User Panel
Did you check your extractor to see if it was catching the rim? Did you check the ejector to make sure there are no sharp edges on it?
You checked a lot of things but did not check one of the primary causes, that being the extractor is TU. Gas Tubes do not go bad in 1,000 rounds. |
|
Bolt in hand, cam a spent case off the extractor to compress the ejector in/out of the bolt face a few times to make sure that the ejector is not binding in its travel in the the bolt face channel from all the way in, to all the way back out.
Next pull the extractor off the bolt, install a #60 O ring (about a dime at any hardware store) around the extractor spring, and reinstall the extractor. With every thing back together, pull the charging handle all the way back, and confirm that the face of the bolt does not retract back past the last of ejector port edge. The face of the bolt should stop about 1/8" to 3/8" in front of the back of ejection port. Lastly, use Sweets copper solvent to clean the barrel bore, then BreakfreeCLP (spray can works the best) to clean everything else on the rifle, including the chamber with a bore bush by hand. Also, don't forget to pull the buffer and spring, and give them a C:P cleaning as well. Note, bore first with sweets, then chamber with chamber brush by hand with CLP, the shove clean patches through the chamber/bore until they come out clean/dry. After you clean the barrel, then attack the rest of rifle. As for the B/C parts, allow the CLP to soak on the parts while you are cleaning the barrel and the fouling will wipe of the parts when you get to them. Once you have the rifle cleaned, then spray a coat of CLP on both the inside and outside of the B/C, give the B/C quick single shake, insert the B/C into the upper that wet, then cycle the action a few times to migrate the CLP through out the upper bearing surfaces (the gun is now ready to fire with the upper bearing area correctly lubed). |
|
Quoted: Next pull the extractor off the bolt, install a #60 O ring (about a dime at any hardware store) around the extractor spring, and reinstall the extractor. Tubb's says that adding an O-ring, when combined with their XP CS spring kit, will provide too much tension. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Next pull the extractor off the bolt, install a #60 O ring (about a dime at any hardware store) around the extractor spring, and reinstall the extractor. Tubb's says that adding an O-ring, when combined with their XP CS spring kit, will provide too much tension. Good catch, no need for the O ring with the extra tension extractor spring installed, so comes down to either bolt face retracting back past the ejection port, dancing the cases back int the action off the back of the ejection port window, the ejector not kicking the spent cases off the bolt face on the back of stroke stall, or short stroking going on with the back of B/C stall not great enough in regards to dead blow effect for a clean pivot point/dwell time of the spent case off the bolt face at the end of rearward stroke. As for if it is a stoking problem, that would rear its head by not locking the bolt back on the catch after the last round fired out of the mag. So if stroking correctly, then ejector binding up in the bolt channel or weak spring if you find that the face of the bolt is stopping before the back of ejection port window. |
|
Quoted:
Did you check your extractor to see if it was catching the rim? Did you check the ejector to make sure there are no sharp edges on it. Yes, I checked this when I replaced the ejector spring. Extractor functions correctly, and will always pull the spent round from the chamber. Also there are no sharp edges on the ejector plunger. Quoted:
Bolt in hand, cam a spent case off the extractor to compress the ejector in/out of the bolt face a few times to make sure that the ejector is not binding in its travel in the the bolt face channel from all the way in, to all the way back out. I have verified this as well. The ejector plunger will travel to become flush with the bolt face, and there is no unusual binding occurring. Quoted:
