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Posted: 4/3/2006 10:14:52 PM EDT
... shoot semi auto in the "third" position ?

I have an AR15, and I want to be able to shoot semi with the selector set in either the "semi" or the "auto" position. No, I'm not a poser - I want to try an experiment. Yes, it will be legal, as no other M16 parts will be involved and the rifle will only be capable of semi fire.

My question is, will it be easier to start with an AR15 selector and add the extra detent position, or easier to start with an M16 selector ? I have a good selection of hand tools, a drill press and (of course, duh) a Dremel. What say the hive mind ?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 11:32:04 PM EDT
Wait, let me get this straight.

You're "not a poser".... but you want your rifle to have a 3 position selector, and still fire semi....

What's wrong with 2 positions again? What's the disadvantage?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 12:16:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 12:32:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 12:34:15 AM EDT by sWs1]
An AR15 with a M16 selector would go like this:

Safe - Semi - Safe

No semi in the third position. . . unfortunately!
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 1:10:17 AM EDT
Care to explain the details of this "experiment" of yours? Sounds like a stupid idea to me, but what do I know.

IBTL
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 1:41:26 AM EDT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but an M16 selector counts as 1 part of the FA FCG, doesn't it? So by adding this one part, is that not illegal, since having any of those parts in or around your AR is against the law?


And yes, that makes you a poser, unless you come up with a really good explanation of how it doesn't.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:20:23 AM EDT
Dear ATF,

I don't know this person.

Thanks.

Mark.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:44:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gimme_A_Carbine:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but an M16 selector counts as 1 part of the FA FCG, doesn't it? So by adding this one part, is that not illegal, since having any of those parts in or around your AR is against the law? Where did yo uget this info it is wrong

And yes, that makes you a poser, unless you come up with a really good explanation of how it doesn't.



It is only illegal if the rifle fires full auto. Your info is bad.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:46:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sWs1:
An AR15 with a M16 selector would go like this:

Safe - Semi - Safe

No semi in the third position. . . unfortunately!



Can you explain why this is? I am not following you.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:48:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
I looked up poser in the dictionary and one definition was a person with a semi auto rifle who felt the need to have a semi auto position and markings where the normal full auto position is.



Yep.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:49:01 AM EDT
Take a dremel and grind an AR15 selector to match semi confige in the third position. You'll also need to make a detent spot and groove but it's not THAT hard to do.


BTW you will be a poser but what the hell eh?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:39:17 AM EDT
I used an M16 selector an an build I did a few years ago beacause that was what I had at the time. It does not fire in the Auto position on a semi auto rifle. It safes the weapon. Don't know why as I didn't worry about it and replaced the selector with an AR15 selector when I found one.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:45:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 6:49:23 AM EDT by taquito971]
Wow, look at all this bad info...

Personally, I'm kind of interested too. The simplest way to go seems to be starting with the FA selector. I'd modify that and see how it goes.

BTW, it is kind of poseresque, but so is a lot of this other junk people put on their rifles.

Brian

Oh, and you will have to modify the selector or the trigger. Unmodified FA selectors will not allow the weapon to fire in the third posistion.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 7:00:07 AM EDT
with a FA selector it looks like all you need to do is remove the little divider in the third position. I suggested an SA selector to keep the BATF demons on here away
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 7:10:30 AM EDT
If yo uremove the arm on a full auto selector the holds back the disconnector why wont it fire in the full setting on a semi auto? Anyone know the answer to this?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 7:11:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By sWs1:
An AR15 with a M16 selector would go like this:

Safe - Semi - Safe

No semi in the third position. . . unfortunately!



Can you explain why this is? I am not following you.



Not totally sure, man. Something about how a M16 selector has a cam designed to engage the FA sear/hammer, which is uniqe to FA lower parts kits.

When you flip the slector to the third position, and squeeze the trigger, it doesn't feel quite the same as 'Safe', but it definitely cannot fire.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:12:01 AM EDT

Orignally posted by Gimme_A_Carbine;
Correct me if I'm wrong, but an M16 selector counts as 1 part of the FA FCG, doesn't it? So by adding this one part, is that not illegal, since having any of those parts in or around your AR is against the law?



