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Posted: 1/16/2012 4:57:25 PM EDT
I purchased a used AR-15 which , and have owned it for about 2-3 years. For about the first year I had it, the gun worked flawlessly.  After that it started to act up with a frequent stovepipe issue.  Because of this issue and time constraints I put the gun into storage (cleaned an lube prior) for 6 or so months. Now I am back at it, and sadly my AR is still not functioning properly.  

The gun was bone stock when the issue started:
16" Carbine M4 barrel profile
A2 Flash Hider
Standard fixed front sight/gas block
Flattop receiver w/ M4 feedramps
Forged Nickel extractor
Superior Arms / CY6 Forged Lower receiver
Sully Stock

The stove pipe is as follows: The spent shell casing will extract from the chamber, kick 90* and get wedged into the ejector port as the bolt feeds the next round from the magazine.  The result is that the spent shell casing is not fully ejected, and the new round is only 1/4 -> 1/2 way into the chamber.  Since the bolt is forcing the new round in and compressing the two cases together the old shell casing actually deformed the new casing.  The issue seems to be sporadic but occurring between 2-3 times per 30rnd magazine.

Here are some pictures of what I am trying to explain:

Stovepipe


From underneath:


Mock up of jam:


Bent shell casing:


Since this has been happening I have been to range about 5 or 6 times, trying to diagnose this problem.  I am using a variety of magazines (USGI, 20 & 30rnd PMAGs which all function well in other ARs) with mainly American Eagle 55gr FMJ.  (I have also run Fiocchi and Winchester through with no change). At this point this rifle has ~1000 rounds down the tube and has been cleaned and lubed after every range trip.

1.) Initially I thought the issue was with the ejector system, so I removed the ejector and spring and cleaned it really well and reassembled. This had no affect on my issue. I also thought it may be an issue with the spring being out of spec.  I have now replaced both the Ejector and Extractor spring with new pieces from David Tubbs Precision, still no affect. At this time I also verified the gas rings on the bolt were in good shape and aligned correctly, and also that the bolt key was still tight and staked.  

2.)  Next my research pointed me towards a gas issue.  Particularly short stroking.  At the range I did the recommended short stroke test, and the bolt always will lock back after the last round is fired from a magazine.  Not sure if this truly dispels this as a possibility or not.

3.) Perhaps the issue was too much gas, causing the bolt to bounce off the back of the buffer.  I removed my buffer spring, which measured ~9.75".  So I replaced the buffer spring with the David Tubbs Precision CS Alloy spring. At this time I also installed a Spikes ST-2 buffer, in an attempt to slow down the bolt speed.  At this same time I also installed a BCM Gunfighter charging handle (this probably has no bearing but who knows).  Of all of these changes there may have been only a minor improvement, seeing the issue change from 2->3 times per magazine to 1->2 times per magazine.  Again due to the sporadic nature of this issue this observation may not be relevant. Another observation at this point is that the spent casings (that do eject) do not seem to form a consistent pattern with about 1/2 going out at a 2 o'clock position, and the remainder coming back at a 4 o'clock position.

4.) About now I am running out of ideas.  I have pulled out the gas tube, (there was carbon fouling on the forward 2-3 of the gas tube, not sure if this is normal), I ran a pipe cleaner through the gas tube and have verified that it is free of obstructions.  I have also verified that there gas port on the top of the barrel is free from obstructions.  Since I have the gas tube out, I will be replacing it with a new one for good measure.  

Does anyone have any ideas on what could be causing this problem to occur?  Any and all thoughts are appreciated.  I just want this rifle to function properly and reliably.
Link Posted: 1/16/2012 5:05:05 PM EDT
[#1]
Did you check your extractor to see if it was catching the rim? Did you check the ejector to make sure there are no sharp edges on it?



You checked a lot of things but did not check one of the primary causes, that being the extractor is TU.



Gas Tubes do not go bad in 1,000 rounds.



 
Link Posted: 1/16/2012 5:23:08 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 1/16/2012 5:41:10 PM EDT
[#3]



Quoted:


Next pull the extractor off the bolt, install a #60 O ring (about a dime at any hardware store) around the extractor spring, and reinstall the extractor.



Tubb's says that adding an O-ring, when combined with their XP CS spring kit, will provide too much tension.



 
Link Posted: 1/16/2012 7:11:36 PM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 1/16/2012 9:11:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Did you check your extractor to see if it was catching the rim? Did you check the ejector to make sure there are no sharp edges on it.


Yes, I checked this when I replaced the ejector spring.  Extractor functions correctly, and will always pull the spent round from the chamber.  Also there are no sharp edges on the ejector plunger.

