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Posted: 9/26/2005 9:28:29 PM EDT
All those fancy AR 15 do dads and gadgets sure look pretty on top of your tricked out M4 carbine, but what are you going to do for an extended SHTF scenario,( kind of like Red Dawn or the Post Man) where batteries are non existent? Do you think one would be better off with an AR15 with simple A1 sights, collapsible stock, with an M4 or 16" light weight pencil barrel for a true long term SHTF scenario.
Am I wrong by saying Simple is better.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 9:37:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2005 9:38:50 PM EDT by Zardoz]
Ever seen the expected battery life for an Aimpoint? Besides, it isn't like spare batteries are expensive, or take up much space.

Btw:

Am I wrong by saying Simple is better.
Nope, not in my opinion, at least.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 9:39:26 PM EDT
that's why we co-witness the iron sights
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 10:04:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2005 10:09:26 PM EDT by gmtmaster]
Just use irons. I cant stand the add on stuff.. I like it simple...Dont buy batteries.. Buy ammo!!

Link Posted: 9/26/2005 10:07:47 PM EDT
co-witness mang!

My favorite BUIS have all the features of irons, but don't have the extra weight of a carry hangle. LMT BUIS, RRA Dominator, etc.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 10:12:09 PM EDT
I have 2 years worth of spare batteries for my Aimpoint on my rifle. (dual-battery cap + spare in Larue cantilever mount)

I have a bunch of spares for my Pentagon light around the house, too...don't keep them on the gun though.


YMMV.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 10:51:19 PM EDT
Aimpoint M3... 50,000 hours on one battery, and you can easily carry three of them.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 11:08:28 PM EDT
From my point of view, reality is that I am more likely to use my AR to defend my home from a lone/small group of intruders rather than a platoon of Cuban paratroopers, so the EOTech sits there looking fancy and has two sets of back up batterys in the various stock/grip storage.

If I were shooting Cubans, then when the batteries died, I'd just flip up the rear sight and keep shooting.

Or get an Aimpoint.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 11:12:08 PM EDT
I think you should avoid night vision because it uses batteries. Much better to use natural night vision.

For a SHTF scenario you need:

A. Battery stash to go with your ammo stash. What good is your gun when the ammo runs out? Same with battteries and electronics. Should you use a sling shot becasue you have to stockpile bullets for guns and there are plenty of rocks laying around???

B. Get rechargables and a solar charger. They make rechargable AA and 123 cells. That covers most anything but the coin or 1/3N batts and you can fit enough to last you years in a plastic film container. See A.

C. Have backups to your electronics. Got a GPS? Have a compass. Have an Aimpoint? Have BUIS. You get the idea.

Why would you give up an advantage because if something happened you could lose the advantage? Should you have a 4wheeler with only a manual starter because an electric starter might fail so you should just act like it failed already and accept the inferior starter instead of having both? That makes no sense. Hope you dont have any batteries in your car because those can go dead. I suggest ALWAYS push starting your vehicle!
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 11:23:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
I think you should avoid night vision because it uses batteries. Much better to use natural night vision.

For a SHTF scenario you need:

A. Battery stash to go with your ammo stash. What good is your gun when the ammo runs out? Same with battteries and electronics. Should you use a sling shot becasue you have to stockpile bullets for guns and there are plenty of rocks laying around???

B. Get rechargables and a solar charger. They make rechargable AA and 123 cells. That covers most anything but the coin or 1/3N batts and you can fit enough to last you years in a plastic film container. See A.

C. Have backups to your electronics. Got a GPS? Have a compass. Have an Aimpoint? Have BUIS. You get the idea.

Why would you give up an advantage because if something happened you could lose the advantage? Should you have a 4wheeler with only a manual starter because an electric starter might fail so you should just act like it failed already and accept the inferior starter instead of having both? That makes no sense. Hope you dont have any batteries in your car because those can go dead. I suggest ALWAYS push starting your vehicle!

