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Posted: 10/7/2004 1:01:52 AM EST
the dual QR levers on the ARMS 19acog Throw Lever Mount appear to be more 'rock solid' by design compared to the 19Sacog Single Lever Mount, but are there other advantages/disadvantages for these mounts that are not readily apparent?
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:18:31 AM EST
Neither. A Larue or even the Trijicon TA51 mount is a better choice than the ARMS mount.

I had a TA31F on a 19S and was able to slide the mount back and forth on the flat top it was mounted on, just with slight had pressure. The TA51 stays in place. I have no experience with the Larue, but have read in other topics that it's much better at keeping the optic in place.

Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:24:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 6:59:21 AM EST
i understand your preference for LTs, but it appears that it is made of 'unobtainium' without a supply for the civilian market...so...ARMS 19s or 19 ?
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 8:58:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 8:59:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By IL_Shooter:
i understand your preference for LTs, but it appears that it is made of 'unobtainium' without a supply for the civilian market...so...ARMS 19s or 19 ?



If you are going to mount it and leave it on, just get the #19S.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:35:35 PM EST
unfortunately, LT ACOG mounts are non-existent, even the inward lever models...it would be very helpful if someone could advise which QR mount is better...ARMs 19 or 19S
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 4:40:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 7:17:50 PM EST
How well do throw lever rings truly hold zero? It would seem that screw-in mounts are intrinsically more reliable in this aspect.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 7:41:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By ShadowOne:
How well do throw lever rings truly hold zero? It would seem that screw-in mounts are intrinsically more reliable in this aspect.



My ARMS 19S and 22M68 just do that. They are rock-tight but if I see any sign of them getting loose then I will replace all ARMS stuff to LaRue stuff (yes including BUIS). (I will have a valid excuse then; but for now ARMS is doing just fine, absolutely no problems.)

Its just that LaRue is better at doing that, not that ARMS sucks much.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 7:41:21 PM EST
ARMS came out with their patented spring loaded throw lever invention in the late 80's. The advent of lasers showed that thumb nuts would not repeat zero perfectly, because as the thumb nut was tightened, the laser would shift windage. The ARMS throw levers pull down instead of across and it solved the laser dots from shifting during on/off, and held zero dead on. ARMS and a lot of other companies make thumb nut fastenings, but the ARMS throw levers are the big seller. The spring loaded lever also absorb a lot of shock waves from firing and give longer life to the high tech devices, much like shock absorbers on a car/truck do. Since the throw levers are spring loaded, you can move them back and forth if you (realy want to push hard enough), but when installing them they should be placed in the foward part of the cross notch as all devices do go foward to stop, and never go backward in recoil, only foward. Those ARMS throw levers are on ground and aircraft mounted .50 cal MG's, 7.62 sniper weapons, the SPR sniper rifles, never mind all the M4's, etc., for good reason.
Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:27:17 PM EST
I have an ARMS 19S on my TA31 - no problems.

I also have ARMS #22M68 on an AImpoint M2 and Leupy M3LR in Afghan - no problems either.

My only problem with an ARMS thumb lever in on some (well two) M952C's that are weapon mounted here - they do get beat about and are gettign looser (but are still quite functional).

-Kevin

PS JACK good to see you back.

Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:01:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By IL_Shooter:
the dual QR levers on the ARMS 19acog Throw Lever Mount appear to be more 'rock solid' by design compared to the 19Sacog Single Lever Mount, but are there other advantages/disadvantages for these mounts that are not readily apparent?



I'd say the weakest link in all the ACOG mounts are the two screws that hold the scope to the mount. I read a post months back about a 3gun guy taking a hard fall and shearing off the two screws. The screws went before the mount gave out. I can't remember what mount he had, but the point is it may not matter which mount -- if the screws commont to them all are the weak link. I have a TA51 on one ACOG and A 19s on another they both hold and return to zero very well.

Between the 19 and 19s -- I'd get the 19s.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 6:32:10 AM EST
19s looks much cleaner and has a way smaller footprint
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 12:34:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By pazzo:

Originally Posted By IL_Shooter:
i understand your preference for LTs, but it appears that it is made of 'unobtainium' without a supply for the civilian market...so...ARMS 19s or 19 ?