BATFE has ruled that "any M16 parts in an AR15 makes it a machinegun". Their ruling is contrary to law. Full auto parts are not illegal in an AR15 as long as it does not shoot more than 1 round per pull of the trigger.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:14:07 AM EDT
If you install the M16 safety unaltered, the shoulder in the middle will hit the closed off portion at the rear of the trigger, and give you a second Safe position.

If you grind off that surface in the middle, ytou will have accomplised two things.

1) The safety will no longer hit the shoulder at the rear of the trigger, and you will have two fire positions.

2) The safety will no longer be a select fire part, since even if you were to install it in an M16, you would still get only semi auto with the thing flipped all the way.

But yes, if you do it that way you are probably a poser. But hey, it's still a free (relatively) country, and grinding off that full auto shoulder means you don't have ANY M16 pieces in the rifle.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:33:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 9:37:42 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
An easier way is to use an M16A2 (Burst kit)...

Take the M-16 hammer and grind off the auto SPUR FIRST!!!
Then, grind off the part of the burst cam disconector that interacts with the burst cam.

When you install the modified M-16 hammer (no longer M-16 without the spur) and the M16A2 trigger with the two disconects. In semi you will have one of the two disconects grabbing the hammer. The second semi position will give you just the burst disconect cam...

I screwed around with this trying to come up with a single stage / two stage trigger using the selector but I couldn't figure it out... I use this concept with my lightning link to give me SAFE/SEMI/AUTO

www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=167

Oh shoot... I need to get more pics....
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:46:40 AM EDT
Quality Parts Corp sells a drop-in ambi safety, that will do safe/fire/safe.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 9:46:19 AM EDT
poser nothing, you figure out how to make it work cheaply let me know. I'm ambi dextrous and practice shooting both ways, and in the fire position the selector stabs my left hand.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 10:08:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:

BATFE has ruled that "any M16 parts in an AR15 makes it a machinegun".



Please post this ruling. Because BATF has a couple of letters out there stating otherwise. The most recent being the letter about the M16 bolt carrier that has been repposted on this site several times.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 10:10:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
...I screwed around with this trying to come up with a single stage / two stage trigger using the selector but I couldn't figure it out... I use this concept with my lightning link to give me SAFE/SEMI/AUTO

www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=167



That is SLICK! You get select fire capability using the "cheaper than a RDIAS" LL? That is neat.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 1:52:27 PM EDT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:

BATFE has ruled that "any M16 parts in an AR15 makes it a machinegun".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Please post this ruling. Because BATF has a couple of letters out there stating otherwise. The most recent being the letter about the M16 bolt carrier that has been repposted on this site several times.



Let me do some diggin.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 2:24:22 PM EDT
improvise... adapt
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 2:50:46 PM EDT



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:

BATFE has ruled that "any M16 parts in an AR15 makes it a machinegun".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




That is a myth. The only determination of what makes a firearm a machine gun is the ability to fire multiple rounds with a single pull of the trigger. M16 parts in an AR15 are not illegal unless they enable the weapon to fire fully automatically. In addition to the regular fire control system parts, an M16 requires an additional component called an auto sear that attaches to the receiver via a pin hole not present on an AR15 receiver.

Most retailers will not sell M16 fire control group components to someone without validating a copy of their ATF tax stamp for a NFA firearm. That is a business decision, not a legal decision. Many retailers will sell an M16 bolt carrier, just not the additional fire control components required to convert an AR15 with a drilled receiver auto sear pin hole into fully automatic.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 3:09:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 3:15:01 PM EDT by SBR7_11]

Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:

BATFE has ruled that "any M16 parts in an AR15 makes it a machinegun".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Please post this ruling. Because BATF has a couple of letters out there stating otherwise. The most recent being the letter about the M16 bolt carrier that has been repposted on this site several times.




Let me do some diggin.



CLICK ----> HERE ,, 3rd page down (155), left column, part way down (#2)
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 3:12:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 3:13:16 PM EDT by SBR7_11]
Dis-regard this one, double posting.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 3:38:31 PM EDT
If you want to achieve this cheaply then just order an "altered safety" from Sarco for $9.50. It is an altered M16 selector that adjusts in the three positions.....and yes it will fire semi in the fire and auto position. It will only make you want the happy switch to really work though. Pose away.

http://www.sarcoinc.com/m16.html
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 7:37:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 7:39:42 PM EDT by KurtVF]
that ATF letter certainly does not say that one M16 part in an AR15 makes it a machine gun. Not even close.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:02:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KurtVF:
that ATF letter certainly does not say that one M16 part in an AR15 makes it a machine gun. Not even close.