With every thing back together, pull the charging handle all the way back, and confirm that the face of the bolt does not retract back past the last of ejector port edge. The face of the bolt should stop about 1/8" to 3/8" in front of the back of ejection port. I just tried this test and it looks like this maybe my issue. With the charging handle all of the way back the face of the bolt is flush (or within 1/16") with the ejection port. Please excuse the bad picture it is hard to hold the charging handle back and take a photo at the same time. As you can see front edge of the bolt is very close to being flush with the ejection port. https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KZ2GsOgsl3g/TxULb3IkYmI/AAAAAAAAB18/992YWnNBTAQ/s800/bc1.jpg Also appears that in the past the gas key on the bolt carrier may have been interfering with the lower receiver above the buffer tube. I noted this when I replaced the buffer and spring but was assuming that it would be mechanically impossible for these two pieced to interfere, perhaps I was wrong. I have now used the bolt carrier to completely compress the buffer and there is a 1/8" gap between the gas key and the rear of the lower receiver. I will check this tomorrow with the original buffer and spring to see if it does indeed come into contact. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cTcjPkB856M/TxULcWHEvtI/AAAAAAAAB2E/CdZnhcxE240/s800/IMG_6979.JPG Given this, it would appear that the bolt carrier is over traveling during the stroke; giving me a goofy and inconstant ejection pattern and subsequently resulting in an occasional stovepipe. What could be some resolutions to this issue? |
|
Quoted:
Given this, it would appear that the bolt carrier is over traveling during the stroke; giving me a goofy and inconstant ejection pattern and subsequently resulting in an occasional stovepipe. What could be some resolutions to this issue? It should be impossible. The length of the buffer should prevent your carrier key bottoming out on the lower like that. If you're using a carbine or other short buffer in a rifle length receiver extension, the carrier can hit the lower. If your buffer has become worn or damaged, it may no longer be long enough to prevent the carrier from hitting the lower. Carefully inspect your buffer. Check your buffer spring's relaxed length. Consider replacing both regardless. |
|
Pick your poison,
Permanent correction is to shorten the end of the receiver extension to be able to thread it in farther to both, index the tube needed for the stock, so the end of the tube retains the buffer retaining pin, and to bring the back of tube end void closer to the receiver to correct the bolt face retracting back past the back of port window. Or as a quick/temp fix, just pull the buffer and recoil spring, then using fender or large nylon washers down the inside of the tube just a hair smaller in diameter than the tube's ID , shim the tube end of void surface forward that way instead. Also, as Circuits pointed out, check the buffer bumper. You did not give a round count, but the bumper had to go way south/shorten out before the back of the key should even be close to touching the back of the lower receive threaded section with the correct buffer in play. |
|
Did a little research and came across this;:
by Adam Morris [email protected] While attending one of Defensive Edge’s two-day carbine course Sully gave me one of his stocks to test out. The Sully Stock is a conventionally-designed AR-15/M16 fixed stock, but with a shorter length of pull designed for use with body armor, or anyone that prefers a shorter stock. It is approximately 8” long, compared to 10” for the A1 and 11” for the A2. The stocks also come with 2 buttpads. A standard lenght and an extended length that adds another 1" to the LOP. The Sully Stock is made of solid polymer and is finished in a very nice textured matte finish. It is designed for HARD USE and can withstand… whatever you can dish out. The Sully Stock also comes complete with all hardware needed including the Buffer Tube, Buffer, spring, butt plate, sling swivel, and screw. A note on the buffer system, it uses the ultra short tube like the RRA entry and the Ace ARFXE stocks. Source: DefenseReview.com (http://s.tt/13fpw) I'm not personally familiar with the Sully stock, but going out on a limb here, is it possible that you need a specific spring and buffer for the ultra short tube? |
|
Quoted: I'm not familiar with the Sully stock, but it appears in the last photo to be a fixed length rather than collapsible one. Going out on a limb here, but is it possible that you need a rifle length action spring and a rifle buffer? Nope, it is from the ban days. It takes a carbine buffer and spring. |
|
Photo of the buffer bumper please, since if the tube was installed correctly/was in spec, the bumper has to be all peen'd to hell to allow the key to crash into the back of the lower receiver tube threads.
|
|
Quoted:
Photo of the buffer bumper please, since if the tube was installed correctly/was in spec, the bumper has to be all peen'd to hell to allow the key to crash into the back of the lower receiver tube threads. I will take some photos tonight and get them posted up for your review. Thanks for all of the good input! |
|
Why not contact Sully?