Wow. I could not have hoped for an answer that better represents my thoughts on the matter. Thank you, DevL, I would have screwed it up had I tried to explain it.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 11:27:43 PM EDT
Seriously, if times get bad there are numerous battery operated gadgets that will get used more than anything on your rifle, like a flashlight & am/fm radio. Not taking those either because they need batteries? Based on what one person can carry you'll probably run out of food and water long before you run out of ammo and batteries.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 5:01:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Just use irons. I cant stand the add on stuff.. I like it simple...Dont buy batteries.. Buy ammo!!

img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/Picture256.jpg



gmtmaster, Nice set up. That is exactly what I was thinking about.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 5:24:18 AM EDT
I'm still trying to find where to get a solar charger for the Pila batteries...
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 5:29:00 AM EDT
Oh, and one more thing, lets say you take a fall, and your pretty M4 carbine with it's flat top upper, supporting that sweet Eotech/Aimpoint takes the brunt of the fall, and suddenly becomes inoperable. Now lets also say that this happened out in the middle of nowhere, and all you have is your basic combat load, with a shitload of extra batteries for that banged up out of commission Eotech. Not good. This is why I like to keep it simple.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:08:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 6:11:06 AM EDT by boltcatch]
That's why we have BUIS's.

I any case, do you know something we don't? Is there some sort of disaster coming where all the AA's in North America will suddenly vanish? Do you have any idea how many freakin' batteries there are in this country? Shit, I could walk into an Ollie's discount store and find enough AA's to power an EOtech for almost a century.

Don't forget, of course, that you can get rechargable AA's and a solar charger. A dozen sets of rechargables would last you a long, long time.

These optics allow you to put more lead more accurately into your target in less time. That's why people use them. Your nice and "simple" irons also become useless when the daylight starts going, or if you go inside a dim building. You can't aim with sights you can't see.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:15:26 AM EDT
FWIW, all my lithium batteries for my Aimpoints and Surefire products have a 10 year shelf life and I always have several years worth of DL123s and decades worth of 1/3Ns.

No problem for those with a brain to make wise choices.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 7:15:49 AM EDT
Just pick up a back-up AR with just iron sights, for you paranoid zombie/vampire killers.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 7:40:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Beerbellybo:
Oh, and one more thing, lets say you take a fall, and your pretty M4 carbine with it's flat top upper, supporting that sweet Eotech/Aimpoint takes the brunt of the fall, and suddenly becomes inoperable. Now lets also say that this happened out in the middle of nowhere, and all you have is your basic combat load, with a shitload of extra batteries for that banged up out of commission Eotech. Not good. This is why I like to keep it simple.



Keep it as simple as you want, but running an optic (Aimpoint/ Eotech) gets hits on target faster. You can sit back without them and none of us are going to care, but it doesn't change that optics are the wave of the future for a reason.


You entire arguement about the "pretty M4 Carbine" holds no water unless you find one without a BUIS.

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 7:43:07 AM EDT
They say a picture is worth a thousand words....

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 7:50:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
They say a picture is worth a thousand words....

img302.imageshack.us/img302/4568/arms40lmedium3gz.jpg



Nice but how hard is it to turn off the eotech?
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 7:55:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Beerbellybo:
Oh, and one more thing, lets say you take a fall, and your pretty M4 carbine with it's flat top upper, supporting that sweet Eotech/Aimpoint takes the brunt of the fall, and suddenly becomes inoperable. Now lets also say that this happened out in the middle of nowhere, and all you have is your basic combat load, with a shitload of extra batteries for that banged up out of commission Eotech. Not good. This is why I like to keep it simple.



Pretty M4 carbine, so every US military personnel runnign those pretty M4 carbine using Aimpoints, EOTech, Surefire lights, PEQ2s are bunch of pantseies?? Their rifle can't take a beat under combat conditions?? you are saying electronics can't take some abuse and still work. you got to come out of your house more. I have seen Aimpojnts and EOtech taking tremendous beatings and keeps ticking, I have seen EOTech with part of the optic glass knocked out and the sight will still function, I have seen EOTech got smack aginst a concrete wall because the guy reppling down lost control and smack the rifle hard against the side of the building. If those electronic can't proven itself to be reliable and durable, do you think our military or those private contractor would put them on their rifles??

yea, if SHTF..... There will be no SHTF like postman or red dawn, it is impossible, your only SHTF type of things are like the current NO situation where you will be without support for few weeks to a month.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 8:05:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By boltcatch:
That's why we have BUIS's.

I any case, do you know something we don't? Is there some sort of disaster coming where all the AA's in North America will suddenly vanish? Do you have any idea how many freakin' batteries there are in this country? Shit, I could walk into an Ollie's discount store and find enough AA's to power an EOtech for almost a century.

Don't forget, of course, that you can get rechargable AA's and a solar charger. A dozen sets of rechargables would last you a long, long time.

