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Posted: 5/20/2013 4:48:32 AM EDT
Good Morning / Afternoon everyone!
I've been reading the forum's for awhile now, and it seems everyone is giving some good advice to folks, I am hoping some of the AR Guru's can help with the problem I am having with my new AR-15 300 Blkout build. I started with a brand new Upper stripped receiver, and built up a decent 300 blkout assembly. I purchased a custom barrel that is a 1:8 twist, stainless steel 16" barrel, with the gasport drilled Pistol length. I used an adjustable gas block, and a heavy duty M16 style bolt carrier group. Everything is lubed up really well with Gun Butter and slides smooth and crisp. The problem is, I load up 5 rounds of custom loaded 300 blackout ammo. It's cut down 223 cases, using 11.7 to 12gr of H110 powder, and topped with a 200 grain Nosler poly tip bullet. I can fire the first round just fine, but when the gun tries to load the next round the bolt looks like it's closed all the way, I push the forward assist to make sure the bolt is full 'home' but all get is the firing pin "click" when I pull the trigger. At that stage my tigger is locked up, and it's a hard pull on the charging handle to get the bolt to release my round. I can let go of the charging handle, feeding another round into the chamber, but all I still get is a CLICK. I thought it was bolt at first, so I purchased a second bolt from Midway (AR Stoner Heavy Duty), however that bolt does the same thing as the first? I am narrowing it down to the reloaded ammo might not have been trimmed correctly, but I did measure the OAL and they are all under the 2.26" Max. (Measuring 2.20" on calipers) I was just wondering if anyone has had this problem, or have some suggestions as to what might be the problem? I would try to use some PURCHASED (factory loaded ammo) but everything is sold out locally for the stores that carry it. I wanted to shoot subsonic as I do have a CAN for the rifle, but it would be nice to get the thing to shoot more than 1 round at a time first. I did try adjusting my gas block to barely open, and all the way open. It didn't seem to make a difference either way. Thanks for your help and hopefully someone has the fix 
Gus |
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Posted: 5/20/2013 5:14:56 AM EDT
[#1]
there are several things that could be happening, pics would help. First off, did you clean the barrel really good before you shot? Also, it will be hard to tell (for me anyway) what is going on with you shooting hand loads. I don't reload and am not an expert, but I might would look at the gas system first with just regular ammo. I know it is hard to find, but that is the first thing I would do.
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Posted: 5/20/2013 5:34:43 AM EDT
[#2]
did you build the lower ? if you did I would check the hammer spring you may have it in backwards and are getting light primer strikes .
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Posted: 5/20/2013 5:38:29 AM EDT
[#3]
Make sure the hammer springs are in correctly, but it could also be that your ammo is out of spec and the cases were not sized/trimmer correctly.
Just to be clear, is the bolt cycling and picking up another round? Or is it going "click" because the chamber is empty? |
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Posted: 5/20/2013 5:40:44 AM EDT
[#4]
Sounds like a sizing issue in the cases. If they are not sized properly that could cause what you have described. Are you reloading them or are you getting them from someone else?
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Posted: 5/20/2013 8:31:21 AM EDT
[#5]
I was thinking it was the cases myself, I purchased them online from ARMSLIST, a guy in detroit was picking up range brass (223) and converting them to 300 blk. Then he said he tumbled (they are bright and pretty), deprimed (no primers were installed), and he said they were resized to fit. I ran about 30 of them in my resizing die until one of them didn't get lubed and seized my die, which halted my progress instantly. That's why I ran an OAL check on them from length, but I think I will check the cases tonight and compare to the SAMI standard.