I got the exact same thing from that.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:14:22 PM EDT
someone with a post count of 2337 should know better..............



Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:23:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rogue007:
someone with a post count of 2337 should know better..............






Never understood what post count had to do with anything. Look at that neapolian guy....
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 9:02:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
I looked up poser in the dictionary and one definition was a person with a semi auto rifle who felt the need to have a semi auto position and markings where the normal full auto position is.



Link Posted: 4/4/2006 9:49:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 9:50:43 PM EDT by StealthyBlagga]
WOW - I go away for a day, and when I come back I've gotten two pages of posts, most calling me a poser. You are an uncharitable bunch, aren't you.

Actually, my primary interest is NOT posing or any kind of "dodgy" conversion, but rather I am interested trying what QB described... a selectable trigger feel based on safety position. To rotate the safety to the third position, I need to use an M16 selector or modified AR15 safety. Some of the more constructive posts here have actually been quite helpful - thanks to those who gave me a helpful reply. I'll post my findings here.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:15:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 5:17:53 AM EDT by Quarterbore]

Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga:
WOW - I go away for a day, and when I come back I've gotten two pages of posts, most calling me a poser. You are an uncharitable bunch, aren't you.

Actually, my primary interest is NOT posing or any kind of "dodgy" conversion, but rather I am interested trying what QB described... a selectable trigger feel based on safety position. To rotate the safety to the third position, I need to use an M16 selector or modified AR15 safety. Some of the more constructive posts here have actually been quite helpful - thanks to those who gave me a helpful reply. I'll post my findings here.



FWIW, I trashed a couple good 2-stage triggers trying to figure it out and I tried carving up my own parts with the dremel... It seems like it should be possible to have two selector positions for a Standard and LIGHT trigger pull but I have to tell you that I found it a real PITA and an expensive project if you are trying to cut up factory triggers to get it to work....

A trigger that I have been fascinated with is the KAC M-16 2-stage trigger for this project but I am not in a position where I can buy a $300+ trigger system and cut it up and hope I could get it to work... I even tried to get Knights to consider this but I guess they have better things to do...

I would love a Crisp semi auto trigger that goes like this....

SAFE
CRISP - Single Stage (say 3.5-pounds)
CORRECT - Two Stage (2.5-lb 1st stage, 1-lb second stage)

For something like a SPR or Dedicated Marksman Rifles (Sniper Use) the abuility to have a crisp single stage for close in targets and rapid double taps would be nice while a 2-stage trigger for longer range or small target use would be a huge advantage...

Like I said, I trashed at least three 2-stage triggers trying to find a way and I ended up giving up as even if I figured it out I would need to buy what ever 2-stage trigger from the manufacturer and then cut their trigger up... Then they would adopt the design and I would be SOL....

If someone figures a way out... I am in for at least six triggers like that (each of my AR-10s and AR-15s)...

Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:52:58 AM EDT
The single stage auto of the KAC is just the 2 stage pull with no single stage. Its not like an Accuracy Speaks single stage pull for example. After I figured that out I too stopped looking for the 1/2/S trigger. I remember when Quaterbore and I were talking about this in a thread a year or more ago on here.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 9:02:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
..After I figured that out I too stopped looking for the 1/2/S trigger. ...



So is that the trigger you are using now?
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 11:27:54 AM EDT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By KurtVF:
that ATF letter certainly does not say that one M16 part in an AR15 makes it a machine gun. Not even close.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I got the exact same thing from that.



Your'e right, but that letter scared the majority of the AR15 community into thinking any M16 parts in an AR15 are illegal.When ever "should " is used in a regulation/law, it needs to be ignored as "should" is not a directive but a recommendation.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 11:41:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:


Your'e right, but that letter scared the majority of the AR15 community into thinking any M16 parts in an AR15 are illegal.When ever "should " is used in a regulation/law, it needs to be ignored as "should" is not a directive but a recommendation.



Except when it is said by my wife... "You SHOULD help me clean this weekend" comes with the real meaning of "If you want any Milk and cOOkies you WILL do what I want"

I don't use M-16 parts without good reason but a selector that gives you two semiauto positions is still a semiauto...
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