If you are going to mount it and leave it on, just get the #19S.



If you are going to mount it and leave it....why get throw leavers???

Just get a screw mount TA51 or ARMS #10....Cheaper and more suited for leaving it on.

Matt Carper
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 4:14:56 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 6:33:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2004 6:35:01 PM EST by El_Roto]
coughcarryhandlemoutedACOGcough





Hehe! Whenever someone mentions ripping off the ACOG to get to backup sights, I just can't help myself.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 11:29:32 PM EST
FWIIW I use the #19 for the dual throw levers precisely. It may be an inch longer and 4 more ounces but it's worth it to me.

Link Posted: 10/10/2004 5:21:05 PM EST
I have a 19s and am about to go back to a standard two throw lever 19 with the ends milled off to shorten it's length. Why you ask? So that I can mount my ACOG in front of my PVS 14. The two throw levers allow one one the flat top and one on the top of a RAS bridging the gap. Also wiht the ends milled off the standard 19 I can get it one notch closer to my KAC 600 meter rear sight.

That's my .02 cents

IPSC_GUY

P.S. 3rdtk, where ya been?
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 5:26:54 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 5:31:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2004 5:35:38 PM EST by TREETOP]
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 5:50:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2004 5:52:42 PM EST by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:12:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:13:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 8:31:18 PM EST
The US military have been using ARMS throw levers since the late 80's, plus many other nations too. They were selected as standard equipment by many companies, to name a few I know of-Trijicon, Aimpoint, Shurefire, Laser Devices, NVEC, Leupold CQT's, and several other optic companies, because they do as advertised. Provide reliable accuracy and no wrench required, and no wearing off the finish of a weapon. Some military units buy all kinds of sample runs of new mounts, that is not an endorsment, it's an experiment. The #19 ACOG has been serving US troops for years and privides a plaftorm over bolt action receivers, and some extra eye relief and extended stability required on beltfeds. The 19-s is for the short receiver of flat tops as shown on the ARMS web. sight.
Jack
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 3:39:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 8:04:54 AM EST
Oh my! Why I´m not surprised about this LaRue vs. ARMS depate going on....

To the original question, I´ve been using ARMS #19S with TA11 on my M4 and it has worked without problems and I´m going to buy another #19S to my TA31, since I´m using uppers which are in spec...

MN
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 1:07:47 PM EST
I have tried both and prefer the 19S -takes up less room, looks better, just s solid.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 1:12:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 5:36:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
The US military have been using ARMS throw levers since the late 80's, plus many other nations too. They were selected as standard equipment by many companies, to name a few I know of-Trijicon, Aimpoint, Shurefire, Laser Devices, NVEC, Leupold CQT's, and several other optic companies, because they do as advertised. Provide reliable accuracy and no wrench required, and no wearing off the finish of a weapon. Some military units buy all kinds of sample runs of new mounts, that is not an endorsment, it's an experiment. The #19 ACOG has been serving US troops for years and privides a plaftorm over bolt action receivers, and some extra eye relief and extended stability required on beltfeds. The 19-s is for the short receiver of flat tops as shown on the ARMS web. sight.
Jack



Good to see ya Jack. You are correct. The military has been using ARMS products for a long long time. The Military (mostly the SF community) is now switching to LaRue Tactical products. Why? Because the ARMS throw levers are breaking, stretching out (becoming loose on the rail making them useless), screws are being stripped (as you have one type of metal screwing into another type) and levers won't close or open (to tight on the rail). As a dealer for ARMS I have PERSONALLY seen this happen to my ARMS products. LaRue Tactical is also using T6 Aircraft grade Alum, solid billet heat treated SS levers (not injection molded ones like ARMS uses) and the best part is that they ACTUALLY MAKE THEIR OWN PRODUCTS!!!


Good shootn Jack!

