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Posted: 10/5/2004 12:12:56 AM EST
I just built up my 24" franken rifle (Bushy NM 24" barrel, RRA upper and bolt, Ameetec lower) and the front end is very heavy compared to the buttstock.

I'd say the balance point is about where the barrel nut meets the upper receiver.

Do I need the 3.5 lb buttstock weight? The rifle weighs 9-10lb on my bathroom scale, about as much as my 16.5" barrel VEPR K.

I don't mind the weight at all, I thought a well balanced rifle might be better.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 12:56:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:56:05 AM EST
Yes, by all means, stick the lead in the butt.

You may have to cut off an inch or so off the tip to get the balance where you want it.

Don't forget to stuff the front of the stock cavity with rags so that the wedge has no air space between it and the end of the cavity. If you don't, the wedge will move fwd on recoil little by little, until your stock splits.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 9:18:08 AM EST
Don't cut-off the tip of the lead weight!! Use a wood boring bit to remove material from the weight until it balances where you want it to.

Then you won't need to stuff rags in the empty spaceDuxRus
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 10:06:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By DuxRus:
Then you won't need to stuff rags in the empty space.



Why would you need to stuff rags? If you remove the weight from the pointy end the weight won't rattle.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 10:41:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By DuxRus:
Then you won't need to stuff rags in the empty space.



Why would you need to stuff rags? If you remove the weight from the pointy end the weight won't rattle.



If you don't, the wedge will move fwd on recoil little by little, until your stock splits.

Ever seen a wood splitter? Same idea.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:04:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 8:07:11 PM EST
What about the wood splitter I keep in mine?
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 8:48:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 11:15:42 PM EST
ahh how stupid is the UN, why dont they disarm radical muslim countries(all of them), they are the ones causing all the problems.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 11:56:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 12:41:53 AM EST by Tweak]
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 1:22:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 1:23:12 AM EST by metroplex]

Originally Posted By Tweak:
Thought about lightening the barrel?



So I can shoot 500yd with a 14" barrel like you?
It only cost me an extra $10 to go with a 24" barrel over a 20" barrel. At McDonald's, this is called super-sizing for more bang for the buck.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 1:38:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 1:59:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 2:00:36 AM EST by pathfinder74]
I would say why add more weight to the rifle if you don't need to. If the rifle is only for shooting in competitions from a static/fixed position (as opposed to something like a three gun where you're moving) I really can't see the need. Slap a bipod on it and your problem will be solved if you're just bench shooting.

If you are planning on using this for neighborhood zombie patrols then you probably want to keep the weight down ad much as possible. The only advantage of sticking a lead wedge in the ass of your AR would be that when you have to use it to bludgen someone to death it'll take a lot of the extra swings out of the job...

Of course if you are planning to use a 24" for "patrols" then someone probably should have told you ahead of time that your arms are going to get tired quicker from humping such a long rifle rather than using a carbine...

My 16" XM15E2S V Match is definitely front heavy, but once the stock is on my shoulder it's not going anywhere. A 24" barrel might be a different story... 8 more inches of length might make a huge difference, I don't know.

Anyway... my $0.02 after taxes.



Link Posted: 10/6/2004 3:46:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 5:26:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
If you don't, the wedge will move fwd on recoil little by little, until your stock splits.

Ever seen a wood splitter? Same idea.



It's a freaking .223 what recoil?
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:08:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 10:09:07 AM EST by Southern_Raider]

It's a freaking .223 what recoil?


The same recoil that causes all the NM shooters to load the buttstock and handguards with lead. Nothing like a 20lb AR.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 11:18:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
If you don't, the wedge will move fwd on recoil little by little, until your stock splits.

Ever seen a wood splitter? Same idea.



It's a freaking .223 what recoil?



The cumulative one of thousands of rounds moving the wedge a little at a time.

The fucking Grand Canyon was formed by WATER, smart ass.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 11:19:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

It's a freaking .223 what recoil?


The same recoil that causes all the NM shooters to load the buttstock and handguards with lead. Nothing like a 20lb AR.



