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Posted: 4/28/2011 4:22:39 PM EDT
Ok so I have been reading, researching, lurking...you name it!. I have learned a lot and I am faced with a tough decision. I have would like to do one of two things...possible three. I am heavily weighing a PWS MK114 and add a SSA Trigger, SOPMOD stock, and some Troy Flip Battlesights. Seems like a nice setup and would come in around 2K. Or a BCM build out, battlecomp 1.5, Sopmod (LMT Lower or like), Troy Flips, DD quad, and finally just get a KAC SR15 and be done with it. All these rifles will be around the same dollar amount when I am done. So it is the 2K challenge. The Piston throws this into a difficult area but I believe it should not be ruled out. One rifle is a piston the others are DIs. All very good. I dont know which one is most accurate, lightest, best muzzle control or lightest recoil. I will be using a QD sling in a 2 point. So that is another consideration. Weight in and let me know what you guys are thinking. I ruled out the SCAR and I am selling my ACR and SR556C. So this will be my one and only AR then I move on to an AK. Wife is cracking down and will only allow one in the AR category. Once again your assistance is welcome...Thanks!
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 4:32:29 PM EDT
What does the PWS offer that you're not getting from your SR556C or your ACR?
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 5:33:39 PM EDT
Alright, I'm going to offer my 2 cents, now keep in mind it's worth what you paid for it

In the shoes of your lady here? You bought an ACR and* a ruger piston gun. Neither of those are particularly cheap. Now you're talking about getting a high end AR, and then* another AK. Now obviously not all women are the same, and I'm taking a total guess in the dark here- but from her point of view? She's probably picturing you owning 4 expensive guns, and continuously changing them out when you shoot them a bit and suddenly decide you don't like them, possibly deciding you need a newer and more expensive gun. While obviously the approval of an internet stranger like me doesn't matter at all really - and I can only speculate that the above is what your lady is thinking.... but man? Make up your mind. I think your girl really is envisioning a large collection and revolving door of expensive guns, this is probably why she's put the foot down.

Taking off the psuedo-freud hat now (sorry man), I agree with the poster above me... What* is it that you don't like about your current ACR and ruger? What aren't they doing for you? What will these other guns do that the above won't? Do you simply not like them? Stabs in the dark here: The ruger is a bit front heavy and has a strange recoil pulse, and the ACR isn't that accurate and feels like plastic? or something like that? Or: "this is America, and freedom=/= need, and I want* a new gun, and last time I checked that was still legal." - all are valid answers

My opinion? Look at what your uses for these guns are! If you're like many shooters (again forgive me I'm speculating here), your uses are:
1) Home defense
2) range use
3) possible carbine courses
4) "SHTF"/zombies/redcoats

My opinion* again? I'd say get 2 guns, *Total*.
The design ethos for each gun?
1) A home defense/lightweight HD/Carbine course/SHTF use gun, for short range use
2) A medium to long range gun for range/SHTF/zombie use, in case longer ranges suddenly become of interest to you

For the light gun? The SR-15 is good platform. People speak of them in glowing terms for good reason. They're light, balance well, have a pleasant recoil impulse, are quite accurate, etc. If the words of those who have them are to be believed, it really is a dialed in gun, greater than the sum of its parts. I'd say get one of these and put on an optic you like. the BCM build route is also a good one, the geissele trigger is good- you really can't go wrong there.

For the second gun? My opinion, ditch the AK. consider a longer range platform, (perhaps in 6.5/6.8 etc, so you do* get that harder hitting caliber feel you would have gotten with the AK - but with longer range accuracy to boot), and get a good optic for it.

My opinion? Look at something like this, or: SR-15 (or the other 2 guns you named, they are* quality guns, I don't think you'll find a bad one between those 3, I just think the SR-15 is sweet), AK, call it a day. Make it clear to your girl that these 2 guns are going to be it, and the project is a done deal after that.



Just my opinion, I apologize if I stepped on toes or read too hard into the lady's mandate etc etc
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 6:46:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:
What does the PWS offer that you're not getting from your SR556C or your ACR?