Quoted:
Bolt in hand, cam a spent case off the extractor to compress the ejector in/out of the bolt face a few times to make sure that the ejector is not binding in its travel in the the bolt face channel from all the way in, to all the way back out.


I have verified this as well.  The ejector plunger will travel to become flush with the bolt face, and there is no unusual binding occurring.

Quoted:
With every thing back together, pull the charging handle all the way back, and confirm that the face of the bolt does not retract back past the last of ejector port edge.  The face of the bolt should stop about 1/8" to 3/8" in front of the back of ejection port.


I just tried this test and it looks like this maybe my issue.  With the charging handle all of the way back the face of the bolt is flush (or within 1/16") with the ejection port.  

Please excuse the bad picture it is hard to hold the charging handle back and take a photo at the same time.  As you can see front edge of the bolt is very close to being flush with the ejection port.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KZ2GsOgsl3g/TxULb3IkYmI/AAAAAAAAB18/992YWnNBTAQ/s800/bc1.jpg

Also appears that in the past the gas key on the bolt carrier may have been interfering with the lower receiver above the buffer tube.  I noted this when I replaced the buffer and spring but was assuming that it would be mechanically impossible for these two pieced to interfere, perhaps I was wrong.  I have now used the bolt carrier to completely compress the buffer and there is a 1/8" gap between the gas key and the rear of the lower receiver.  I will check this tomorrow with the original buffer and spring to see if it does indeed come into contact.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cTcjPkB856M/TxULcWHEvtI/AAAAAAAAB2E/CdZnhcxE240/s800/IMG_6979.JPG

Given this, it would appear that the bolt carrier is over traveling during the stroke; giving me a goofy and inconstant ejection pattern and subsequently resulting in an occasional stovepipe.  What could be some resolutions to this issue?

Link Posted: 1/16/2012 9:27:06 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Given this, it would appear that the bolt carrier is over traveling during the stroke; giving me a goofy and inconstant ejection pattern and subsequently resulting in an occasional stovepipe.  What could be some resolutions to this issue?



It should be impossible.  The length of the buffer should prevent your carrier key bottoming out on the lower like that.

If you're using a carbine or other short buffer in a rifle length receiver extension, the carrier can hit the lower.
If your buffer has become worn or damaged, it may no longer be long enough to prevent the carrier from hitting the lower.

Carefully inspect your buffer.  Check your buffer spring's relaxed length.  Consider replacing both regardless.
Link Posted: 1/16/2012 9:40:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 1/17/2012 5:02:42 AM EDT
[#8]
Did a little research and came across this;:

by Adam Morris
[email protected]

While attending one of Defensive Edge’s two-day carbine course Sully gave me one of his stocks to test out. The Sully Stock is a conventionally-designed AR-15/M16 fixed stock, but with a shorter length of pull designed for use with body armor, or anyone that prefers a shorter stock. It is approximately 8” long, compared to 10” for the A1 and 11” for the A2. The stocks also come with 2 buttpads. A standard lenght and an extended length that adds another 1" to the LOP.

The Sully Stock is made of solid polymer and is finished in a very nice textured matte finish. It is designed for HARD USE and can withstand…

whatever you can dish out. The Sully Stock also comes complete with all hardware needed including the Buffer Tube, Buffer, spring, butt plate, sling swivel, and screw. A note on the buffer system, it uses the ultra short tube like the RRA entry and the Ace ARFXE stocks.

Source: DefenseReview.com (http://s.tt/13fpw)

I'm not personally familiar with the Sully stock, but going out on a limb here, is it possible that you need a specific spring and buffer for the ultra short tube?
Link Posted: 1/17/2012 5:17:10 AM EDT
[#9]



Quoted:


I'm not familiar with the Sully stock, but it appears in the last photo to be a fixed length rather than collapsible one.



Going out on a limb here, but is it possible that you need a rifle length action spring and a rifle buffer?


Nope, it is from the ban days. It takes a carbine buffer and spring.



 
Link Posted: 1/17/2012 9:40:17 AM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 1/17/2012 2:08:59 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Photo of the buffer bumper please, since if the tube was installed correctly/was in spec, the bumper has to be all peen'd to hell to allow the key to crash into the back of the lower receiver tube threads.


I will take some photos tonight and get them posted up for your review.