Paxton: I did build the lower myself (Detroit Gun Works Lower, with DPMS LPK, all Magpul grips and stock), and I will double check my hammer springs to make sure and maybe post some photos when I get the gun back in my hands (It's up north at the cottage right now, which is where I can shoot it). D16man, I have some regular 300 BLK on order from a company online, ordered 6 boxes of the standard PMC ammo, but it's on backorder until who knows. Just like a kid with a new toy, I wanted to get this thing tuned in without waiting on the ammo. *Shrugs* might still be waiting on ammo. Grim: yes, the bolt is picking up another round, it's just really seating HARD in the chamber. When I pull that 2nd bullet out of the chamber (after I pull the gunfighter charging handle back) the bullet ejects and another one feeds in, (the new bullet that fed in, doesn't fire either, again it's just another click) I did notice some pretty deep rifling marks on the brass of the bullet. I also thought it had to do with a headspace or barrel extension problem. This barrel is a 1 piece barrel and extension all in one, so I didn't need a separate extension installed. The barrel came from SKI Rifles, here is the link to the actual auction: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=331874286 Thanks for all help and tips, it looks like a little more playing around to do and double checking before she fires like it should, Gus Quoted:
Sounds like a sizing issue in the cases. If they are not sized properly that could cause what you have described. Are you reloading them or are you getting them from someone else? |
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Posted: 5/20/2013 8:56:49 AM EDT
[#6]
I am assuming that you don't have a case gauge. I highly recommend getting one. That will tell you if there are issues with your reloads. At least with the external dimensions.
I don't know the bullet design you're using but maybe your oal is too long for your chamber. The ogive may be hitting the throat and needs that little bit more push to seat the bullet deeper into the case. Also I would find any factory ammo to check to see if it does the same. If factory ammo does the same then it is probably your chamber. |
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Posted: 5/20/2013 9:27:22 AM EDT
[#7]
Try factory ammo before you take it all apart. Was headspace checked?
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Posted: 5/20/2013 10:23:27 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
I was thinking it was the cases myself, I purchased them online from ARMSLIST, a guy in detroit was picking up range brass (223) and converting them to 300 blk. Then he said he tumbled (they are bright and pretty), deprimed (no primers were installed), and he said they were resized to fit. I ran about 30 of them in my resizing die until one of them didn't get lubed and seized my die, which halted my progress instantly. That's why I ran an OAL check on them from length, but I think I will check the cases tonight and compare to the SAMI standard. all but 20 rounds out of 400 rounds that i have are 223 converted to 300blk I have no issue with any of mine . I also cleaned and lube my dies before I started to resize and load Paxton: I did build the lower myself (Detroit Gun Works Lower, with DPMS LPK, all Magpul grips and stock), and I will double check my hammer springs to make sure and maybe post some photos when I get the gun back in my hands (It's up north at the cottage right now, which is where I can shoot it). http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/lower/ that will show you what it should look like this is a common issue D16man, I have some regular 300 BLK on order from a company online, ordered 6 boxes of the standard PMC ammo, but it's on backorder until who knows. Just like a kid with a new toy, I wanted to get this thing tuned in without waiting on the ammo. *Shrugs* might still be waiting on ammo. Grim: yes, the bolt is picking up another round, it's just really seating HARD in the chamber. When I pull that 2nd bullet out of the chamber (after I pull the gunfighter charging handle back) the bullet ejects and another one feeds in, (the new bullet that fed in, doesn't fire either, again it's just another click) I did notice some pretty deep rifling marks on the brass of the bullet. I also thought it had to do with a headspace or barrel extension problem. This barrel is a 1 piece barrel and extension all in one, never heard of this and don't think its possible . you just got a barrel that already had the extension already installed which is normal .so I didn't need a separate extension installed. The barrel came from SKI Rifles, here is the link to the actual auction: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=331874286 Thanks for all help and tips, it looks like a little more playing around to do and double checking before she fires like it should, Gus Quoted:
Sounds like a sizing issue in the cases. If they are not sized properly that could cause what you have described. Are you reloading them or are you getting them from someone else? another quick check is to separate the upper and lower and remove the bcg and charging handle and put in a round by hand it should just fall in and seat with no help then tip the barrel up and it should fall out |
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Posted: 5/20/2013 11:10:10 AM EDT
[#9]
I just purchased another 250 cases that were converted from 223 to 300 blk, and a Sheridan Engineering bullet check which I've heard rave reviews about. I can then check my reloaded ammo that the batch of cases I purchased from detroit.