Weight and Balance of both, both are also noise heavy as well. The muzzle rise of the SR-556C (Its no terrible but I want none) and since the flash hider is pinned I cant swap it out without sinking in a ton of cash. Triggers on both are average at best...I know I can swap it out on the Ruger. The ruger I actual prefer to the ACR. The sights on the ACR suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know I can change them as well. Grip on the ACR...cant change it. No carrier tilt on the PWS...ruger has its issues with it. Aside from LWRC and PWS, I dont thing there are very other pistons that are of this level of reliability and quality...ok the HK416 but...WEIGHT!!! If the ACR went on a weight loss program I wouldnt consider anything else...aka the remington version....put it in at 7.4lbs and move some mass back you have an excellent rifle that has endless configs (well at some point).



Link Posted: 4/28/2011 6:56:11 PM EDT
Put Troy Micros on your ACR and call us in the morning.
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 7:06:45 PM EDT
Fox, I bought the ACR after I had the SR-556C and was planning on dumping it only to realize I like the Ruger far better then the ACR. I havent gotten around to post either on GB...lazy. A little behind. The lady is a little bent. I admit I am a little indecisive but the hardest think about ARs is you just cant go to the range and rent one to try. So this was my pickle. Next time around (this one) I am doing my research and taking my time. Oh and accuracy is very good on the acr....just dont remove the barrel from the trunion they are very close accuracy wise but I might have to say the ACR is more accurate to the ruger...but it is so close. As for AK, 5.45 is cheap to shoot and fun!!! AKs are just plain fun to shoot! 1000 rounds of 5.45 is 120!!! Even 7.62x39 aks are fun. Our last outting was ARs and AKs, the AKs destroyed what they hit! Under 100 yards. Watching and AK his a 4x4 would just plain destroy it! AR...5.56 rip thru. Melons...pumpkin...AK...wow! Not to mention an AK not only is cheaper to shoot but cheaper to own! Dont really need to deck out an AK! Too be honest the AK was more fun to shoot then the ARs. But an AK past 200 yards is really pretty terrible! Just my 2 cents. But one question for you...if you can answer this...how is the muzzle rise on the SR15??
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 7:11:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By soapboxpreacher:
Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:
What does the PWS offer that you're not getting from your SR556C or your ACR?


Weight and Balance of both, both are also noise heavy as well.
Wait, do you mean *nose* heavy? Or noise heavy? If you feel the gun is noisy, most brakes tend to make the gun seem louder (depending on the brake/where you're standing )

The muzzle rise of the SR-556C (Its no terrible but I want none) and since the flash hider is pinned I cant swap it out without sinking in a ton of cash. Triggers on both are average at best...I know I can swap it out on the Ruger.
Imho the new geissele SD3gun trigger, or an SSA, or a spikes tactical battle trigger (Coated in nickel boron) are all improvements over the stock trigger- and reliable setups. If you go with the spikes, take a look at yours and make sure it's not one of the scruffy looking ones some people got

The ruger I actual prefer to the ACR. The sights on the ACR suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know I can change them as well. Grip on the ACR...cant change it. No carrier tilt on the PWS...ruger has its issues with it.
There are ways around this. One is this:

IIRC, supposedly a Tubb flatwire spring and H3 buffer can help.

On the topic of buffers: I believe it was 87GN who tried the new Vltor A5 on piston guns, and found that with the heaviest buffer, it "Tamed" the piston system, bringing the carrier velocity down. http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/09/24/vltor-a5hk416-test-data/

Other thing to note: by going with a more substantial stock, like a Sopmod, or say, vltor Emod, you'd be helping change the balance of that front heavy ruger piston gun . With a heavier stock, while the overall gun will be heavier, it will balance better. Another thing to consider there.


Aside from LWRC and PWS, I dont thing there are very other pistons that are of this level of reliability On reliability: Pat Rogers and "Filthy 14" really are a good showcase of what a properly lubed quality AR is capable of doing. The guns are plenty reliable. Use good ammo, good mags, keep the gun lubed, buy a quality platform, and your gun - whether it be piston or DI, will run just fine.
and quality...ok the HK416 but...WEIGHT!!! If the ACR went on a weight loss program I wouldnt consider anything else...aka the remington version....put it in at 7.4lbs and move some mass back you have an excellent rifle that has endless configs (well at some point).





