Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 8/29/2005 5:26:21 PM EDT
I was out at the range last week, shooting from a semi-enclosed firing line. The report of some of the rifles was so loud it made you skip a breath. It got me thinking.. "how loud is an AR at an indoor range or in a home defense situation?" Out of curiosity, I moved my ear protection ever so slightly forward for the next shot. BLAM!! he
So, how many of you who are using your AR for home defense keep a pair of earplugs next to it? How does dawning ear protection affect the tactical situation when you want to listen for a burglar sneaking up the stairs?

I think for now, I'll just keep my .45 next to my bed and keep the AR in the safe.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:29:32 PM EDT
If you need it in a defense situation, you won't notice the noise.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:30:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 5:31:00 PM EDT by photoman]
That all depends, whats more important, the little bit of hearing lose, or your life......
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:35:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goat007:
If you need it in a defense situation, you won't notice the noise.



Big +1
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:43:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:43:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:
That all depends, whats more important, the little bit of hearing lose, or your life......



+1
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:11:45 PM EDT
The temporary hearing loss really only affects by right ear (right handed shooter). In a defensive situation, I'd still have 1 good ear that I hear out of to stay aware of my surroundings. I'd be concerned with using a firearm that would render boths ears useless.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:13:24 PM EDT
A dead man hears nothing.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:13:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Soldiers fired off Garands and BARs in houses fighting the Nazis without being stunned. If you end up having to shoot some SOB in your house use the AR, the ringing in your ears will be the least of your problems.



+1
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:15:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:15:46 PM EDT
Why underarm yourself in the name of saving a little hearing?

My hearing sucks already, but I'll live the rest of my life deaf if I get the choice.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:17:39 PM EDT
i would think loud is good when shooting at the bad guy..
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:21:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
If you end up having to shoot some SOB in your house use the AR, the ringing in your ears will be the least of your problems.



Especially when the dead guy's attorney tries to sue your ass for wrongful death.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:22:14 PM EDT
The hearing loss is not temporary. When I go to the VA medical facility I see lots and lots of WWII and later vets with very bad hearing problems. All tell the same story, small arms and artillery noise during the war.

Cheers,

Phil
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:27:32 PM EDT
try firing off a 44 Mag inside. stuff flew up from the floor, fell from the ceiling. My AR had nothing on that inside. barely a dust cloud.


Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:30:01 PM EDT
See why sound dampeners should be un-NFA'd?
No worries of this when you have a suppressed rifle.
But I guess I'm preaching to the choir.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:31:20 PM EDT
um actualy shooting affects the other side. im a right hander and my left ear is shot. ive always been told this by the doc when im getting my hearing tests.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:42:52 PM EDT
I agree with BeckettOfNevada, I shoot right handed and my left ear is worse than my right ear. Neither one is worth crap though.

Cheers,

Phil
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:45:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BeckettOfNevada:
um actualy shooting affects the other side. im a right hander and my left ear is shot. ive always been told this by the doc when im getting my hearing tests.



I have the same phenomenon. My right ear lost 5DB, my left lost 30DB (midrange). I think my muffs may have not been sealing right. I now wear plugs and muffs...

I do keep a pair of muffs handy for home defense.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:48:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 6:49:36 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:52:01 PM EDT
Name a gun that isnt loud. Use a slingshot if noise is a big issue. You might be dead, but those ears will work great
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:25:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BeckettOfNevada:
um actualy shooting affects the other side. im a right hander and my left ear is shot. ive always been told this by the doc when im getting my hearing tests.

That's because the way most right-handed people shoot rifles, their head is slightly canted where their left ear is slightly forward, and their right ear is "behind" their head, relative to the muzzle of the rifle.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:38:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 7:41:03 PM EDT by misterjg]

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Nevermind



Aimless I was not trying to cause a stir. It was sarcasm. I'm just tired of hearing or reading about law-abiding citizens being taken through the ringer by lawyers and the dead criminals family. When a case involves a gun, the legal system can become pretty f@cked up.

Believe me surrender is not an option when it comes to protecting, myself, my family or my friends.
(.40 cal under the mattress and a loaded M4 in the closet)

Case-in-point:


Last year a woman here is San Antonio was awarded over $6.5 million in a wrongful death case.