Paxton: I tried a new method of lubing these cases, I purchases of that franklin arsenal spray lube, and I just spritz a bunch of it inside a ziplock baggie with the cases in it and shook the heck out of the bag. Apparently the stuff drys quickly, and drys really sticky as well. I'm going back to my imperial case lube, or the RCBS roller pad with RCBS lube. My trigger looks exactly like that, I don't think the hammer would work if I had it any other way, but I will check my other lowers just to make sure (I built up 4 lowers total in this batch, and I have built more than 30 lowers in my lifetime) this is just the first upper I've ever built. I will also try the trick with the bullet into the chamber and see happens. Thanks! Quoted:
I am assuming that you don't have a case gauge. I highly recommend getting one. That will tell you if there are issues with your reloads. At least with the external dimensions. I don't know the bullet design you're using but maybe your oal is too long for your chamber. The ogive may be hitting the throat and needs that little bit more push to seat the bullet deeper into the case. Also I would find any factory ammo to check to see if it does the same. If factory ammo does the same then it is probably your chamber. |
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Posted: 5/20/2013 12:32:44 PM EDT
[#10]
it happens all the time and it does and doesn't work you may get lucky and have 5 miss fires out of 30 or 1 fire in ten .
^^these are wrong 
^this is correct pics borrowed from one of the MANY OTHER threads in trouble shooting that all hear a click when there should be a boom and the bolt is in full battery I would bet on it |
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Posted: 5/20/2013 2:21:45 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
It's cut down 223 cases, using 11.7 to 12gr of H110 powder, and topped with a 200 grain Nosler poly tip bullet. [/img] Since there is not mention of a filler being used to get full case volume void fill, and H-110 is the same powder as 296, then don't worry about the rifle so much, since you will be building another one very shortly when the rifle KB's instead. The problem here is that 296/H110 needs to fill the case, or you run into nasty problems with the powder burning erratic, and at least tripping the working pressure of the round when this happens. As for when you do either introduced a filler to get the 296 class powder to a full cause volume level, or change over to another powder that give a full case volume without the need of a filler for your subsonic load, then get a loaded case gauge to check the ammo, and even remember to check the ammo for bullet engagement on loading. The reason here is you want to make sure that you are fully sizing the cases, have not buckled the brass shoulders by adding to much bullet crimp, and even have the cases trimmed to the correct over all lenght. Also, unless you bought the bolt with the custom barrel, then the two need to be checked for headspace. |
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Posted: 5/21/2013 6:07:39 AM EDT
[#12]
Dano:
The reloading manual suggested that powder and that grain amount without mention of a Filler. I did a quick search online for a filler, and noticed some people have used TP wads to keep the powder in contact with the primer. I purchased a Sheridan Engineering case gauge to check my reloaded ammo and will be here tomorrow. I'm also going to the gun store tomorrow and looking for some 300 blkout ammo (factory loaded) to see if those cycle correctly in the gun. The current bullets load have no crimp on them at all, as I originally purchased the Lyman brand of dies which didn't come with a factory crimp die. I did purchase and have in my hands a set of Lee die's with a factory crimp die. I will be using the Lee's (which is what I use to reload all my other calibers) and the crimp die. I've never heard of a filler being used, as I've always been under the impression that you don't want anything but bullet and powder inside a bullet casing. I guess I better start browsing the 300blk forums and reading up on the quirks of this case. Thanks for the help everyone who is taking the time to reply to my frustrating times with this first 300 blackout build. Gus Quoted:
Quoted:
It's cut down 223 cases, using 11.7 to 12gr of H110 powder, and topped with a 200 grain Nosler poly tip bullet. [/url] Since there is not mention of a filler being used to get full case volume void fill, and H-110 is the same powder as 296, then don't worry about the rifle so much, since you will be building another one very shortly when the rifle KB's instead. The problem here is that 296/H110 needs to fill the case, or you run into nasty problems with the powder burning erratic, and at least tripping the working pressure of the round when this happens. As for when you do either introduced a filler to get the 296 class powder to a full cause volume level, or change over to another powder that give a full case volume without the need of a filler for your subsonic load, then get a loaded case gauge to check the ammo, and even remember to check the ammo for bullet engagement on loading. The reason here is you want to make sure that you are fully sizing the cases, have not buckled the brass shoulders by adding to much bullet crimp, and even have the cases trimmed to the correct over all lenght. Also, unless you bought the bolt with the custom barrel, then the two need to be checked for headspace. |
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Posted: 5/21/2013 6:41:46 PM EDT
[#13]
When brass is full length sized for a semi-auto it's best to use small-base dies. If you don't you can run into chambering issues. If your brass wasn't sized with a small-base full length die it will still fit in a case gage but may not chamber correctly. FWIW...