I bet you got your ass handed to you at a match, and now you whine about inane shit like that.

Hint: the weight isn't there because the recoil hurts.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:07:45 PM EST
The weight is there for better balance and reduction in recoil so you can follow up your next shot without trying to find the target again. I think that is what he meant when he talked about NM competition shooting.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:34:23 PM EST
Erm, OK, but you already have a really heavy barrel, right? Exactly how much is your rifle jumping after every shot? Don't you shoot from a bipod or off sandbags with that long barrel?

Personally, I would spend more time finding my natural point of aim. Once that's done the rifle doesn't move between shots. If it works with my .308 PSS shooting 168 grain bullets, it ought to work with a heavy AR shooting 62 grain bullets. IF after that you still find your rifle's jumping like a hot-wired rabbit, then adding weight could seem reasonable.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:36:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
The fucking Grand Canyon was formed by WATER, smart ass.



So if we leave our AR in the Grand Canyon the stock will split.

Now I get it!
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:37:56 PM EST
A rifle should be barrel heavy and the balance point being at the barrel nut is just about right. a 24" barrel is a little excessive IMO but WTF does my my opinion count for?
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:46:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
I bet you got your ass handed to you at a match, and now you whine about inane shit like that.

Hint: the weight isn't there because the recoil hurts.



Having a bad day? But no, I've never shot a match, so I guess my comment is no longer inane.

My comment was with repect to the other poster's: "It's a freaking .223 what recoil?" post. Of course the recoil doesn't hurt, but the statement remains: If the recoil isn't "offensive" in some manner, why the weight?
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 1:02:24 PM EST
Hey that's good news! My 24" AR-15 is barrel heavy and the balance point is just at the barrel nut.

When I shot off a bipod or sandbags with my VEPR K, the barrel end of the rifle would jump up about 4"-5" and I'd have to hunt for my target paper downrange.

I was afraid something like this would happen with the AR since the VEPR was also barrel heavy and the balance point as right at the mag well/barrel to receiver area.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 1:04:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Tweak:

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
The only advantage of sticking a lead wedge in the ass of your AR would be that when you have to use it to bludgen someone to death it'll take a lot of the extra swings out of the job...



that's also a good arguement for steel uppers and lowers.



Maybe we should get together and built the first all lead AR... On one end of the spectrum you have people who want to make one as light as a feather and on the other end they want something that could be used as a rifle as well as something to effectively weigh down their double wide during a hurricane (I'm gonna get flamed for that aren't I?).

Link Posted: 10/6/2004 4:24:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By El_Roto:
Erm, OK, but you already have a really heavy barrel, right? Exactly how much is your rifle jumping after every shot? Don't you shoot from a bipod or off sandbags with that long barrel?

Personally, I would spend more time finding my natural point of aim. Once that's done the rifle doesn't move between shots. If it works with my .308 PSS shooting 168 grain bullets, it ought to work with a heavy AR shooting 62 grain bullets. IF after that you still find your rifle's jumping like a hot-wired rabbit, then adding weight could seem reasonable.



Highpower shooters have to shoot offhand at 200 yards. THAT is the reason for the lead weight. To bring the rifle's point of balance in line with the bone support of your support arm.

Also, an front heavy, unbalanced rifle SUCKS to shoot prone for any length of time. And since the 600 yard stage of the National Match course is 22 minutes long, and we don't get to use bipods or rests, having a rifle that hangs well MIGHT just be a good thing.

Maybe if you got off the bipod, you might learn something else.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 4:55:44 PM EST
Did he say he was building a High Power rifle? Did he?

If he was I wouldn't have made one comment, but since he hadn't brought it up ONCE I thought I'd bring in my precision rifle experience.

You are now free to get over yourself.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 6:05:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 6:08:55 PM EST by Forest]

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
The cumulative one of thousands of rounds moving the wedge a little at a time.




Gravity pulls it back the first time you put the rifle in a rifle rack...

The stocks will take you smashing them on the ground with full foce and they can't take a bit of reciol with a little lead weight?