Thanks for all of the good input!
Link Posted: 1/17/2012 2:22:37 PM EDT
[#12]
Why not contact Sully?

http://www.slr15rifles.com/aboutus.asp

Contact Information

Phone: 763-712-0123
Fax: 763-712-1434

Mailing Address: PO Box 682, Anoka, MN 55303

Email: sully (at) slr15.com
Link Posted: 1/17/2012 5:36:52 PM EDT
[#13]
Here are pictures of the buffers.  Stock buffer has ~900 rounds on it, the Spikes ST-T2 has maybe 100 rounds on it.  
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-n15qjeKdeGA/TxYr4hpkldI/AAAAAAAAB2U/qLzLMwNzhdU/s800/IMG_6982.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_FQ7ZKbGv94/TxYr4btPD1I/AAAAAAAAB2M/3XdVZnww4Sg/s800/IMG_6983.JPG

the poly end of the stock buffer appears to be in excellent condition, and as you can see in the photo is the exact same dimensions as the spikes I replaced it with.  I wonder if the mark on my lower was from a fluke one time occurrence.  I am not sure what that would be but one would think that it would make some terrible noises if the gas key kept contacting the lower receiver. Also I have tried removing the buffer spring from the buffer tube to see how far the bolt will travel with just the buffer in the tube.  The whole system bottoms out (buffer touching back of tube, and bolt carrier resting on the buffer) and there is a ~3/16" gap between the gas key and the lower receiver.  I think that it is mechanically impossible for these two pieces to contact with the buffer in place.

Here is a picture of the stock buffer spring:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-axp-0iWttG4/TxYsM0E-31I/AAAAAAAAB2c/ausldZT8SMY/s800/IMAG0350.jpg

I believe that the spec for the carbine spring is just over 10" on the short side.  Obviously the spring I have is far shorter than specified.  This is what prompted me to replace the buffer spring with the Tubbs Precision one.

Quoted:
Permanent correction is to shorten the end of the receiver extension to be able to thread it in farther to both, index the tube needed for the stock, so the end of the tube retains the buffer retaining pin, and to bring the back of tube end void closer to the receiver to correct the bolt face retracting back past the back of port window.

Or as a quick/temp fix, just pull the buffer and recoil spring, then using fender or large nylon washers down the inside of the tube just a hair smaller in diameter than the tube's ID , shim the tube end of void surface forward that way instead.


Wouldn't adding shims to the buffer system change the pre-load or spring constant of the buffer spring, potentially altering the timing?  If this is not the case I will try shimming the system so that the face of the bolt protrudes ~1/8" above the rear edge of the ejector port.

Quoted:
Why not contact Sully?


Good point.  I guess, my first nature is to ask questions on the web community before going back to the manufacturer.  Part of this is that I am able to learn so much more about the rifle system and how it functions by asking questions.

Link Posted: 1/17/2012 5:41:40 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 1/18/2012 7:31:05 PM EDT
[#15]
Ok, I have now added some shims to the back of my buffer tube in order to prevent the bolt from traveling too far back in relation to the ejector port.

Here is what is looked like before with the bolt held all of the way back:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KZ2GsOgsl3g/TxULb3IkYmI/AAAAAAAAB18/992YWnNBTAQ/s800/bc1.jpg

Here is what it looks like now with the bolt held all of the way back:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IaRXObOUFNI/TxebM8IUjKI/AAAAAAAAB2k/a-EP704GaUw/s800/IMG_6991.JPG

Does this appear better?  Any thoughts on how shims are going to affect the buffer system? (changing spring load?, or if decreased travel is going to be an issue with my buffer contacting the shims?)

I will be heading to the range to try this out on Saturday.  Wish me luck!

Link Posted: 1/19/2012 5:40:06 AM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 1/19/2012 2:46:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Link Posted: 1/19/2012 5:55:33 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Dynapar,
    was the rifle purchased from us or from who?  Any idea of the exact age of the rifle, about how many rounds fired through it total, maintenance schedule and procedure (chamber brush etc), are the gas rings sealing, are you lubricating where all metal rubs metal on the bolt carrier assembly and with what lubricant?


EDIT:  After discussing with Sully we have determined that this rifle was not originally manufactured by SLR15/CY6.  However it is merely a AR built using a CY6 lower receiver casting and a Sully Stock.

I do not know the exact age of the rifle, as I purchased it used same goes for the total round count.  I do know that there have been~1000 round put through the rifle sine I purchased it, with this issue becoming prevalent in last 300-400 rounds.  

On the maintenance front, I clean the rifle after every time I shoot it.  Normally I put 100-200 rounds through at a time, so not very heavy usage.  

My standard cleaning regiment includes:
-wipe down of the lower receiver
-bore brushing the barrel and patching till clean
-removing the bolt from the bolt carrier and scrubbing both bolt and carrier
-clean the chamber with a chamber brush
-scrub the upper with a softer nylon brush
-clean the charging handle  
-light oil patch down the barrel
-light coat of oil on the bolt
-oil the wear spots on the bolt carrier

For solvents I am using Hoppes #9 powder and copper solvents.  For oil I was originally using 3in1 oil, but since this problem started occurring I have switched it up and have tried Remoil and also Rotella T T6 5w30 Synthetic. Next on the list is Slip200.