Also sounds like your COAL may be a little on the long side. I don't use any filler in my subsonic rounds but I use 11gr. of A1680 and 220gr. SMK's which take up most of the case anyway. They work fine. My COAL is 2.090". |
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Posted: 5/21/2013 6:52:39 PM EDT
[#14]
Class 296 powder was first designed for 30 carbine loads, but since it was available as surplus as well, reloaders stated to use it to come up with loads decades ago. Pretty much at the same time, it was found that if the powder did not fill the case completely, it would have a strange burn (flash over and delayed ignition), which would cause what should have been a low working pressure to spike and in fact hit well into the 100K working pressure load instead (causing the guns to KB).
296 goes by two names in canister powder, being 296 by win, and H-1110 By Hodgdon, both are which are the same powder. Even more so, if you look through any reloading manual, it clearly states to never reduce the starting working point of the powder by more than 3% so you do not end up with a large air volume to the powder. Why in the Hodgdon manuals is does not state to use a filler, is beyond me, but with any subsonic load that does not fill the case volume, it's a give that a filler is required and not sure when such is not clearly stated within the loading data, instead of just implied. Note: 300-mp by Hodgdon is in fact, 297 powder and should be treated the same way as well.. Simply put, without a filler with 296 that is not filling the case fully, your playing with a disaster just waiting to happen. So either start using a filler, or better yet, just pick another powder for your subsonic loads that fills the case fully instead. Don't get me wrong, 296 is a great powder that I burn by the kegs in hand gun mag 44 and 357 and 410 loads, but in all cases here, the powder is used without any air voids in the case cavity. It when there is an larger air void in the volume of the load that all bets are off if the working pressure is going to be correct, or just get a over pressure burn instead with this powder (at triple or more over pressure that will cause the firearm to KB). As for the discussion of filler or not with this reduced volume loads with 296, best to just look at those not using a filler, as just those that have not had a problem yet. The rest of us that know the background of the powder, know better that to use it with a load that leaves a large air volume instead. |
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Posted: 5/22/2013 3:55:18 AM EDT
[#15]
Thank you both Dano and OneShot for the responses, both of which are good advice that I need to keep in mind. This is my first 300 BLK gun, and reloading is still fairly new to me (I've been reloading 308, 223, 30.06, 45, 9mm, and 40S&W for a few years) but this 300 blk seems to be a new beast entirely. I'm going to to avoid the H110 powder in my 300 blackout rounds and I'm thinking the same goes for it's counterpart "Lil Gun". I'll start searching around for some recipes that will fill the case, and until then it looks like factory loaded ammo only :) I really don't want the KB (which I take it stands for KaBoom) my new build.
Thanks again for all the help and history lesson on the Class 296 powder. -Gus Quoted:
Class 296 powder was first designed for 30 carbine loads, but since it was available as surplus as well, reloaders stated to use it to come up with loads decades ago. Pretty much at the same time, it was found that if the powder did not fill the case completely, it would have a strange burn (flash over and delayed ignition), which would cause what should have been a low working pressure to spike and in fact hit well into the 100K working pressure load instead (causing the guns to KB). 296 goes by two names in canister powder, being 296 by win, and H-1110 By Hodgdon, both are which are the same powder. Even more so, if you look through any reloading manual, it clearly states to never reduce the starting working point of the powder by more than 3% so you do not end up with a large air volume to the powder. Why in the Hodgdon manuals is does not state to use a filler, is beyond me, but with any subsonic load that does not fill the case volume, it's a give that a filler is required and not sure when such is not clearly stated within the loading data, instead of just implied. Note: 300-mp by Hodgdon is in fact, 297 powder and should be treated the same way as well.. Simply put, without a filler with 296 that is not filling the case fully, your playing with a disaster just waiting to happen. So either start using a filler, or better yet, just pick another powder for your subsonic loads that fills the case fully instead. Don't get me wrong, 296 is a great powder that I burn by the kegs in hand gun mag 44 and 357 and 410 loads, but in all cases here, the powder is used without any air voids in the case cavity. It when there is an larger air void in the volume of the load that all bets are off if the working pressure is going to be correct, or just get a over pressure burn instead with this powder (at triple or more over pressure that will cause the firearm to KB). As for the discussion of filler or not with this reduced volume loads with 296, best to just look at those not using a filler, as just those that have not had a problem yet. The rest of us that know the background of the powder, know better that to use it with a load that leaves a large air volume instead. |
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Posted: 5/22/2013 4:55:31 AM EDT
[#16]
I have been reloading for the 300 whisper/black for a few years now. thousands of rounds, subs and supers. While I have not used 296 or H110. I have often looked at the data. For the 300 whisper/blk, I have never heard of the need for a filler.
