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Posted: 2/4/2006 4:08:53 AM EDT
[#1]
Interesting discussion. But it seemed like most of those guys are old timers that are stuck in their ways. They can't see the advantages of a high capacity, powerful, and concealable pistol, simply dismissing everybody that owns one as a "Rambo wannabe". I'm glad that old style thinking isn't prevalent in everybody, or we'd all be running around with Garands and 03's only. In this day and age you got to be open minded to new ideas and new concepts.
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Posted: 2/4/2006 5:04:52 AM EDT
[#2]
lack of education, now wheres my beta cmag lol
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Posted: 2/4/2006 5:32:40 AM EDT
[#3]
On what? I can't beleive I'm going to write this, but I'd rather have an FN FiveSeven. And they both fall far short of any other quality defensive handgun on the market. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 6:03:14 AM EDT
[#4]
i would not use the ar pistol for defense purposes unless it was my only choice.
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Posted: 2/4/2006 4:49:34 PM EDT
[#5]
While one of my AR pistols wouldn't be the first gun I grab if someone was breaking in my front door it WOULD be A gun I would bring along for the ride given a SHTF scenario arose. What amazed me reading that thread was the fact these guys where putting down a firearm they have clearly never fired. I agree it's loud, ever shot a 44 mag. with no plugs, it hurts too. Yep, there's muzzle flash, cool factor as far as I'm concerned. What really made me mad was when one of them ragged on the accuracy outside of 50 yards. If any of them wanna duel with a handgun at 100 yards, I'LL TAKE MY AR PISTOL.
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Posted: 2/4/2006 7:26:08 PM EDT
[#6]
I would not be adverse to using my AR pistol in a limited distance engagement such as indoors or to get out of the neighborhood, but only if I were prepared- such as earplugs in and not trying to react to an aggressive initial surprise contact. Used more as a small rifle for short engagements then I would not mind having to use it, but at hand to hand distances it is too unwieldy for anything except as a small club. That said, I think I would still prefer a short carbine to take advantage of the huge improvement in stability and flexibility that a stock can offer at most distances beyond 25m. Inside 5 meters or if that's all that's available then I wouldn't mind a pistol.
huge FLASH from an AR pistol? Get a Vortex FH! |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 8:31:57 PM EDT
[#7]
I wish people that didn't know what in the hell they were talking about would just put a sock in it.
Yes, the M-1 Garand was an awesome main battle rifle, Yes the Springfield '06 is accurate as hell, but this is the 21st Century, and because someone wants to make a pistol out of the AR platform does not give and older shooter Carte-blanche to slam someone as a Mall Ninja or Rambo wanna-be. Our use of AR pistols and such is just "pushing the envelope" so to speak, just like the M1 Garand was to the Springfield when intially introduced (The old timers were slow to catch on but eventually the "new" thing became accepted). I guess these folks never experienced the fireball and ear deafening report of an AR pistol, as well as the perma smile from such a weapon 
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Posted: 2/4/2006 9:14:47 PM EDT
[#8]
I hate the idea of any fellow gun owner, saying why do you need that? The libs could say that about alot of guns, and could make an argument that all anyone "needs" is a revolver(for protection) bolt action rifle(for hunting deer) shotgun(for bird hunting). Oldheads need to drop the "you don't need that" shit. They don't realise, they are giving anti gunners ammunition. I think "because I want it" is a good enough reason, for guns, hi-caps, or any other firearm related gadget. If all they want is a six shooter, and a garand so be it, nobody is making them get anything.
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Posted: 2/5/2006 9:25:40 AM EDT
[#9]
buy 70+ grain bullets for defensive purposes.
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Posted: 2/5/2006 12:59:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Uhm, no. AR pistols aren't pushing any envelopes. They're a legal way around registering a rifle as an SBR. Take away the NFA, and you'd forget about AR pistols. I don't know why everybody has to justify their firearms. If you enjoy AR pistols that's great. I have one planned myself. But I'm getting it because I want it. Not because I have any delusions about it's utility. |
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Posted: 2/5/2006 1:29:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Stryfe, you said it. They are a "BLAST" to shoot. And they can be VERY Accurate out to 100 to 150 yards, or maybe even further (I can say 150yds is less than 2.5" on a sandbag) with a rest or sansbag. I could probably do better, but I was freezeing.
