you were looking at was a standard roll pin. Look about two inches above that pin. There is another roll pin holding the rear sight together. There is another roll pin three inches below, holding the trigger guard together.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 9:27:21 PM EDT
Finally, I got the upper all packaged up.  The first hint of anger came out after it was all packed up and my reciever had to sit all by it's lonesome self.  [:(]


Yep Underdog, that's the spot, only the mark is on the top side.

I wrote them a letter along with it having them check all this stuff out.  I told them specifically if they find that forging mark "acceptable" that I want documentation of that, just in case it does give me trouble after their 1-year warranty gives out.  Looking at it, I really think they are going to opt to give me a new reciever.  

I do think that is one thing bushmaster should consider, a lifetime warranty.  It says a lot when a manufacture stands next to their products like that.  (are you listening bushmaster?)

Anyway, the FFFFfff sound will have to wait, hehe.  Now I'm just trying to find the earliest time I can get this upper shipped out of here.  

Thanks for the help guys.  Hopefully this will be the end of the problems.  

As for me, I'll be alright ... really....[>(]

Happy shooting and Merry Christmas
Gundraw
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 10:37:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2003 10:47:26 PM EDT by Fly-Fly]
Originally Posted By GunDraw:
Hmmm.

I was like, Hey, it's that gas block.  Personally, I'm a little scared to shoot it now. The LAST thing I want to do is mess up or bend that gas block, forend, or barrel.  (okay, maybe that's a little excessive) but at any rate, as it seems everyone agrees, that gas block is not right.
View Quote


[b]If the gas block is hitting the handguard it should leave a witness mark.[/b]

You know, you'd think for a $130 part on a $1200 rifle, they would take enough pride to put things together right.  I mean, damn, this is my first AR and [b]I[/b] even noticed this in the first 60 seconds I handled the gun.
View Quote


[b] I bought a new Bushmaster Varminter a few months back. Before I fired it I mounted a scope on it I could visually detect that the barrel was canted to the left, as viewed from the top. I >CALLED< Bushmaster and they emailed me a prepaid shipping label and I shipped the complete upper assembly back to them. I fully expected to wait eight weeks but to my surprise I had a new upper in 10 days and it was perfect.[/b]
 
I already wrote bushmaster to see what they have to say.  I guess we'll see.  Put 'er on the shelf till I can figure out what needs to be done.

A little disappointed I won't be able to plink with my new toy.  I definitely didn't expect these kinds of thing to come up...

Thanks for the responces and info.

Gundraw
View Quote


Hmm, that FFFfff noise really has me baffled. It sounds just like that though. Louder and then gets softer as you hear the bullet move further away until it hits the target. Very persistant. I don't know how to describe the sound, but it does closely mimic how FFFfff sounds. I"m not liking the, "never heard the FFFFffff", responce. Please not something else!!

Come to think of it, given that .223 XM 193 is moving around 3200 fps. It seemed like it was taking a long time getting there. Dang, now I'm actually worried about this, I wanna go shoot it again.
View Quote


[b]I'm just guessing but, it could be the bullet breaking the sound barrier, just a guess.[/b]
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 10:52:24 PM EDT
Well that is strange.  I e-mailed first, then I called customer service and then I actually talked to the lady in returns.  I even specifically asked if I had to pay shipping even though this was a flaw from the factory.  He said yes over the phone.  

It's definitely too close, I can't even fit a piece of paper between the gas block and the forearm, even a rifle barrel moves more then that.  I'm sure there is a witness mark, but the way the gas block is slanted (and the how tight it is against the forearms) it's impossible to see the front where it would be contacting.  At any rate, I REALLY want to get that crack in the reciever checked out too.  That has problems written all over it.  Firearms and cracks DON'T mix.  

I have to say, that does anger me a bit that the guy at customer service would not even contemplate paying for shipping, like it was something I had messed up and needed to turn in on warranty.  He acted like they NEVER did that.  Oh well, I'm not going to make a big deal, I just want it fixed and done with.

Thank you much for the info,

Gundraw
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 5:07:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2003 5:10:55 AM EDT by gregw45]
Originally Posted By GunDraw:
Yep Underdog, that's the spot, only the mark is on the top side.
View Quote


Shit. I just received a Bushy A2 upper with a mark like you described. Didn't look like a crack (agree it has a "manufacturing line" look), but will have to give it a once-over tonight & post pics.
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 8:54:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gregw45:
Originally Posted By GunDraw:
Yep Underdog, that's the spot, only the mark is on the top side.
View Quote


Shit. I just received a Bushy A2 upper with a mark like you described. Didn't look like a crack (agree it has a "manufacturing line" look), but will have to give it a once-over tonight & post pics.
View Quote

Heres a pic of my top side
[img]HTTP://users.adelphia.net/~masine/3.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 12:42:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2003 2:05:23 PM EDT by gregw45]
Well, these are the best pics I could take. Turns out the the mark was on a flat top not an A2.

[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid94/p737ecbe41b5718ec09f0be84be783167/fa359e5e.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid94/pd9e6b3294c9fab89fa3d601e91231412/fa359e5c.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid94/p522ec2afc9b58e345ff3072e54ebd0a0/fa359e53.jpg[/img]

Here's what I can report: Section "A" of the mark is raised just enough to be felt with the finger tip.

Section "B" lacks raised edges or depth, and can't be felt with the finger tip.

Neither ends of the mark extend into the chamfered roll pin hole. No bare aluminum is visible anywhere.

Weird, but I'm not going to worry about it. Comments? Others?
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 12:53:13 PM EDT
Looks to me like its just molding marks and nothing to worry about.

It could have been an upper made in a new mold or the person buffing it didn't remember to go there with the wheel.

I wouldn't worry about it.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 2:32:09 PM EDT
gregw45- Mine is a flattop as well and that mark is EXACTLY like mine.  I'll be sure to let you know what they tell me from bushmaster, I made sure to add that I wanted them to address that.  If this post is still around when I get it back (early jan.) I'll post it there.  But I have a feeling if all of ours are like that, M4_AIMING is right.  It is probably just a molding mark.

Dang, I get another knife in the back every time I turn around.  My 1-piece armalite mount came today and my Bushnell 6-24 should be in later this week as well as my bipod.  Errrrr.  I started buying ammo, mags and accessories when I originally ordered the puppy, so I have all this stuff FOR my AR, but no AR. [furious]   Let's just say, I caught the disease before I even got it, I don't know what to expect when I actually get to shoot it.  [sniper]  (Where's the AR Anonymous forum??)

Hey, Everyone have a Merry Christmas, and thanks for all the input and help.  

Gundraw



Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:55:50 PM EDT
If your "crack" looks like that in the picture posted, I'd bet there is no problem at all.  And yes, the "SPROINNNGG!" is well known to anybody who has shot an AR15.  I put a small coating of grease on the spring just the last time I went shooting, and the sound was completely gone.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:36:38 PM EDT

In 8 years in the Infantry, every M16A1 and A2 I had issued made the sproing noise. Quite the norm for an AR/M16, althugh not all will make the noise. Both my current ARs make the noise, but I have had one in the past that didn't. I suspect plastic parts in the buffer tube/spacer donut were the culprits for the qietness; I prefer all metal parts since this is milspec. Trust me you will get to where you don't even notice the noise; it is quite normal.
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