C4



What a crock. If someone wants to ask about something you don't represent, why don't you wait for a question about something you do sell? If the US military was realy switching to your new stuff, I'm sure we would all know about it. For everyones info. , most all manufactures use T6 alum., (AIRCRAFT AlUM?, WHAT PLANE?)LOL. all military suppliers use stainless steel where needed, big deal. ARMS and other makers have been for years, military requirerment! WOW!
Now go use your lever little wrench and tighten up the loose nut in you head too.
Jack

Link Posted: 10/11/2004 10:08:29 PM EST
The ARMS 19S should be fine for you. Also since it's shorter you can be assured if you change set ups (for example RAS II) it will fit.

I have owned a LaRue mount and they are awesome (how can you not like adjustable throw levers?). If I didn't already have my ARMS 19S I would probably get a LaRue mount. The other reason I don't switch is because I have an ARMS 40 rear sight and the 19S has a nice little tail on the back to match the contour of the 40 (looks nice!).
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:37:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 6:25:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
What a crock. If someone wants to ask about something you don't represent, why don't you wait for a question about something you do sell? If the US military was realy switching to your new stuff, I'm sure we would all know about it. For everyones info. , most all manufactures use T6 alum., (AIRCRAFT ALUM?, WHAT PLANE?)LOL. all military suppliers use stainless steel where needed, big deal. ARMS and other makers have been for years, military requirerment! WOW!
Now go use your lever little wrench and tighten up the loose nut in you head too.
Jack






Link Posted: 10/12/2004 6:35:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 6:35:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By TREETOP:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
...So your "flavor of the week" comment just shows your ignorance friend.



Exactly the response I expected from you.



C'mon Cory, anyone who doesn't march in lock step with Grant and worship at the armadillo altar must be ignorant.

You really should get with the program, I hear that the Kool-ade is out of this world.



Link Posted: 10/12/2004 6:36:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
That sure showed me didn't it slash!

C4



You show your ignorance in nearly every post, you don't need any help from me.



Link Posted: 10/12/2004 6:37:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 6:46:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 9:38:25 AM EST
In AMRS favour they do make excellent products for the Armed Forces - for both Day and Night sight QD RTZ mounts and IR Night fightting deviecs QD RTZ mounts that allow the troops to remove the systems when not needed and replace when needed - with RTZ capabilities.

Now most Armed Forces users will not need LaRue systems (fact) since the QC involved in M1913 rail approval makes ARMS an acceptable choice for those systems.

I have just gotten a few LaRue systems - however I am flying back to Canada tomorrow so my op usage of them is a non event (I left one LaRue EOthing(tm) mount with a buddy to get some personal feeedback on the results of the talcum powder like sand here)

IMHO having seen both system one will not go wrong with either - provided the following ARMS users have a QC program in place for their M1913 rails (both upper and MWS) - LaRue users don't over tighten their rails (cosmetic damage).


Cheers
(I had my "2" beers at the Belgian Mess tonight)
Kevin

Link Posted: 10/12/2004 9:56:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 9:57:50 AM EST by brouhaha]
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 4:16:46 PM EST


Also, weren't you told to stay from LT subjects on this board???? I know you are trying to not say there name, but since they are the ONLY ones that use a wrench to adjust the nut on there levers it is pretty obvious to whom you are talking about! Might want to be careful....


Good shootn Jack!

C4


Where in the world does this guy come up with such nonsense like above, from Mark Larue who has to be told not to put unauthorized other companies names on his products? In fact they had to tell Larue they did not like his products and to not use their name anymore or in the future! (mames given upon request!) (NO!, no one has told me not to say anything about that Larue lever actuated finish removing so called tactical lever. Why, who was to start protecting him, are you saying the owners of this thread, come on, please tell all of us if sensorship of facts is now going on. I hope that is clear enough for Mr. C4 grant, purveyor of inaccurate information, and denier of documented facts. Obviously, he has been fed some more LaRue BS, as I just demonstrated!
PS. GRANT, IT IS OBVIOUS BY ALL YOUR POSTS THAT YOU DO THINK YOU CONTROL THIS BOARD, BUT NOT UNTILL THE MODERATORS CONFIRM IT, BUT IT DOES APPEAR YOU DO BY WHAT THEY LET YOU GET AWAY WITH! I DO HOPE THAT EVERYONE REALIZES HE IS ONLY SELLING, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH HONEST EVALUATIONS, AND FACTS!. MAYBE THE MODERATORS WILL FINALLY PUT AN END TO HIS INCESSANT PATHOLOGICAL ATTACKS, PROMOTIONS, AND CORRUPT DISINFORMATION!