http://www.slr15rifles.com/aboutus.asp Contact Information Phone: 763-712-0123 Fax: 763-712-1434 Mailing Address: PO Box 682, Anoka, MN 55303 Email: sully (at) slr15.com |
|
Here are pictures of the buffers. Stock buffer has ~900 rounds on it, the Spikes ST-T2 has maybe 100 rounds on it.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-n15qjeKdeGA/TxYr4hpkldI/AAAAAAAAB2U/qLzLMwNzhdU/s800/IMG_6982.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_FQ7ZKbGv94/TxYr4btPD1I/AAAAAAAAB2M/3XdVZnww4Sg/s800/IMG_6983.JPG the poly end of the stock buffer appears to be in excellent condition, and as you can see in the photo is the exact same dimensions as the spikes I replaced it with. I wonder if the mark on my lower was from a fluke one time occurrence. I am not sure what that would be but one would think that it would make some terrible noises if the gas key kept contacting the lower receiver. Also I have tried removing the buffer spring from the buffer tube to see how far the bolt will travel with just the buffer in the tube. The whole system bottoms out (buffer touching back of tube, and bolt carrier resting on the buffer) and there is a ~3/16" gap between the gas key and the lower receiver. I think that it is mechanically impossible for these two pieces to contact with the buffer in place. Here is a picture of the stock buffer spring: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-axp-0iWttG4/TxYsM0E-31I/AAAAAAAAB2c/ausldZT8SMY/s800/IMAG0350.jpg I believe that the spec for the carbine spring is just over 10" on the short side. Obviously the spring I have is far shorter than specified. This is what prompted me to replace the buffer spring with the Tubbs Precision one. Quoted:
Permanent correction is to shorten the end of the receiver extension to be able to thread it in farther to both, index the tube needed for the stock, so the end of the tube retains the buffer retaining pin, and to bring the back of tube end void closer to the receiver to correct the bolt face retracting back past the back of port window. Or as a quick/temp fix, just pull the buffer and recoil spring, then using fender or large nylon washers down the inside of the tube just a hair smaller in diameter than the tube's ID , shim the tube end of void surface forward that way instead. Wouldn't adding shims to the buffer system change the pre-load or spring constant of the buffer spring, potentially altering the timing? If this is not the case I will try shimming the system so that the face of the bolt protrudes ~1/8" above the rear edge of the ejector port. Quoted:
Why not contact Sully? Good point. I guess, my first nature is to ask questions on the web community before going back to the manufacturer. Part of this is that I am able to learn so much more about the rifle system and how it functions by asking questions. |
|
Quoted: Why not contact Sully? http://www.slr15rifles.com/aboutus.asp Contact Information Phone: 763-712-0123 Fax: 763-712-1434 Mailing Address: PO Box 682, Anoka, MN 55303 Email: sully (at) slr15.com Sully also is a Mod in this Forum, I sent him a IM with a link to this thread |
|
Ok, I have now added some shims to the back of my buffer tube in order to prevent the bolt from traveling too far back in relation to the ejector port.
Here is what is looked like before with the bolt held all of the way back: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KZ2GsOgsl3g/TxULb3IkYmI/AAAAAAAAB18/992YWnNBTAQ/s800/bc1.jpg Here is what it looks like now with the bolt held all of the way back: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IaRXObOUFNI/TxebM8IUjKI/AAAAAAAAB2k/a-EP704GaUw/s800/IMG_6991.JPG Does this appear better? Any thoughts on how shims are going to affect the buffer system? (changing spring load?, or if decreased travel is going to be an issue with my buffer contacting the shims?) I will be heading to the range to try this out on Saturday. Wish me luck! |
|
As long as the shims are being held to the back of the tube via the spring, your golden, so don't worry about the light spring tension increase.