But thay are a Blast to shoot. Chief |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 10:52:15 AM EDT
[#12]
"...a legal way around registering a rifle as an SBR" is pushing the envelope in a good way to me. And by taking away the NFA would not make AR pistols be forgotten, they are fun to build and a blast to shoot. And just because you don't find a use for them as a utility doesn't mean that is the case for everyone. Speak for yourself, hope you enjoy your future AR pistol as much as I do. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 11:11:43 AM EDT
[#13]
Gotcha. I was thinking "pushing the envelope" in terms of technology, not the law.
I mean seeing as the way you wrote your post comparing them to the advent of Garands. It was rather silly of me to think that you implied in any way that AR pistols were any sort of technological advancement over carbines that have been around since the '60s. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 11:13:19 AM EDT
[#14]
The ZM LR-300 with no stock would be interesting, but other than that AR pistols are tourist traps.
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Posted: 2/6/2006 11:14:12 AM EDT
[#15]
That'd be a better way of getting the OAL down to make it concealable than simply doing away with the stock. In fact, along those same lines this would be a great place to make the case for a folding stock AK or FAL. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 2:26:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Everyone needs to stop questioning the usefulness, or practicality, of any weapon. "Because I want one" should be justification enough. If the anti gun lobby were to read some of the debates/arguments, on this site and others, they would have our own words to justify taking away our guns, and hi-cap mags. Everyday there is a debate over how many rounds you need, or the practicality of a paticular gun. We may not all agree on how one gun compares to another, or how many rounds you should carry, but arguing whether or not "you really need that", or "why do you need a 30rd pistol mag" is stupid! To each his own! Everyone can't afford the lastest and greatest, just like everybody isn't, law enforcement or military trained. If carrying more rounds makes you feel better, or having an AR pistol, with a Beta mag, Acog , laser, and tac light, is your thing, or you just want a 38 revolver, and an old bolt action mauser, more power to you.
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Posted: 2/6/2006 4:18:38 PM EDT
[#17]
People just need to be a little more openminded and read my blog :P
55 grain bullets will not fragment out of a 7.5 inch barrel, but guess what? They make more than just 55 grain bullets. Buy 70+ grain bullets and they WILL fragment. I have pics on my blog. anathema-incarnate.blogspot.com. Check the archives from may/june of last year. http://anathema-incarnate.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_anathema-incarnate_archive.html |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 6:53:30 PM EDT
[#18]
i have a 45ac[ for defense i play with ar pistols for fun
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Posted: 2/7/2006 6:01:35 AM EDT
[#19]
I have an AR pistol,(10.5) and the fun factor was the main reason for getting it, but I think it could have decent defensive uses, it's compact for the number of rds you can carry, but more for home, and not for carry. Either way, they are fun guns, and that is reason enough for having one. There is always the chance of SHTF, and to me it would seem like a good SHTF gun, it is very accurate to 50yds, I haven't tried it past 50, and in most cases, you would probably be within 50yds of target. IMO, and if SHTF / BO I will load up every gun I own, not just one or two, I have all my ammo boxed up in large tubs, and could box up pistols, and load long guns in my vehicle pretty quick, I do this almost everytime i go to the range, and it doesn't take to long to round everything up.
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Posted: 2/7/2006 6:05:49 AM EDT
[#20]
AMEN! The AR pistol is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I mean, if you want a RETARDED TOY, fine! But if you think that thing is anything more than a silly gimmick, you're nuts. What kind of terminal ballistics do you expect to get out of a 7.5 inch barrel anyway? 