Now I have read of plenty of issues of 296 and H110 not generating enough pressure at subsonic velocities to operate a semi auto. Check over at 300 blk Talk i would not give up on lil gun either. I switched from A1680 (because I ran out and cannot find any locally) to Lil gun, and for my subs it is quieter and I don't get the gas in my face that I got from A1680. |
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Posted: 5/22/2013 7:18:44 AM EDT
[#17]
You shouldn't need a filler. A 200 grain bullet takes up a lot of space in the cartridge. I would start with the case gauge. You may need to bump the should back a bit more. I use the LE Wilson gauge.
If you are seeing rifling on the bullet when you eject a loaded round, I think you should reduce your OAL as well. H110 usually isn't recommended for Subs in a semi-auto but your pistol length gas system is supposed to help with that. I'd run your gas wide open and then turn it down once you get your ammo and bolt problem sorted out. When you eject the loaded round after the first shot, is there any damage to the case or the bullet besides the rifling? As it feeds, you may be striking the case mouth a bit on the feed ramp or chamber entrance. This could deform it enough not to chamber all the way. |
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Posted: 5/22/2013 8:22:26 AM EDT
[#18]
The bullets being used are 200 gr Nosler's with the white plastic tip, they are fairly long as far as a bullet goes. I purchased some 230gr HP Berger's which are EXTREMELY long (I think 3/4 as long as the case is), and then some blemished bullets from Midway which are 150gr boat tails which are extremely short little bullets. I will check my loaded rounds with the Sheridan Engineering gauge when it arrives today, and see if I'm close as far as case length. I will try and shorten my OAL as well and see if they feed any better. The cases (all 2 that I shot) came out of the gun just fine, and look like once fired brass. No noticeable dents, dings, or crimps but then again I didn't look at them real close after having the 2nd round jam and only have the trigger go click. Everyplace I visit seems to be really low on Primers and Powder, why you'd almost think an anti-gun president is in office! I'm going to look at the 300 blk forum and see what I can find for loading data and suggestions. I guess once I find good recipe I should be good to go, it's just finding that mix right now that works.