But on the same note, when you get a chance, really a good idea to finalize by shorting the tube the needed amount instead. I always through of your rifle as a personal build, but if the lower can factory with receiver extension, then best to just send it back and have the manufacturer replace/correct the receiver extension. Also to point out, if you are just running 55/62 grain ammo, the heaver buffer you have in the rifle now is over kill. |
|
Dynapar,
was the rifle purchased from us or from who? Any idea of the exact age of the rifle, about how many rounds fired through it total, maintenance schedule and procedure (chamber brush etc), are the gas rings sealing, are you lubricating where all metal rubs metal on the bolt carrier assembly and with what lubricant? CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
|
Quoted:
Dynapar, was the rifle purchased from us or from who? Any idea of the exact age of the rifle, about how many rounds fired through it total, maintenance schedule and procedure (chamber brush etc), are the gas rings sealing, are you lubricating where all metal rubs metal on the bolt carrier assembly and with what lubricant? EDIT: After discussing with Sully we have determined that this rifle was not originally manufactured by SLR15/CY6. However it is merely a AR built using a CY6 lower receiver casting and a Sully Stock. I do not know the exact age of the rifle, as I purchased it used same goes for the total round count. I do know that there have been~1000 round put through the rifle sine I purchased it, with this issue becoming prevalent in last 300-400 rounds. On the maintenance front, I clean the rifle after every time I shoot it. Normally I put 100-200 rounds through at a time, so not very heavy usage. My standard cleaning regiment includes: -wipe down of the lower receiver -bore brushing the barrel and patching till clean -removing the bolt from the bolt carrier and scrubbing both bolt and carrier -clean the chamber with a chamber brush -scrub the upper with a softer nylon brush -clean the charging handle -light oil patch down the barrel -light coat of oil on the bolt -oil the wear spots on the bolt carrier For solvents I am using Hoppes #9 powder and copper solvents. For oil I was originally using 3in1 oil, but since this problem started occurring I have switched it up and have tried Remoil and also Rotella T T6 5w30 Synthetic. Next on the list is Slip200. Also since this issue has started I have expanded my cleaning regiment to include a complete tear down and clean of the bolt (ejector, extractor, and springs) and also running pipe cleaners down the gas tube. |
|
Casting??????
Looks like a forged receiver to me (would need to see the non ejector side at the selector to be sure), so best guess, forging instead. BreakfreeCLP to clean and lube everything on the rifle, except the bore, which Sweets solvent works great since is does not need a lot of scrubbing to remove copper, and does not leave behind a residue that may not get alone with CLP. And yes, chamber brush by hand with CLP to clean the chamber after you have cleaned the bore, When done this way, as you go to push clean patches from the chamber out the muzzle, the CLP remnants even after the patches come out dry lightly coat the bore for short time storage. |
|
Does your bolt carrier, bolt, and barrel have any markings on them, if so what are they? You have a forged receiver (T6 7075). You are also showing two different pics on the upper, as one has a carry handle and the other has a LMT stand alone rear sight, are these of the same upper?
Field strip the bolt carrier assembly. Remove the extractor assembly from the bolt and inspect for debris, if it has brass shavings or debris under it then scrub with a good solvent and tooth brush and remove any debris. It should have a captured spring on the back side, and possibly an O-ring or D-ring around it. If it has an O-ring or D-ring around it, remove it and clean the spring area. Inspect for an extractor spring insert inside of the spring (blue, black, or possibly some other color), it should have one and if not then get one and put it in. Inspect the face of the spring, it should be wound tight and flat on the top face. Clean the extractor channel where it grabs the lip of the brass casing. Scrub the bolt channel where the extractor goes into the bolt, and while you have the extractor off you can scrub the firing pin track (I like pipe cleaners for this). Lubricate and reassemble the extractor spring assembly onto the bolt. The ejector plunger should be sitting just below flush with the face of the bolt lugs. Push the ejector plunger backwards into the bolt, it should go below flush with the bolt face (the bolt face is where the firing pin comes out of), you are