Funny how I've never heard any Highpower shooters complain about this. Must be one those things only the super-secret-ninja-squirilles know about.

P.S. It took millions on years for water to form the Grand Canyon - let me know how your stock is doing say on 06 Oct 2,002,004 ok?
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 6:50:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 12:49:26 PM EST by Lord_Vulcanizer]
All of this shit makes me laugh, really! If you want to then put the lead in it dude. If your stock splits then buy a new one, they are cheap. If you are worried about the silliness of 'splitting' a stock then you can go by "Big Wes's Heavy Barrel Support Recipe".

Step 1: Eat plenty of your mama's biscuits in the morning...if those aren't available eat someone else's!

Step 2: Get off your candy ass and go to the gym...if the gym is unavailable then volunter to dig ditches 3 days a week!

Step 3: Bench press that rifle over your head 150 times each night before you go to bed at night!

Step 4: If the above steps don't work then ship me the rifle, I am 74" tall and weigh 260 pounds, I can hold it up no problems!

PS, you could always buy a bag of birdshot, put it in a sock, then stuff it into your stock. Just beware that your stock 'may go off' at any time and could injure you or innocent bystanders


Thanks,
Wes
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:21:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

It's a freaking .223 what recoil?


The same recoil that causes all the NM shooters to load the buttstock and handguards with lead. Nothing like a 20lb AR. hr


My rifle only weights 17.1 pounds, unloaded.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:50:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By Tweak:
[runs to take the cleaning kits out of his buttstocks]



I was sweeping through the thread so fast, at first glance I thought you said BUTTOCKS.

Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:00:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
I would say why add more weight to the rifle if you don't need to. If the rifle is only for shooting in competitions from a static/fixed position (as opposed to something like a three gun where you're moving) I really can't see the need. Slap a bipod on it and your problem will be solved if you're just bench shooting.

If you are planning on using this for neighborhood zombie patrols then you probably want to keep the weight down ad much as possible. The only advantage of sticking a lead wedge in the ass of your AR would be that when you have to use it to bludgen someone to death it'll take a lot of the extra swings out of the job...

Of course if you are planning to use a 24" for "patrols" then someone probably should have told you ahead of time that your arms are going to get tired quicker from humping such a long rifle rather than using a carbine...

My 16" XM15E2S V Match is definitely front heavy, but once the stock is on my shoulder it's not going anywhere. A 24" barrel might be a different story... 8 more inches of length might make a huge difference, I don't know.

Anyway... my $0.02 after taxes.






I doubt a 24" rifle will be used for shoot-n-move

DON'T mess with the BBL...

Use the weight...
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:09:11 PM EST
I put lead birdshots in my Stock to balance my 24" initially (~1" barrel). It shoots almost without any felt recoil on bench...But only on bench, it was just too damn heavy to move around.

Eventually I took the lead out... it shoots just as well...
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:17:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 4:48:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By mr_smashy:

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

It's a freaking .223 what recoil?


The same recoil that causes all the NM shooters to load the buttstock and handguards with lead. Nothing like a 20lb AR.



My rifle only weights 17.1 pounds, unloaded.



OK, you caught me. Now my credibility is shot.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 6:25:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By metroplex:
I just built up my 24" franken rifle (Bushy NM 24" barrel, RRA upper and bolt, Ameetec lower) and the front end is very heavy compared to the buttstock.

I'd say the balance point is about where the barrel nut meets the upper receiver.

Do I need the 3.5 lb buttstock weight? The rifle weighs 9-10lb on my bathroom scale, about as much as my 16.5" barrel VEPR K.

I don't mind the weight at all, I thought a well balanced rifle might be better.



Since everyone else has thrown in their opinion, and since I'm trying to get 1,000 on my post count, I'll jump in here also.

Question - Have you shot the rifle yet? Are you going to use it in HP or just long range plinking / varmit shooting? As mentioned, shooting HP calls for shooting off-hand, unsupported. A little extra weight up front will help reduce "wiggle".

Best advice, shoot it in the way you intend on using it and if it doesn't perform to your satisfaction, then try a weight.

Good luck.
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