These optics allow you to put more lead more accurately into your target in less time. That's why people use them. Your nice and "simple" irons also become useless when the daylight starts going, or if you go inside a dim building. You can't aim with sights you can't see.



Boltcatch:
I do not disagree that optics are a better choice at times, but in the event that your optics become damaged or unusable for what ever reason, does not help you when you need them most. I was just stating that if one was carrying an AR with iron sights, and happened to take one hell of a tumble with his rifle, the odds are that the AR with the iron sights would be back in action almost immediately, unlike the AR with a set of optics. Just my .02 thats all.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 8:23:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Beerbellybo:
Boltcatch:
I do not disagree that optics are a better choice at times, but in the event that your optics become damaged or unusable for what ever reason, does not help you when you need them most. I was just stating that if one was carrying an AR with iron sights, and happened to take one hell of a tumble with his rifle, the odds are that the AR with the iron sights would be back in action almost immediately, unlike the AR with a set of optics. Just my .02 thats all.



You obviously have no experience with the durability and downright toughness of the Aimpoint ML2 and M2s or the EOTech for that matter.

Why in the heck do you think ya see so many of them on our troopers weapons?

It's because they are practically indestructible.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 8:23:27 AM EDT
If the SHTF so bad I can't scrounge up batteries and my BUIS won't work anymore, by then my AR will be broken to the point it's a boat anchor. That's where I'm back to the Garands, Springfields, and Enfields. Once my grandkids run out of handloads for those, then they can pull out my flintlocks, swords, and axes and party like it's the French and Indian War.

I did a year in Iraq already. The techno-goodies are pretty durable, and unless you're doing a LOT of MOUT and eating up a pair of SureFire batteries a night, you can have a decent stash. My theory is short of either an all-out nuclear war, plague, or a comet fragment hitting the earth like the novel "Lucifer's Hammer", you'd have enough time during the decline to continue stockpiling.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 9:22:07 AM EDT
The world will run out of 556 before an Aimpoint goes tango alpha

Anyway when the real SHTF you will have far more worries than batteries...

Or stock up on them...

It all ends up like the guy who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, doesn't chase fast women,runs five miles
a day, swims two, bikes thirty and then gets hit by a bus..

imo
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 9:33:28 AM EDT
Neo-luddites are the world's funniest freaks..

You do realize that they have AAs even in the absolute shittiest parts of the world, right? They're used for a LOT more than just gunsights. I'd bail loooong before it got that bad.

Actually, as far as things go, I'd expect a lot of things to break before my EOTech. The stock and buffer tube, pistol grip, handguards, etc, etc.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 9:36:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 10:15:49 AM EDT by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By Beerbellybo:

Boltcatch:
I do not disagree that optics are a better choice at times, but in the event that your optics become damaged or unusable for what ever reason, does not help you when you need them most. I was just stating that if one was carrying an AR with iron sights, and happened to take one hell of a tumble with his rifle, the odds are that the AR with the iron sights would be back in action almost immediately, unlike the AR with a set of optics. Just my .02 thats all.



How many times do we have to repeat ourselves?

As several others mentioned a properly setup AR that uses any type of optics as a primary sight will also have a BUIS! If you have BUIS then you are still good to go in the scenario you mentioned!

If I loose my EOTech I will deploy my BUIS and I'll be on the same level as you but until then I'll take all the advantages my EOTech provides.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 11:06:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mayassa:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
They say a picture is worth a thousand words....

img302.imageshack.us/img302/4568/arms40lmedium3gz.jpg



Nice but how hard is it to turn off the eotech?




It isn't, but even if it were, I've never been in a hurry to turn off an Eotech.....

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 11:57:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 11:58:20 AM EDT by topgunpilot20]

Originally Posted By Beerbellybo:
Oh, and one more thing, lets say you take a fall, and your pretty M4 carbine with it's flat top upper, supporting that sweet Eotech/Aimpoint takes the brunt of the fall, and suddenly becomes inoperable. Now lets also say that this happened out in the middle of nowhere, and all you have is your basic combat load, with a shitload of extra batteries for that banged up out of commission Eotech. Not good. This is why I like to keep it simple.

a fall hard enough to destroy an aimpoint would probably be enough to bend the carry handle/rear sight of on A2 upper making the rifle completely useless. At least with the flattop, you can flip up the BUIS and keep going. the A3 gives you two different sights that can fail before you're screwed, while the A2 only gives you one.