Thanks for the help Sydaiz and Gary -Gus Quoted:
You shouldn't need a filler. A 200 grain bullet takes up a lot of space in the cartridge. I would start with the case gauge. You may need to bump the should back a bit more. I use the LE Wilson gauge. If you are seeing rifling on the bullet when you eject a loaded round, I think you should reduce your OAL as well. H110 usually isn't recommended for Subs in a semi-auto but your pistol length gas system is supposed to help with that. I'd run your gas wide open and then turn it down once you get your ammo and bolt problem sorted out. When you eject the loaded round after the first shot, is there any damage to the case or the bullet besides the rifling? As it feeds, you may be striking the case mouth a bit on the feed ramp or chamber entrance. This could deform it enough not to chamber all the way. |
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Posted: 5/26/2013 11:09:39 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
I was thinking it was the cases myself, I purchased them online from ARMSLIST, a guy in detroit was picking up range brass (223) and converting them to 300 blk. Then he said he tumbled (they are bright and pretty), deprimed (no primers were installed), and he said they were resized to fit. I ran about 30 of them in my resizing die until one of them didn't get lubed and seized my die, which halted my progress instantly. That's why I ran an OAL check on them from length, but I think I will check the cases tonight and compare to the SAMI standard. Paxton: I did build the lower myself (Detroit Gun Works Lower, with DPMS LPK, all Magpul grips and stock), and I will double check my hammer springs to make sure and maybe post some photos when I get the gun back in my hands (It's up north at the cottage right now, which is where I can shoot it). D16man, I have some regular 300 BLK on order from a company online, ordered 6 boxes of the standard PMC ammo, but it's on backorder until who knows. Just like a kid with a new toy, I wanted to get this thing tuned in without waiting on the ammo. *Shrugs* might still be waiting on ammo. Grim: yes, the bolt is picking up another round, it's just really seating HARD in the chamber. When I pull that 2nd bullet out of the chamber (after I pull the gunfighter charging handle back) the bullet ejects and another one feeds in, (the new bullet that fed in, doesn't fire either, again it's just another click) I did notice some pretty deep rifling marks on the brass of the bullet. I also thought it had to do with a headspace or barrel extension problem. This barrel is a 1 piece barrel and extension all in one, so I didn't need a separate extension installed. The barrel came from SKI Rifles, here is the link to the actual auction: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=331874286 Thanks for all help and tips, it looks like a little more playing around to do and double checking before she fires like it should, Gus Quoted:
Sounds like a sizing issue in the cases. If they are not sized properly that could cause what you have described. Are you reloading them or are you getting them from someone else? Are you sure of where the scratches on the bullets came from? If you have scratches close to the nose of the bullets and around the diameter of the bullets, that very well may be the rifling, signalling that the bullets are seated too far out for that particular bullet design, and your rifle's chamber. Simply measuring the OAL (over all length of the round may not detect the problem). You also can't set the OAL of a round by simply setting it to fit inside the magazine. You must set the bullet deep enough into the case so that the barrel's rifling barely misses making contact with the full diameter of the bullet. The nose of the bullet can enter the rifled part of the barrel, but the bullet can not be in contact with the rifling. This distance will be different for each different bullet design/type. Jamming the bullets into the rifling can cause excessive pressure and a Kaboom, because excessive pressure can be generated. If the scratches on the bullets are only on one side, then those are scratches from the bullets sliding in the gun on the way into the chamber, and not from being jammed into the rifling. If the cases were not properly resized with small based dies, the rounds may not be chambering completely, because the diameter is greater than the chamber diameter at the base. The gun may not be firing because the rounds are not being fully chambered, or because the firing mechanism is not correctly assembled. The hammer or trigger springs being incorrectly installed is frequently the cause of this. I'd suggest not firing any more of the reloads, until you have the reloads, and the gun examined by someone with extensive reloading experience and AR assembly experience (or an experienced gunsmith) who can determine accurately, what the cause of the scratches and your firing/functioning problems are. |
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Posted: 6/7/2013 5:18:51 AM EDT
[#20]
so any updates as to what the issue was after all
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Posted: 6/7/2013 6:22:45 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
You shouldn't need a filler. A 200 grain bullet takes up a lot of space in the cartridge. I would start with the case gauge. You may need to bump the should back a bit more. I use the LE Wilson gauge. If you are seeing rifling on the bullet when you eject a loaded round, I think you should reduce your OAL as well. H110 usually isn't recommended for Subs in a semi-auto but your pistol length gas system is supposed to help with that. I'd run your gas wide open and then turn it down once you get your ammo and bolt problem sorted out. When you eject the loaded round after the first shot, is there any damage to the case or the bullet besides the rifling? As it feeds, you may be striking the case mouth a bit on the feed ramp or chamber entrance. This could deform it enough not to chamber all the way. Agreed. While the OAL is important for many reasons, the cartridge headspaces off the shoulder. I use both the Wilson gauges as well as the Hornady LNL Headspace Gauge. I had some issues a while back with some 6.8 REM SPC not consistently firing. I ended up bumping the shoulder back a bit more and the issue went away. |
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Posted: 6/7/2013 7:01:46 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Try factory ammo before you take it all apart. Was headspace checked? This. Any time I read of a malfunction, and then read 'reloaded ammo' I think, "Have you tried factory ammo yet?" |
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