Quick summary:

Gang member commits various crimes with his posse
Gang member leaves gang and turns States witness against other gang members
Fellow gang members are brought up on charges
Ex-gang member is key witness
Indicted gang members put bounty on key witness
Ex-gang member is shot dead out-side movie theater
Property Management Group is sued by the ex-gangbanger's girlfriend for just over $5 million for not providing adequate security
Case goes to trial, Management group loses
Plaintiff is awarded over $6.5 mil......WTF!!!!

Link
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:47:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:54:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:58:07 PM EDT
Well, having fired off rounds in a confined space, with little or no warning, I can tell you its no big deal. The uncontrollable shaking and wet pants later are a far bigger deal then the noise.

You do what you have to do to stay alive. The rest is just details.

.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:37:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lancelot:
Well, having fired off rounds in a confined space, with little or no warning, I can tell you its no big deal. The uncontrollable shaking and wet pants later are a far bigger deal then the noise.

You do what you have to do to stay alive. The rest is just details.

.




+1000
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:46:35 PM EDT
You can get "adjusted" to loud noises without being jumpy. It does take some time and you may loose some hearing. You just have to be around shooting more. I 've seen men sleep along side (within 5 yds) of artillery pieces as they were being fired. Yes they were extremly tired, but they did not even move in thier sleep as the guns went off!
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:57:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CaptSchofield:
You can get "adjusted" to loud noises without being jumpy. It does take some time and you may loose some hearing. You just have to be around shooting more. I 've seen men sleep along side (within 5 yds) of artillery pieces as they were being fired. Yes they were extremly tired, but they did not even move in thier sleep as the guns went off!



I was an FO. Couldnt sleep the first day or two at Ft. Sill, but you did acclimate to it quickly..
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:01:24 PM EDT
Shooting a 16" AR inside in a gunfight is about as loud as snapping your fingers. Don't worry about it. Your ears won't even ring afterward. Auditory exclusion offers great hearing protection.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:02:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 9:07:47 PM EDT by Not_A_Llama]
I'm not with the "suck it up"/He-man camp. You'll lose hearing short and long term if you get in a fight indoors with an AR. Short term bothers me more if it's life-or-death; I'd prefer to have the auditory advantage in a fight, so I've got a pair of Peltor Tactical 6s. At ~$70, they're an incredible deal.

Without going to suppressors, I think maybe a linear comp or Noveske FH would help in directing sound forward, which should cut down on reverb; sound reflection may still be an issue, though.

I recommend the amplified earmuffs.



Your body has NO physiological mechanism for preventing hearing damage, short of plugging your ears. Suggesting otherwise is INSANE, bordering on criminal. "Auditory exclusion" is a psychological effect that dictates what you pay attention to; it does not protect against hearing damage, and it cannot synthesize auditory information you need to fight.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:13:08 PM EDT
While I haven't done it yet, my old boss used to keep a set of those amplified electronic ear muffs next to his pistol/rifle/shotgun. He said he could pick up noise in the house better with them than without, and then they did their job to protect his hearing if he did have to fire.

Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:23:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 9:24:15 PM EDT by SPDSNYPR]

Your body has NO physiological mechanism for preventing hearing damage, short of plugging your ears. Suggesting otherwise is INSANE, bordering on criminal. "Auditory exclusion" is a psychological effect that dictates what you pay attention to; it does not protect against hearing damage, and it cannot synthesize auditory information you need to fight.


Your body has no physiological mechanism for stopping a bullet while you're screwing around trying to find your earmuffs while you should be tending to the threat at hand. There is no temporary loss of hearing, you can hear just fine, trust me. Yes, you might have minor hearing damage, but that's better than having a canoe-shaped head.

And the "auditory exclusion provides great hearing protection" comment was said in jest. Before you go saying that my comment borders on criminal, consider the fact that you are advocating screwing around with electronic ear muffs in a gunfight situation. Your suggestion might get someone killed, there, sparky.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:28:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 9:34:08 PM EDT by Not_A_Llama]

Originally Posted By SPDSNYPR:

Your body has NO physiological mechanism for preventing hearing damage, short of plugging your ears. Suggesting otherwise is INSANE, bordering on criminal. "Auditory exclusion" is a psychological effect that dictates what you pay attention to; it does not protect against hearing damage, and it cannot synthesize auditory information you need to fight.