compressing a spring so there should be resistance, then release the pressure off of the ejector plunger and it should return back forward under its spring pressure. Lubricate the ejector spring (there is a small hole back by the cam pin hole in the bolt where the the ejector spring rides in its channel), and around the ejector plunger on the face of the bolt, then push and release the ejector plunger several times to work the lubrication into them. If the ejector plunger does not move freely with spring resistance) in both directions, then it needs to be removed and inspected for debris that is causing binding or a possibly damaged spring or plunger. Clean the tail of the bolt and inside of the bolt carrier where the bolt goes to remove any carbon build up (Slip2000 Carbon Cutter/Killer) works great for this. Heavy carbon build up on the back of the bolt or inside the bolt carrier can cause many issues of which one will be a timing issue. Check the bolt carrier gas key to make sure it is tight by trying to wiggle it, and are the gas key screws staked properly (photo please if you are not sure if they are done properly or not). Once everything is clean, the lubricate with everything with a good lubricant (my preference is Slip2000 Extreme Weapons Lube "EWL") and reassemble. Once the bolt carrier assembly is reassembled and lubricated, check the gas rings to see if they are creating a seal with the bolt carrier, if they are not getting a seal then I would recommend replacing them. Then with a clean rifle and gas rings that are getting a seal, go shoot the rifle and see what happens. Other possibilities are that your buffer spring needs replacement (they do wear out). Generally when we build a carbine length gas system rifle, we use a heavy duty chrome silicon cryo'd buffer spring and a heavier bolt carrier and heavy buffer (your pics of your buffer show that it is a standard carbine buffer, which means that your rifle may be cycling too fast). Your gas tube has a bell on it that creates a seal inside the gas key, if this bell is worn off then it could cause malfunctions, we check these with a gauge, and if it worn prematurely then it is usually due to an improperly indexed barrel. Another possibility is barrel erosion, which can be caused by heated rapid firing shooting session (mag dumps), a diet of tracers, maintenance, or a large amount of shooting. Inspection for barrel erosion something that we can take a look at if it doesn't turn out to be something simple. Greg Sullivan "Sully"e SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
|
I have not noticed any markings on the bolt or bolt carrier. Is there somewhere that I should be looking inparticular?
the barrel is a 16" M4 profile barrel. It is stamped on the top of the barrel, forward of the gas block, that it is Chrome line and a 1:9 twist. The pictures I have of the upper receiver do differ, it is in fact the same upper. Just over the course of the last week, I have received some new goodies for the rifle. the rifle originally came with a detachable carry handle rear sight, I changed this to the fixed rear LMT sight. the rifle also came with the standard plastic hand guards, I have now changed this to a free float rail system. The cleaning process you have listed, matches fairly well with what I have been doing. I have verified many of the key items you have mentioned: -Extractor has the blue plastic piece in it and no O-ring ( I recently replaced the spring to the Tubbs spring to try and resolve this issue) -Ejector plunger moves without obstruction, and travels its full range of motion.( I recently replaced the spring with the Tubbs spring) -Gas key is tightly attached to the bolt carrier, and the screws are staked. (just got some Slip2000 EWL in this week to use) -Buffer spring was out of spec, I replaced it with the Tubbs CS alloy one. I also went to the Spike ST-T2 heavy buffer (I also anticipated the cycling too fast issue) -Just put a brand new gas tube in, have not tested this yet. New tube appears to mate up well with my BCG. -Barrel appears to be in good condition (lands & grooves), to my knowledge the barrel has not been overheated or mistreated. One thing I am up to speed on is how to verify is if the gas rings are sealing properly. Is there a test I can do to determine this? Tomorrow I will be going to the range and can give this another shot. This time I have the shimmed gas system (per above) and also a brand new gas tube. I will make sure and post if these items resolve my issue. |
|
With replacing the front hand guards to a float tube, verify that the center of the feed ramps is centered on the front take down lube,hence that barrel did not slip in the upper receiver barrel socket when the barrel nut was tightened.