And if you're going to say, "The A2 carry handle won't bend until the rifle is so damaged it would be inoperable anyway" then you now understand what everyone is trying to explain to you about the durability of the aimpoint/eotech.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:13:15 PM EDT
Reminds me of when I moved into a new neighborhood.... I was sitting on the deck with my new neighbor (a doctor) when a engine started up next door (his house). I asked what that was, he said, "it's my generator, starts up on it's own to charge the batteries, when the SHTF I'll be the only one with power and food."....

I told him I didn't need a generator. When he asked why, I stepped into my house to bring out my AR and told him "I'll let you and your family live in the basement"....

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:21:17 PM EDT
I have learned first hand the importance of an optic in a SHTF scenario. Now being in Iraq twice, it was hard to engage badguys at night with my issued M16A2 without an external light. The night site (Big Hole Arpeture) does nothing for you in complete darkness.

In Iraq the second time with now my M16A4 I bought an aimpoint and an LMT backup site and it was worth the money. On convoys with blackout lights on and NVGs, the badguys could not see us but we could see them.

Again it's your rifle. Put on what you like or shoot it bare. As long as your proficient good to go.

Max
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:37:50 PM EDT
I used to be a KISS type of guy until a handled an AR with a flashlight. Now my Ar has a flashlight. IMO that is a very important SHTF accessory.

CR123a batteries last years. I know from personal experience that they'll work after sitting on a shelf for six years. Now it may not be as fully charged (just a guess on my part), but that's good enough for me.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:50:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 200-10x:
Reminds me of when I moved into a new neighborhood.... I was sitting on the deck with my new neighbor (a doctor) when a engine started up next door (his house). I asked what that was, he said, "it's my generator, starts up on it's own to charge the batteries, when the SHTF I'll be the only one with power and food."....

I told him I didn't need a generator. When he asked why, I stepped into my house to bring out my AR and told him "I'll let you and your family live in the basement"....




I don't get it.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:52:30 PM EDT
1) I have an EOTech & weapon light for use in the home primarily and any other immediate scenario where an optic and light would be a big advantage. I'm not going to give them up because batteries might be hard to come by some time in the future.

2) Hello... BUIS. Can I repeat that?? HELLOOOOO!!! BUIS!

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 3:26:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 200-10x:
Reminds me of when I moved into a new neighborhood.... I was sitting on the deck with my new neighbor (a doctor) when a engine started up next door (his house). I asked what that was, he said, "it's my generator, starts up on it's own to charge the batteries, when the SHTF I'll be the only one with power and food."....

I told him I didn't need a generator. When he asked why, I stepped into my house to bring out my AR and told him "I'll let you and your family live in the basement"....




Ah, a looter in training.
Have fun when you get popped trying to take someone's food supply.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 4:25:26 PM EDT
This is why my Eotechs are AA versions.

AA's can be found in Walkmans, Discmans, smoke alarms, TV remote controls, Mini Maglights, radios, digital cameras, shall I go on?

But I have some spares with my rifles, too.

And if the Eotech malfunctions, I will just have to use the BUIS.

I don't see a problem here.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 4:27:02 PM EDT
BUISs

got extra batteries anyways w/ my mags and ammo
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 4:31:42 PM EDT
It's very simple:

My Aimpoint M2 sight have battery life of 10,000 hours with daylight setting. that's more then 1 year. With the 2 spare I keep in my MIAD grip, it will last 3.5 years if I just keep them on all the time. Those with M3 last even longer.

With that much time in hand, I will worry about getting food and ammo supply a lot more then my Aimpoint crap out on me.

Worse comes worst, with the QD mount and my ARMS #38 BUIS, I will go back to the same configuration as any KISS guys.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:05:21 PM EDT
Not to hijack this thread, but all this talk about batteries has reminded me I need to purchase a couple extra batteries for my comp ML2.
Anyone know of a good source to buy from?
Oh yeah, and my aimpoint kicks ass, and if it gets broke, thats why I have a ARMS #40 as a BUIS
Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:13:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 6:16:03 PM EDT by CJan_NH]

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:

Originally Posted By DevL:
I think you should avoid night vision because it uses batteries. Much better to use natural night vision.