My vote?
-Sell the ACR.
-Consider keeping the ruger, but getting an upgraded trigger, changing the buffer (and possibly spring), and getting a heavier stock that's to your liking to help the balance.
-Shoot the changed up Ruger, and if you don't like it, you don't like it
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 3:28:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2011 5:49:37 AM EDT by Melvin_Johnson]
Send the Ruger to Adco and have them pin a PWS brake or Battle Comp 1.5 to the barrel in place of the factory flash hider.

Sell the ACR and use that money to buy a quality red dot and some practice ammo.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 1:19:27 PM EDT
Already looked into the adco. The want $225 that includes the BC 1.5....not too bad, then I need to add the SOPMOD...$199. SSA trigger $170. At the end of the day it is still a ruger. Not that there is anything wrong with ruger but I have my reservations. It has carrier tilt issues that I know can be resolved but it also has a goofy impulse recoil...not to mention it is not very well balanced. It isnt horrible but certainly no SR15, MK114, LWRC or BCM. When I factor in all the addition money it is once again it is still a ruger. The rails are permanently mounted and I believe cannot be changed to a lighter kind. I thinking dumping both and getting just one very nice one is the ticket. My crossroads is which direction/platform do I go to?)...SR15, PWS MK114, LWRC or BCM build. Piston (MK114 is done right for a piston) or DI? My requirements are which ever one I go with it will have a SOPMOD, 2-Stage Trigger, 9-12" light Quad rail, Troy Flips HK Style front and rear or like sights (I am not an A2 front sight fan). Now I already have a gripod, Eotech 512, and a magpul AFG, Blue Force 2 point sling, and some other goodies. So a quad rail is a must for me for mounting. My goal is a rifle that is accurate, low recoil, zero muzzle climb (for 3-gun matches), light, balanced, and reliable!!! I would love to have it double as my SHTF rifle to so that is why I am also considering the MK114. I like the buffer tube, QD castle nut replacement and the other added features not to mention a long stroke piston design that has no carrier tilt and the center mass is far more balanced. The twist at 1:8 or 1:7 are fine. Most of my shooting is in 55g. But I would like to shoot some cheap ammo when playing so I am not always breaking the bank...wolf and what not from time to time.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 1:27:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By soapboxpreacher:
Already looked into the adco. The want $225 that includes the BC 1.5....not too bad, then I need to add the SOPMOD...$199. SSA trigger $170. At the end of the day it is still a ruger. Not that there is anything wrong with ruger but I have my reservations. It has carrier tilt issues that I know can be resolved but it also has a goofy impulse recoil...not to mention it is not very well balanced. It isnt horrible but certainly no SR15, MK114, LWRC or BCM. When I factor in all the addition money it is once again it is still a ruger. The rails are permanently mounted and I believe cannot be changed to a lighter kind. I thinking dumping both and getting just one very nice one is the ticket. My crossroads is which direction/platform do I go to?)...SR15, PWS MK114, LWRC or BCM build. Piston (MK114 is done right for a piston) or DI? My requirements are which ever one I go with it will have a SOPMOD, 2-Stage Trigger, 9-12" light Quad rail, Troy Flips HK Style front and rear or like sights (I am not an A2 front sight fan). Now I already have a gripod, Eotech 512, and a magpul AFG, Blue Force 2 point sling, and some other goodies. So a quad rail is a must for me for mounting. My goal is a rifle that is accurate, low recoil, zero muzzle climb (for 3-gun matches), light, balanced, and reliable!!! I would love to have it double as my SHTF rifle to so that is why I am also considering the MK114. I like the buffer tube, QD castle nut replacement and the other added features not to mention a long stroke piston design that has no carrier tilt and the center mass is far more balanced. The twist at 1:8 or 1:7 are fine. Most of my shooting is in 55g. But I would like to shoot some cheap ammo when playing so I am not always breaking the bank...wolf and what not from time to time.