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Posted: 2/7/2006 6:41:37 AM EDT
[#21]
eklikwhoa,
Although "you" would not use an AR Pistol for self defense; put a stock on it, have the upper built by M16 Clinic, call it the Viper, and you will find them right now in the "sandbox" being used for "protection detail". I guess someone thinks the 7.5" bbl with the proper ammo has some use when it comes to saving lives. MadDog |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 8:17:05 AM EDT
[#22]
i am in the process of sbr'ing one of my lowers and to tell you the truth i would not use the 7.5" and plan on going with either 10.5 or 11.5. also plan on doing it to my 9mm carbine which i would rather pick up than a 7.5. |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 9:48:37 AM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 2/7/2006 9:54:07 AM EDT
[#24]
A 7.5" barrel isn't going to do you any good the heavier rounds that are better in the terminal prformance catagory are NOT going to get enough velocity to be effective terminaly(by that I mean reliably aand consitantly). They would have to use SP or other expanding type ammo to be effective with that short of a barrel. I'd never go shorter then a 11.5 on a .223 AR, but thats just me. |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 10:31:33 AM EDT
[#25]
Ding ding ding. AR pistol is a wannabe SBR either because they are illegal in the owners state(such as WA) or its not worth the effort to register it. Only reason I got one is 'cause SBR's are banned in this state. If I plan to indefinatly leave WA, it'll be SBR'd. Any practical AR pistol will be the same size as a practical SBR, just no shoulder stock. Practical being 10.5" or longer barrel, 1:7 twist rate, krink flash hider, and a load mimicing the Mk262. Works great and is plenty accurate. |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 12:51:01 PM EDT
[#26]
That would be someone who has a machine gun, backup, probably heavier weapons available, probably has backup available by radio, and is only interested in close threats. Not someone who might be bugging out, alone, and have limited resources. |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 12:54:37 PM EDT
[#27]
Ammunition is only useful when you know which way the pointy end goes. I looked at your post in the linked thread. Those aren't pistols, they're SMGs. They're not illegal in the US. Restricted perhaps, and illegal in some states. |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 12:58:32 PM EDT
[#28]
"Practical being 10.5" or longer barrel, 1:7 twist rate, krink flash hider, and a load mimicing the Mk262. Works great and is plenty accurate."
don't jump all over me, 'cuz I'm only asking so I can learn - when you say "practical being 10.5" or longer", would you include a 7.3" bbl if you were using hp or other expanding bullets? I'm just thinking that, of course I'd use something else if I PLANNED the fight, but wouldn't a 7.3" bbl with 75gr hp bullets be reliable for self defense if called upon in an emergency? Thanks. flcracker |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 1:19:09 PM EDT
[#29]
Stryfe,
My "Pistol" was set up exactly like the M16Clinic Viper in a semi-auto version before I got my NFA Stamp. All I did was add the stock when the stamp came in so the vipers in question really are no different than some pistols with the exception of no stock and semi-auto. MadDog 
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Posted: 2/7/2006 1:46:38 PM EDT
[#30]
The lack of stock is a difference, and my point.
I'll leave the bbl length argument to the others. Is your pistol, now SBR, any longer or shorter with the stock? Would you prefer it with the stock, or without? I know there are pistol buffers, and that oly has a setup that does away with the buffer. But why would you want a pistol when you can have a rifle? And how big a deal is the extra length of a carbine buffer over a pistol buffer? When someone tells me that they want a pistol rather than a rifle for a general purpose use, I have to ask why. And when the reason why ignores effectiveness for ease of concealment, and increased ammo capacity, I can't see any benefit. Sure, the first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun. But I don't see a point in meeting minimum standards when you have the option of using something more effective. What's really funny to me is that some of the proponents of using an AR pistol are calling the opponents ignorent. The question I first posed in this thread has so far gone unanswered. |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 4:07:07 PM EDT
[#31]
what???????? i cant beleive what i'm reading!!!!!!! i have shot my ar pistol i would most certainly use it, if a had to for home defense, muzzle blast and noise will most certainly make ANYONE take notice.
opinions and bungholes we all have one. no need to slam others for something you don't like especially if you never tried it....... |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 5:57:03 PM EDT
[#32]
AR Pistols are smile makers. They're loud and fun. That should be enough.