Your body has no physiological mechanism for stopping a bullet while you're screwing around trying to find your earmuffs while you should be tending to the threat at hand. There is no temporary loss of hearing, you can hear just fine, trust me. Yes, you might have minor hearing damage, but that's better than having a canoe-shaped head.

And the "auditory exclusion provides great hearing protection" comment was said in jest. Before you go saying that my comment borders on criminal, consider the fact that you are advocating screwing around with electronic ear muffs in a gunfight situation. Your suggestion might get someone killed, there, sparky.



And from the neophyte-luddite / newbie crapposter / "gotta run my mouth" / first-semester premed dropout camp, conveniently ignoring the accepted use of amplfied headsets in military CQB, we have....
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:40:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Not_A_Llama:
And from the neophyte-luddite/"gotta run my mouth"/ first-semester premed dropout camp, conveniently ignoring the accepted use of amplfied headsets in military CQB, we have.....



Guess you've got me there. My apologies. You guys probably have been doing this sort of thing longer than I have, and have more experience. Again, sorry I ever spoke up.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 10:13:16 PM EDT
I fired an AK in the basement, and while it was loud enough that I heard a high pitch whine for the next few hours, I felt that I could have maintained sights on a taget and followed up with an accurate second shot.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 11:25:11 PM EDT
i hunt with the ar with no hearing protection, dunno about indoors but it aint that loud outside. i actually liked it cuz it added to the rush of running around the desert blasting at rabbits with iron sights
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 11:33:10 PM EDT
I fired an AR in a garage with no hearing protection and it was fucking loud.
No muzzle brake or anything either
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 12:00:08 AM EDT
I doubt that you'll hear the shot at the time enough to bother you and may not even notice afterward the ringing in your ears. The ringing may make it hard to hear another threat coming from behind or to the side of you.

It may also be hard when you are interviewed by the Police after the shooting. I read a book by M. Ayoob where he mentions that it's common after a shooting to have hearing loss and being dazed by the whole ordeal. The ringing and trauma of the event may make it hard to understand and answer the Interviewers questions.

When I fired my carbine in an enclosed shooting range, most around me thought it was loud and even had a few comments on it. I've fired blanks inside my house before to test out my hollywood blank adapter and it was loud. My ears rang for hours after that.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 12:06:00 AM EDT
OK, I've had my cooling off period. Sorry if I was everly blunt with anyone, but that's kinda my nature. I guess I should explain where I get my opinion from.

I have been a police officer for 9 years. I spent 5 years on a small (18-man) part-time tactical team. I have been a detective for 4 years. During my investigators training, we learned all about auditory exclusion, so I am aware of it. Right now, I am in a kind of hybrid street crimes unit that does street-level narcotics, alcohol enforcement, and some technical investigations (lab work and some crime scene stuff when they don't want to call out regular CID - we work at night). I also teach patrol tactics, including building searches and crowd control to new recruits. I wrote our team's sniper manual, developed our department's riot/ crowd control program, I rewrote the tac team tactics manual, developed our open field tactics, and assist with defensive tactics when I can. I also devoted seven years of my life to the men's department of the Navy (AKA - the Marine Corps) as a lowly TOW gunner. This is an infantry MOS, and since we were always divvied out to infantry battalions, I always did a lot more straight grunt training than I ever did TOW or CAAT team training.

I have talked to many officers who have been involved in shootings. I have actually been in a shooting within the last year and a half - so I'm a member of the club. It happened to be inside a house, and I was shooting a 16" AR. Multiple rounds fired, all that. You get the idea without me having to go into it (which I won't).

Now, I have talked at length with literally dozens of officers who have been involved in shootings, and every one commented on how quiet the gunfire was, and how it didn't affect their hearing at all. This mirrors my experience exactly. I cannot say that I didn't have some slight hearing loss, but I have not noticed it. I haven't had a hearing test done since I joined the department. Maybe I have had some loss, but I don't know. What I can say is that there were no effects on my hearing at all at the time. None. I have never met anyone who has said anything different. Maybe someone else who has been involved in a shooting that has can chime up.