On the new gas tube, remove the bolt for the carrier, and using the carrier alone in the upper receiver, confirm that the tube is correctly indexed with the carrier key (will occur as the carrier gets about 1" from touching the face of the barrel extension. If needed, tweak the gas tube over the barrel to adjust the tube to key). Also, if you correctly index the barrel nut top gas tube channel with the upper receiver gas tube channel, the key will have some flex/movement to it in the upper receiver channel area. If you find that gas tube very stiff/satationay in the upper receiver, then the barrel nut was not correctly index for the gas tube, and now you have the tube wedged to one side of the upper receiver gas tube channel (not good since you need the tube to be able to wiggle a bit to self correct for the light slop of the carrier fit to upper receiver. |
|
I used the MI gen 2, 2 piece free float. This rail set does not require removing the barrel nut for installation. So everything is still indexed correctly. I also checked that the gas key smoothly engages with the gas tube.
|
|
I'm going to take a guess and say your bolt carrier is too short.
|
|
Quoted:
I'm going to take a guess and say your bolt carrier is too short. Only problem with that would be that the back of the carrier would not be back to the back of the receiver, and his buffer retainer would have sheared off a long time ago. Problem still seem like the receiver extension was not installed (shorted when needed to get the bolt to stop correctly against the ejection port) when it was installed. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm going to take a guess and say your bolt carrier is too short. Only problem with that would be that the back of the carrier would not be back to the back of the receiver, and his buffer retainer would have sheared off a long time ago. Problem still seem like the receiver extension was not installed (shorted when needed to get the bolt to stop correctly against the ejection port) when it was installed. Look at his buffer. It's getting chewed up by the buffer retainer. So either the buffer retainer hole is too far back, or the carrier is too short. The top of the buffer tube tower getting chewed up as well, leads me to believe the carrier is too short. |
|
|
Well I had good results at the range today. I put around 300 rounds of 55gr American eagle down the range without a stoppage. The ejection pattern has stabilized at around a 2:30 position.
Changes since the last outing are: -shimmed buffer system (3 quarters) -new gas tube -free float rails -new rear sight -changed lube to slip2000 ewl I am pretty confident that the issue is as dano523 has stated in the the bolt was traveling too far back in the ejection port. Possibly due to an issue with how the buffer tube was installed. This would match with the results I received from shimming the buffer spring. It appears that the shine I used were slightly too thick. As now on occasion the bolt will not lock back after the last round. I am going to remove 1 shim and see if this new problem persists. I feel that having two shims in place instead of three will resolve all of my issues. Once I have verified this I will look into a way to make the change permanent. I will be doing a full tear down and clean of the rifle to inspect for anything out of the ordinary. |
|
Quoted:
Well I had good results at the range today. I put around 300 rounds of 55gr American eagle down the range without a stoppage. The ejection pattern has stabilized at around a 2:30 position. Changes since the last outing are: -shimmed buffer system (3 quarters) -new gas tube -free float rails -new rear sight -changed lube to slip2000 ewl I am pretty confident that the issue is as dano523 has stated in the the bolt was traveling too far back in the ejection port. Possibly due to an issue with how the buffer tube was installed. This would match with the results I received from shimming the buffer spring. It appears that the shine I used were slightly too thick. As now on occasion the bolt will not lock back after the last round. I am going to remove 1 shim and see if this new problem persists. I feel that having two shims in place instead of three will resolve all of my issues. Once I have verified this I will look into a way to make the change permanent. I will be doing a full tear down and clean of the rifle to inspect for anything out of the ordinary. Since you have a parts gun that someone built, you could have non-factory parts or who knows how it is put together. The buffer tube (receiver extension/stock tube) on a Sully Stock is a short fixed tube that is made to a carbine tube length. If it is one of our factory tubes it will have a shoulder on it that should keep you from under or over screwing it into the lower receiver, as you tighten the tube into the lower receiver until the shoulder bottoms out against it. Then when you install the Sully Stock it slides over the tube, and the front of the stock will butt up against the back of the shoulder on the tube and lower receiver, and then the stock is held onto the tube with an 1" A2 butt stock screw. If the gun is short stroking, I generally look at the four gas seals, and in this case I would look at the the gas tube seal (bell). Can you post pics of the end of the old gas tube that goes into the bolt carrier gas key, this is an area that has a flared out circular ring that runs about 1/8" back from the open end. Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.