But think about this: If the SHTF, and you had to drive away from the area, would you really be able to carry your smallest rifle in the cab of your vehicle where it's easily accessible and deployable? Especially if there was someone in the passengers seat? I know I couldn't... A 7.5" AR pistol could be on my person in a 3 point sling and it wouldn't interfere with my ability to drive. Really the AR pistol's handling characteristics are more like that of a rifle than a pistol. You have a forearm for stabilization and the buffer tube to achieve cheekweld off of. In a 3 point sling you could push away from your body and achieve the triangle of stabilization similar to what you get from a buttstock. Also, you a have longer sight radius with the irons over a traditional pistol. I was easily able to hit the center of mass on a target at 50yds with an AR pistol. With a traditional pistol, that was pretty much impossible. (for mehaving Ultimately, these are just fun toys for us people who can't have SBR's. I live in WA and that's my motivation for wanting one. Plus, I don't want to lose the opportunity to own one if they ever get banned again. Oh yeah, and if they're so useless, why the heck did H&K make MP5Ks and SP89s??? |
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Posted: 2/9/2006 4:57:41 AM EDT
[#33]
AN ar pistol 7 or 10 incher is the ideal weapon to carry on your back as a backup in a SHTF situation. Good chance it uses same mags as your primary gun, the 10 inchers are capable of outstanding accuracy and decent penetration at ranges your standard sidearm can't touch ( 7 inchers obviously shorter distance of penetration and less elocity, but still superior to a handgun caliber), plus with no stock or forward grips, there's nothing to get caught on bushes, undergrowth, doorways, etc.
Even if an AR isn't your primary weapon, when you pop a 20 rounder in the magwell while it's on your back it disappears, and then you can carry a thirty rounder in a pocket so you have enough ammo to find another primary weapon or fix your own.... It's also fantastic for shooting your primary weapon prone, cause nothing sticks out the sides while you're laying down. heck, you can even lay on your back as long as you don't hae a tac latch or something. As one who hates vertical grips and loves short length of pulls, these are ideal. Mine can keep up with most 16 inchers in terms of accuracy and with the right ammo will stop a BG at the ranges that I'm capable of hitting one at. To make mine more anti-snag, I've replaced the buis with a troy rear and a YHM reailed gas block on front with a YHM folding buis.   |
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Posted: 2/9/2006 1:01:46 PM EDT
[#34]
the ar pistol would be my last choice in self defense and i own and have shot my pistol.
the blast will cause you to go deaf cause when shtf no goes lookin for plugs... the fireball will cause temporary blindness for both parties and porbably more for the shooter cause its right in front of him... to each their own, just my .02 |
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Posted: 2/9/2006 1:25:42 PM EDT
[#35]
There's not much trunk space in a Jeep and I think an AR pistol is one of my few choices for a go-to "long" gun in my vehicle. It may not be the greatest, but it's certainly better than nothing.
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Posted: 2/9/2006 4:06:27 PM EDT
[#36]
Any quality handgun, or an AR broken down and loaded into a toolbox rifle case would be better alternatives. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 3:18:26 AM EDT
[#37]
I always have a handgun, and I'd the go-to "long" gun to be something I can go directly to - not have to stop and assemble. Remember, the handgun is there so you can fight your way to the long gun you shouldn't have left behind. I'm not going to stop to put something together if I'm fighting my way to it. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 3:37:14 AM EDT
[#38]
the pistol will hold you off till you can snap two pins together to have a rifle that can do it all, i would rather keep with the pistol than trade off to an ar pistol |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:21:31 PM EDT
[#39]
What eklikwhoa said. If the handgun doesn't decide the issue, you need to be putting distance between you and the threat. If you really need the rifle you'll have the chance to put it together. Either way, it's most likely gonna be locked and unloaded to begin with, isn't it?
The real key here lies in something you wrote, "It may not be the greatest, but it's certainly better than nothing." Why settle for the rest, when you can have the best? |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 7:11:31 PM EDT
[#40]
Most states wont let you carry a loaded SBR around under your coat - or in your Vehicle. With an AR pistol - You Can.