Now, as to the hearing protection thing during a home defense shooting, lets look at that. Now, I can't say I am reading from the Great Big Book of Buglaries or anything, but I have worked a lot of them. Most people are surprised by a burglar suddenly entering their home (or waking up to one), or they come home and surprise someone who had broken in. In the latter scenario, the burglar probably already has your AR unless you walk around with it slung.

Now, in any of these scenarios, I can't imagine how it might be a good idea to put on - and fiddle with turning on - a pair of electronic muffs. Doing this causes you to not be paying attention to handling your weapon (if you even get a chance to get to your AR - the source for the beginning of this thread) and taking care of what is invariably an immediate threat. Most people who have thier house broken into are horrified, and can barely remember their address when they call the police. I doubt many people are going to remember that they even have ears, much less ear muffs, much less a switch on those muffs. That's assuming the batteries aren't dead since the chance of this happening are so remote that the hearing protection will have likely laid around for years.

Let's say that you're in your safe room, and you hear the burglar coming (say he's non-standard, and is actually some drug-crazed feind or sexual predator and you get a heads up when he kicks your door). Get the gun, light, and call 911. When would you feel comfortable setting down your gun, or light, or both to screw with your hearing protection? Since Murphy lives with me, that would be the instant the bad guy would come busting in with the shotgun and canoe my head.

Now, if you aren't surprised, and you know the intrusion or attack is coming (BG calls you and tells you he's coming over to kill you and your family), don't you think your time is better spent leaving, or finding concealement or cover, or calling 911 (which might be akward with the hearing protection on)? Imagine going to court and telling the jury you were so scared, that you put on your earmuffs and then shot the suspect because you were worried about hearing damage? Musta been pretty tense!!! I'm not saying you are required to abandon your house, but some evil lawyer might make a pretty good case out of this.

Yes, the military uses electronic hearing protection sometimes, but everyone I know who has been in the sandbox recently (and I know several) didn't. Maybe Delta guys and such use them. I know one Ranger who went over, so that's as close to a ninja as I get. The rest were just grunts or MP's. And since the HSLD operators who go into buildings day after day to search out and kill the insurgents use something, doesn't mean it's a good idea for Joe Average home owner. I betcha the Delta SEAL Ranger Recon Sniper guys whoare attacking aren't taken by surprise in thier house much. And if they are, I bet if they didn't have their electronic ear muffs on, they wouldn't bother. They would do what I'm advocating: not fuck with it and take care of business because fucking with hearing protection when you should be worrying about getting shot will get you dead.

Maybe I am a neophyte med school dropout or whatever, but since everyone I know (including me) who has ever actually been in a shooting like this says the noise is a non issue, I'm inlined to believe it is a non-issue. What is your basis for saying it is? Possible hearing loss? Maybe I'm just too simle to get it.

Maybe I'm missing something. I don't claim to know everything, and always want to learn as much as I can. If I am missing something, please let me know. But please don't say my recommendations border on criminal. That really did make me angry, because I think I have a pretty good foundation and background to build my case on.

Also don't take me wrong, I think protecting yuor hearing is important - I wear hearing protection at the range religiously, and even mow the lawn with it on. My friends made fun of me when we went to the Metallica concert, and I wore earplugs.

Sorry to cause a stir.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 12:27:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lancelot:
Well, having fired off rounds in a confined space, with little or no warning, I can tell you its no big deal. The uncontrollable shaking and wet pants later are a far bigger deal then the noise.

You do what you have to do to stay alive. The rest is just details.

.



The is in the details.

Link Posted: 8/30/2005 4:18:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
They sell silencers for the AR rifle platform. Quite nice and available from a dealer near you in CO.



+1 sbr and suppressor is teh solution!
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 4:23:46 AM EDT
SPDSNYPR, you said "I cannot say that I didn't have some slight hearing loss, but I have not noticed it. I haven't had a hearing test done since I joined the department. Maybe I have had some loss, but I don't know. What I can say is that there were no effects on my hearing at all at the time. None. I have never met anyone who has said anything different. Maybe someone else who has been involved in a shooting that has can chime up."