What has you sold on the PWS? I've got a good amount of time on their system and it has peculiarities just like they all do.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 2:31:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:
Originally Posted By soapboxpreacher:
Already looked into the adco. The want $225 that includes the BC 1.5....not too bad, then I need to add the SOPMOD...$199. SSA trigger $170. At the end of the day it is still a ruger. Not that there is anything wrong with ruger but I have my reservations. It has carrier tilt issues that I know can be resolved but it also has a goofy impulse recoil...not to mention it is not very well balanced. It isnt horrible but certainly no SR15, MK114, LWRC or BCM. When I factor in all the addition money it is once again it is still a ruger. The rails are permanently mounted and I believe cannot be changed to a lighter kind. I thinking dumping both and getting just one very nice one is the ticket. My crossroads is which direction/platform do I go to?)...SR15, PWS MK114, LWRC or BCM build. Piston (MK114 is done right for a piston) or DI? My requirements are which ever one I go with it will have a SOPMOD, 2-Stage Trigger, 9-12" light Quad rail, Troy Flips HK Style front and rear or like sights (I am not an A2 front sight fan). Now I already have a gripod, Eotech 512, and a magpul AFG, Blue Force 2 point sling, and some other goodies. So a quad rail is a must for me for mounting. My goal is a rifle that is accurate, low recoil, zero muzzle climb (for 3-gun matches), light, balanced, and reliable!!! I would love to have it double as my SHTF rifle to so that is why I am also considering the MK114. I like the buffer tube, QD castle nut replacement and the other added features not to mention a long stroke piston design that has no carrier tilt and the center mass is far more balanced. The twist at 1:8 or 1:7 are fine. Most of my shooting is in 55g. But I would like to shoot some cheap ammo when playing so I am not always breaking the bank...wolf and what not from time to time.


What has you sold on the PWS? I've got a good amount of time on their system and it has peculiarities just like they all do.


No carrier tilt, better center mass from the long stroke piston system, better balance (not so nose heavy), isnt as heavy as other piston platforms in fact similar in weight and feel to a DI...although I cannot attest to this for I cant seem to get my hands on one. And reliability...runs cleaner...I am lazy from time to time.

Link Posted: 4/29/2011 2:41:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By soapboxpreacher:
Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:
Originally Posted By soapboxpreacher:
Already looked into the adco. The want $225 that includes the BC 1.5....not too bad, then I need to add the SOPMOD...$199. SSA trigger $170. At the end of the day it is still a ruger. Not that there is anything wrong with ruger but I have my reservations. It has carrier tilt issues that I know can be resolved but it also has a goofy impulse recoil...not to mention it is not very well balanced. It isnt horrible but certainly no SR15, MK114, LWRC or BCM. When I factor in all the addition money it is once again it is still a ruger. The rails are permanently mounted and I believe cannot be changed to a lighter kind. I thinking dumping both and getting just one very nice one is the ticket. My crossroads is which direction/platform do I go to?)...SR15, PWS MK114, LWRC or BCM build. Piston (MK114 is done right for a piston) or DI? My requirements are which ever one I go with it will have a SOPMOD, 2-Stage Trigger, 9-12" light Quad rail, Troy Flips HK Style front and rear or like sights (I am not an A2 front sight fan). Now I already have a gripod, Eotech 512, and a magpul AFG, Blue Force 2 point sling, and some other goodies. So a quad rail is a must for me for mounting. My goal is a rifle that is accurate, low recoil, zero muzzle climb (for 3-gun matches), light, balanced, and reliable!!! I would love to have it double as my SHTF rifle to so that is why I am also considering the MK114. I like the buffer tube, QD castle nut replacement and the other added features not to mention a long stroke piston design that has no carrier tilt and the center mass is far more balanced. The twist at 1:8 or 1:7 are fine. Most of my shooting is in 55g. But I would like to shoot some cheap ammo when playing so I am not always breaking the bank...wolf and what not from time to time.


What has you sold on the PWS? I've got a good amount of time on their system and it has peculiarities just like they all do.


No carrier tilt, better center mass from the long stroke piston system, better balance (not so nose heavy), isnt as heavy as other piston platforms in fact similar in weight and feel to a DI...although I cannot attest to this for I cant seem to get my hands on one. And reliability...runs cleaner...I am lazy from time to time.



PWS system still shows carrier tilt. As me how I know...