For a SHTF scenario you need:

A. Battery stash to go with your ammo stash. What good is your gun when the ammo runs out? Same with battteries and electronics. Should you use a sling shot becasue you have to stockpile bullets for guns and there are plenty of rocks laying around???

B. Get rechargables and a solar charger. They make rechargable AA and 123 cells. That covers most anything but the coin or 1/3N batts and you can fit enough to last you years in a plastic film container. See A.

C. Have backups to your electronics. Got a GPS? Have a compass. Have an Aimpoint? Have BUIS. You get the idea.

Why would you give up an advantage because if something happened you could lose the advantage? Should you have a 4wheeler with only a manual starter because an electric starter might fail so you should just act like it failed already and accept the inferior starter instead of having both? That makes no sense. Hope you dont have any batteries in your car because those can go dead. I suggest ALWAYS push starting your vehicle!

Wow. I could not have hoped for an answer that better represents my thoughts on the matter. Thank you, DevL, I would have screwed it up had I tried to explain it.


A-freaking-men.

ETA: I have enough Aimpoint and Surefire batteries to last a lifetime. In a few years I'll probably have to start to giving them away before they expire.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:14:03 PM EDT

originaly posted by maxell27:
I have learned first hand the importance of an optic in a SHTF scenario. Now being in Iraq twice, it was hard to engage badguys at night with my issued M16A2 without an external light. The night site (Big Hole Arpeture) does nothing for you in complete darkness.



Ding ding! We have a winner! Thats exactly what I said.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 8:45:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
They say a picture is worth a thousand words....

img302.imageshack.us/img302/4568/arms40lmedium3gz.jpg



What type of BUIS is that Stickman? Thanks!
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 8:48:42 PM EDT
While we are at it here...what are the best BUIS out there?
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 9:15:46 PM EDT
I simply had no idea that the Eotech's were that rugged. All this time I was afraid to spend my hard earned green backs on one, because I thought they were as unreliable as your everyday optics, when used in abusive conditions. Maybe it's time to pickup a flattop upper, and start looking for a killer deal on an Eotech.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 9:22:54 PM EDT
Eotech is the new must have gadget... Aimpoints have been around for a while, but you can hardly watch the news and not see a Eotech on some fancy weapon somewhere. The durability is legendary, just yesterday I saw a thread where some guy just tossed his AR+Eotech into a rocky, shallow puddle of water... worked fine.

I'd never be cruel to my rifle though, haha
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 9:25:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By juran21:
Not to hijack this thread, but all this talk about batteries has reminded me I need to purchase a couple extra batteries for my comp ML2.
Anyone know of a good source to buy from?
.



Try Radio Shack. My local store have tons of them. If they don't have in stock, you can actually ask them to order it for you. For $5.99 a piece, it's not that bad consider how long it lasted in your Aimpoint.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 9:34:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 9:38:56 PM EDT by AWACER]
If it quits working; I'll flip a lever and remove it. No big deal. While they are working my gadgets are staying on my AR, they help me do my job. In some our lines of work SHTF every day.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 5:28:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Beerbellybo:
I simply had no idea that the Eotech's were that rugged. All this time I was afraid to spend my hard earned green backs on one, because I thought they were as unreliable as your everyday optics, when used in abusive conditions. Maybe it's time to pickup a flattop upper, and start looking for a killer deal on an Eotech.



They do NOT refer to EOTechs and Aimpoints as "COMBAT-PROVEN OPTICS" without reason.

Whichever your choice, a flat-top mounted with one of these choices is IMO the best it gets.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 2:18:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By taulce1:
While we are at it here...what are the best BUIS out there?





Troy

Same plane apertures, super low profile, locks in the up position, built like a tank.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 2:58:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
They say a picture is worth a thousand words....




The condition of the two lower screws on your EOTech look like mine....Looks like EOTech need to invest in some new screwdrivers.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:13:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 3:14:21 PM EDT by tripledouble]

Originally Posted By Beerbellybo:
All those fancy AR 15 do dads and gadgets sure look pretty on top of your tricked out M4 carbine, but what are you going to do for an extended SHTF scenario,( kind of like Red Dawn or the Post Man) where batteries are non existent? Do you think one would be better off with an AR15 with simple A1 sights, collapsible stock, with an M4 or 16" light weight pencil barrel for a true long term SHTF scenario.
Am I wrong by saying Simple is better.


No, you are not wrong by saying 'Simple is better'.
I think people get battery-powered do-dads and gadgets for competitions and hunting.
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