I'M THE REAL, GOOD SHOOTIN, JACK




Link Posted: 10/12/2004 5:56:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 6:02:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 6:08:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 7:22:09 PM EST
Grant, you are without doubt the biggest denier of facts and truth this board has ever seen,(carnival barker), and the all time (wise guy). No wonder Lt. Col. Dave Lutz from KAC and many (knowledgeable) other members are no longer active here. It's your loud mouth gas-hole ignorant lies, twisting the facts to suit yourself that many have no time to waste correcting your constant game playing. Case in point, you say with a wagging finger that I have been told that I have been warned I can't talk about LARUE TACTICAL PRODUCTS ON THIS BOARD, (DAMN, I JUST DID IT AGAIN). I ask by whom, and then you don't answer. Instead you twist it around that your free speech is somehow being infringed. The FACTS are that your (abuse) of facts, truth, honor, integrity, product ignorance, and self engrandizement for your personal financial gain only, with no intension of helping anyone that isn't going to send you money. is all well too documented. You cross the line time after time, and if anyone calls you on something, you have attacked them in the most vile low class contrived manners.
If you think a military man like Col. Dave Lutz, or inventor like Dick Swan, or any other person with (real) knowledge, that is willing to share with people from all over the world for many years; years before you opened your little gun shop, really care what a weapons moron like you thinks, well think again, if you know how. I and others tried to respond to the mans questions from personal truthful, first hand, or engineering knowledge, but as usual you came out with nonsense to buy a product you sell that has nothing to do with the mans honest question. I responded with more facts, and as a gentleman. You respond with more attacks. So pal, if you want to continue to use your well known limited knowledge and lies against facts, bring it on.
By the way MIM (metal injection molding) is used on all M16 weapons in many of the internal/external components, because alloys, shapes and hardness can be better consistently controlled. MIM accuracy in parts is well beyond what a CNC can provide in a consistent manner, and costs are kept at a minimum due to the very low rejection from not meeting a spec, and much less money lost in scrap/waste, everyone thus saves money. The average cost of a small mold is in the tens of thousands of dollars. On top of that, military requirements dictate MIM for many reasons beyond the above, such as some shapes and strengths can’t be made by a CNC machine. If you knew all that, then you misrepresented the facts, if you didn’t know it, then you should STFU!
Jack
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 7:31:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 7:32:17 PM EST by new-arguy]
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:12:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:13:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:44:25 AM EST
Jack -

You apparently missed this jewel:


Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
I am PROBABLY one of the MOST moralistic, honest and considerate dealers on this board.




Link Posted: 10/13/2004 5:01:02 AM EST

Posted By C4iGrant 9/3 @ 9:51 PM:
I do NOT believe that 3rdtk is Dick. I do believe that he has connections to ARMS and Dick (but is most likely not an employee). He is VERY annoying with his propaganda that is for sure!




Posted By C4iGrant 10/12 @ 10:56PM:
3rdtk I was wrong about the "you've been warned comment." I was making the assumption that you were Dick S...




Posted By C4iGrant 10/13 @ 9:12 AM:
... If you think so little of me, why didn't you say any of this to me when I met you at the shot show???? I went right up to you and introduced myself. My badge CLEARLY said G&R Tactical on it and I even told you that I was one of your dealers! We must of chated for 10-15 minutes about verious projects you were working on and how you had a hang over from the night before because of some party you were at. Remember??? I will most likely do the same again this year as I ACTUALLY enjoy talking to you! ...





Link Posted: 10/13/2004 5:02:37 AM EST
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