Also, the system doesn't run as clean as other pistons since there's some gas that gets around the piston and makes its way into the upper.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 2:45:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By soapboxpreacher:
It has carrier tilt issues that I know can be resolved



How bad's the carrier tilt? Is it just some superficial scuffing near the buffer detent?

Link Posted: 4/29/2011 3:10:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:
Originally Posted By soapboxpreacher:
Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:
Originally Posted By soapboxpreacher:
Already looked into the adco. The want $225 that includes the BC 1.5....not too bad, then I need to add the SOPMOD...$199. SSA trigger $170. At the end of the day it is still a ruger. Not that there is anything wrong with ruger but I have my reservations. It has carrier tilt issues that I know can be resolved but it also has a goofy impulse recoil...not to mention it is not very well balanced. It isnt horrible but certainly no SR15, MK114, LWRC or BCM. When I factor in all the addition money it is once again it is still a ruger. The rails are permanently mounted and I believe cannot be changed to a lighter kind. I thinking dumping both and getting just one very nice one is the ticket. My crossroads is which direction/platform do I go to?)...SR15, PWS MK114, LWRC or BCM build. Piston (MK114 is done right for a piston) or DI? My requirements are which ever one I go with it will have a SOPMOD, 2-Stage Trigger, 9-12" light Quad rail, Troy Flips HK Style front and rear or like sights (I am not an A2 front sight fan). Now I already have a gripod, Eotech 512, and a magpul AFG, Blue Force 2 point sling, and some other goodies. So a quad rail is a must for me for mounting. My goal is a rifle that is accurate, low recoil, zero muzzle climb (for 3-gun matches), light, balanced, and reliable!!! I would love to have it double as my SHTF rifle to so that is why I am also considering the MK114. I like the buffer tube, QD castle nut replacement and the other added features not to mention a long stroke piston design that has no carrier tilt and the center mass is far more balanced. The twist at 1:8 or 1:7 are fine. Most of my shooting is in 55g. But I would like to shoot some cheap ammo when playing so I am not always breaking the bank...wolf and what not from time to time.


What has you sold on the PWS? I've got a good amount of time on their system and it has peculiarities just like they all do.


No carrier tilt, better center mass from the long stroke piston system, better balance (not so nose heavy), isnt as heavy as other piston platforms in fact similar in weight and feel to a DI...although I cannot attest to this for I cant seem to get my hands on one. And reliability...runs cleaner...I am lazy from time to time.



PWS system still shows carrier tilt. As me how I know...

Also, the system doesn't run as clean as other pistons since there's some gas that gets around the piston and makes its way into the upper.



What...never heard of this yet...how do you know this and do you have pics to back it up. I have seen a handful of reviews and no one has said they have tllt issues...as for gas getting around...ummm what...another new one. Gotta ask for the proof on this. Not that I am doubting you but this is the first time I have heard anyone or anything about this.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 3:19:22 PM EDT
Believe what you want.

Here's a picture of the buffer tube I used with a DC-12 upper and a select fire Colt lower. Note the scuffing behind the detent hole/slot. As for carbon fouling, the PWS still runs clean but not as clean as the Ruger.

Link Posted: 4/29/2011 6:42:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:
Believe what you want.

Here's a picture of the buffer tube I used with a DC-12 upper and a select fire Colt lower. Note the scuffing behind the detent hole/slot. As for carbon fouling, the PWS still runs clean but not as clean as the Ruger.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/PWS%20DC-12/DSCN1159.jpg


Thanks Melvin...so you have a ruger also? Is that the PWS buffer tube as well and is the MK114 gonna run different then you DC-12 upper because it contents the PWS buffer tube and other components optimized for the long stroke? Oh and side by side (if you own the ruger) what is your take between the ruger and the pws?? I certainly dont hate the ruger but it isnt as balanced and lacks a few key components but it is certainly nice. My issues of clean with the ruger stops at the piston...it is a mess to clean and mine has gotten stuck more then once to get out! It gets so dirty it get stuck. Is there a good way to clean the piston.

Link Posted: 4/29/2011 6:43:57 PM EDT
Melvin I do want to thank you for the help on this as well as the first hand proof. You hear alot and usually dont see that much to back it up so thanks for keeping this rifle honest.
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