The hearing loss is undeniable and cumulative. You WILL notice it over time. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, the VA clinics are full of cases of combat induced cumulative hearing loss. This isn't a macho deal about how much loud noise you can stand, its about preserving your hearing. Some of those old guys can't hear squat anymore, even with hearing aids. You are living in denial if you think the noise has no permanent effect on your hearing.

Phil
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 4:52:44 AM EDT
How accurate are the electronic hearing protectors/amplifiers when it comes to picking out exactly where a sound comes from? Is it easy to tell that a sound came from a specific room, say, if there are three doors right next to each other?
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 4:59:24 AM EDT
As has been said

(1) You will probably not even hear the shots.

(2) You will have significant hearing loss.

Why risk it?



No longer than a 16" AR, and <140 dB.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:07:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:09:08 AM EDT
Easy to tell left/right as they are stereo. Hard to tell front/rear though.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:17:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By props:

The hearing loss is undeniable and cumulative. You WILL notice it over time. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, the VA clinics are full of cases of combat induced cumulative hearing loss. This isn't a macho deal about how much loud noise you can stand, its about preserving your hearing. Some of those old guys can't hear squat anymore, even with hearing aids. You are living in denial if you think the noise has no permanent effect on your hearing.

Phil



OK. But how is it different than with, say, a .357 magnum or anything else? Guns are loud and can damage your hearing. I know. Wear hearing protection always while at the range. I guess the key is to not have to shoot a lot of people in your house if you can avoid it. My contention is that if you are forced into a gunfight inside a house, the noise is not debilitating during or immediately after the encounter (which answers the original question I believe). And staying alive is what counts and not being dead is worth the minor hearing loss. The hearing loss argument aginst using the AR or messing with hearing protection in an already dynamic, unpredictable deadly force encounter is insane IMHO. It is for people who think they can control everything or think they know how it will "go down". Unfortunately, bad guys have a say also, or we would never even have gunfights. I think the AR is a comletely viable home defense tool - without hearing protection or the added expense or political hassle of suppressors. If you can afford one, by all means, get it. I can't.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:20:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Not_A_Llama:
I'm not with the "suck it up"/He-man camp. You'll lose hearing short and long term if you get in a fight indoors with an AR. Short term bothers me more if it's life-or-death; I'd prefer to have the auditory advantage in a fight, so I've got a pair of Peltor Tactical 6s. At ~$70, they're an incredible deal.

Without going to suppressors, I think maybe a linear comp or Noveske FH would help in directing sound forward, which should cut down on reverb; sound reflection may still be an issue, though.

I recommend the amplified earmuffs.



Your body has NO physiological mechanism for preventing hearing damage, short of plugging your ears. Suggesting otherwise is INSANE, bordering on criminal. "Auditory exclusion" is a psychological effect that dictates what you pay attention to; it does not protect against hearing damage, and it cannot synthesize auditory information you need to fight.



It doesn't matter what you use if your indoors, pistol rifle shotgun the blast will be there. Last time I had to respond to a middle of the night wake up call, I didn't have time to think about ears. I had time to grab the gun grab the light and go. I'll take the risk of the short term and long term hearing loss. And yes I've shot rifle and pistol indoors with no hearing protection.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:24:19 AM EDT
Some good comments here,

When in extreme situations the threat of hearing loss is so low on the priority list it is almost laughable. It doesn't matter whether it's an AR, a .45, or a shotgun. It is going to be noisy, messy and it most likely will be scary before and after the shooting.

Don't kid yourself with the "i trained for this day" crap. Yes that's great and hopefully your training leaves you with your motor skills usable. But you're most likely going to be nerved up. Most people don't recall that the noise upset them, if you had to shoot you were already quite upset to begin with.

Oh and if you think your nerves are going to be frayed up before/during a shoot; you will be even more a basket case after the shoot, when your adrenaline level drops down, and shock sets in. The interviews with the police will be conducted when you are crashing.

Hopefully the outcome is you and yours are safe.

My .02

Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:36:04 AM EDT
A serious situation....with serious conciquences...Not-a-llama is correct about permenant hearing loss reguardless of what one hears!! This should be a consideration when PLANING & TRAINING for an armed encounter. Their are no "easy" answers...if I need a rapid responce to a leathal threat, I doubt,unfortunatly,I will have time to don hearing protection. But If the scenario changes...i will adapt..
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top