Also since this issue has started I have expanded my cleaning regiment to include a complete tear down and clean of the bolt (ejector, extractor, and springs) and also running pipe cleaners down the gas tube.
Link Posted: 1/20/2012 6:18:28 AM EDT
[#19]
Link Posted: 1/20/2012 12:59:37 PM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 1/20/2012 7:06:23 PM EDT
[#21]
I have not noticed any markings on the bolt or bolt carrier.  Is there somewhere that I should be looking inparticular?

the barrel is a 16" M4 profile barrel. It is stamped on the top of the barrel, forward of the gas block, that it is Chrome line and a 1:9 twist.  The pictures I have of the upper receiver do differ, it is in fact the same upper.  Just over the course of the last week, I have received some new goodies for the rifle.  the rifle originally came with a detachable carry handle rear sight, I changed this to the fixed rear LMT sight.  the rifle also came with the standard plastic hand guards, I have now changed this to a free float rail system.  

The cleaning process you have listed, matches fairly well with what I have been doing.  I have verified many of the key items you have mentioned:

-Extractor has the blue plastic piece in it and no O-ring ( I recently replaced the spring to the Tubbs spring to try and resolve this issue)
-Ejector plunger moves without obstruction, and travels its full range of motion.( I recently replaced the spring with the Tubbs spring)
-Gas key is tightly attached to the bolt carrier, and the screws are staked. (just got some Slip2000 EWL in this week to use)
-Buffer spring was out of spec, I replaced it with the Tubbs CS alloy one.  I also went to the Spike ST-T2 heavy buffer (I also anticipated the cycling too fast issue)
-Just put a brand new gas tube in, have not tested this yet. New tube appears to mate up well with my BCG.
-Barrel appears to be in good condition (lands & grooves), to my knowledge the barrel has not been overheated or mistreated.

One thing I am up to speed on is how to verify is if the gas rings are sealing properly.  Is there a test I can do to determine this?

Tomorrow I will be going to the range and can give this another shot.  This time I have the shimmed gas system (per above) and also a brand new gas tube.  I will make sure and post if these items resolve my issue.
Link Posted: 1/20/2012 7:24:13 PM EDT
[#22]
Link Posted: 1/20/2012 7:59:35 PM EDT
[#23]
I used the MI gen 2, 2 piece free float.  This rail set does not require removing the barrel nut for installation. So everything is still indexed correctly.  I also checked that the gas key smoothly engages with the gas tube.
Link Posted: 1/20/2012 8:14:06 PM EDT
[#24]
I'm going to take a guess and say your bolt carrier is too short.
Link Posted: 1/20/2012 9:29:50 PM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 1/20/2012 9:45:39 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm going to take a guess and say your bolt carrier is too short.


Only problem with that would be that the back of the carrier would not be back to the back of the receiver, and his buffer retainer would have sheared off a long time ago.

Problem still seem like the receiver extension was not installed (shorted when needed to get the bolt to stop correctly against the ejection port) when it was installed.


Look at his buffer.  It's getting chewed up by the buffer retainer.   So either the buffer retainer hole is too far back, or the carrier is too short.  The top of the buffer tube tower getting chewed up as well, leads me to believe the carrier is too short.
Link Posted: 1/21/2012 7:24:48 AM EDT
[#27]
Link Posted: 1/21/2012 12:04:42 PM EDT
[#28]
Well I had good results at the range today.  I put around 300 rounds of 55gr American eagle down the range without a stoppage.  The ejection pattern has stabilized at around a 2:30 position.  

Changes since the last outing are:
-shimmed buffer system (3 quarters)
-new gas tube
-free float rails
-new rear sight
-changed lube to slip2000 ewl

I am pretty confident that the issue is as dano523 has stated in the the bolt was traveling too far back in the ejection port.  Possibly due to an issue with how the buffer tube was installed. This would match with the results I received from shimming the buffer spring.  It appears that the shine I used were slightly too thick. As now on occasion the bolt will not lock back after the last round.  I am going to remove 1 shim and see if this new problem persists.  I feel that having two shims in place instead of three will resolve all of my issues.  Once I have verified this I will look into a way to make the change permanent.

I will be doing a full tear down and clean of the rifle to inspect for anything out of the ordinary.
Link Posted: 1/21/2012 8:42:59 PM EDT
[#29]
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