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Posted: 2/10/2006 7:22:04 PM EDT
[#41]
Considering the performance issues, it's no better than carrying a quality defensive pistol. But, I think the main point that many of the AR pistol supporters are missing is that this whole thread is based on the premise of bugging out when SHTF. If things are so bad that I'm walking away from danger, and I'm worried about being shot at. I don't think I'm going to give a second thought to tucking a rifle under my coat. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 7:33:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Amazing , over 14000 Posts and I still cant make any sense out of what you write 
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Posted: 2/11/2006 1:40:29 PM EDT
[#43]
I totally agree. But why not expand on that and add that it would be nothing to slide the collapsible stock back on over the end of the bare buffer tube? If we're not worrying about those silly laws anymore that is. I see that there are situations that warrant having a pistol, and others where the rifle is better. But why is there no middle ground for a rifle caliber pistol or at the least a pistol caliber AR (pistol or carbine) ? Most of the discussion falls into an either/or argument for what you personally prefer. I agree that the AR pistol isn't preferred for this, but what mods or setup would make it workable? Balance is about the only thing I can't see being bettered by changing some part of your setup like changing caliber, compensator, bbl length or optics could. I'm not trying to defend either choice, just want to know what could be done or would need to be done to take it from toy to tool status. Adult discussion appreciated. 
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:00:53 PM EDT
[#44]
The problem is that it's really too big for what it's capable of. Why bother with the excess size and weight when you can get the job done with a smaller package? Look at all of the folks making compromises to carry a smaller handgun concealed. This is the exact opposite end of the spectrum. Folks making compromises to carry an unneccessarily large handgun concealed. .223 from a short bbl offers no real advantage over a handgun chamber for an appropriate defensive cartridge. No one on the pistol side of this argument can point to any benefit beyond the large magazine capacity and perhaps the ability to penetrate body armor. The latter is of limited value considering the amount of armor the attacker would have to be wearing in order for it to make muc of a difference. The only way to come up with any more positives for the AR pistol would be to take it into carbine territory. And at that point, they'd have to concede defeat, as the opposition has largely taken that stance that a carbine is better suited to the described application than an AR Pistol.
It's been touched on throughout the thread.
Occasions where a pistol is better than a rifle are quite rare. What is more common is that pistols are the only option. I.E. CCW where it's legal to carry a pistol, but not a rifle. And of course, it's easier to carry a pistol than a rifle.
You'd basically end up turning it into a carbine. Which has been my argument all along. As has been said many times in the thread, an AR pistol is a poor replacement for an SBR. |
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Posted: 2/13/2006 7:33:46 PM EDT
[#45]
Thanks, being from Texas where everything is bigger and all... I guess I didn't think of that, although we all know it!
I think the best part of the AR platform is the modular nature of the upper/lower recievers in that you can have it any way you want. If 9mm is the best then you can have that, or if .50 Beowulf is the ticket for a PDW then you can do that too. Whatever you have the money for, you can build on one of those. There have got to be at least 10 different AR chamberings to choose from if you need more than the .223/5.56.
Ok, put that way I agree. I just think that is a positive point to the pistol, that you could put a buttstock on it if you papered it or blew off the law as society breaks down around you.
I would say some room clearing ops could be easier with a pistol, and agree that bigger (caliber and firepower) is always better. Which brings me to why I thought the pistol would be workable.-a pistol with rifle punch, but then you have the size argument to negate that so no point gained there for the pistol. [:(
thanks. |
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Posted: 2/13/2006 7:37:25 PM EDT
[#46]
Preach it brother. |
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Posted: 2/14/2006 5:01:09 AM EDT
[#47]
Boy, tough group!
Why all the hot temped displays? Take them for what they are. A fun to shoot, out of the ordinary, pistol. |
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Posted: 3/23/2006 5:00:12 PM EDT
[#48]
That's the truth!
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Posted: 3/23/2006 6:12:36 PM EDT
[#49]
AMEN AGAIN.
WHO CARES - It is a toy and fun to shoot.. If you don't like it - go back to the Bench and fire your shots with a 2 second pause between each shot of your long gun at the local gun range. WHO CAREs, MEN........
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Posted: 3/23/2006 8:03:35 PM EDT
[#50]
In a very close and unknown conditions quarters situation I can see how an AR15 pistol with a laser and either 30 round mags or even a 100 beta mag will be one of the ideal options. I don't know about other guys dissing the 7.5" barrel but with the iron sights that came with mine I can nail a 1" dot at 10 yards all day long.
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