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Link Posted: 2/17/2018 3:10:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/17/2018 3:11:18 PM EST by ban-hater]
OST.

Thanks for your work OP.
Link Posted: 2/24/2018 3:34:25 AM EST
Sorry to be a pest, but any luck with the reduced velocity M855A1 gel test?
Link Posted: 2/24/2018 12:57:48 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
Sorry to be a pest, but any luck with the reduced velocity M855A1 gel test?
View Quote
Yes. I did some more reduced velocity testing of M855A1, Mk318, M80A1, and Mk319. They'll be up over the next several weeks.
Link Posted: 2/25/2018 3:44:53 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:

Yes. I did some more reduced velocity testing of M855A1, Mk318, M80A1, and Mk319. They'll be up over the next several weeks.
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Awesome! Thank you
Link Posted: 3/11/2018 8:57:44 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
That's the one. You're right. Email me at [email protected]
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Finally got around to sending you the Nosler 110g Varmageddon. You should have got it Saturday.

I know your're busy and it will be awhile before you have the time to test, but can you shoot me an IM/email around the time you do test it so I'll know to look for it?

My time surfing the net on a daily basis isn't an option for me much anymore.
Link Posted: 3/12/2018 12:11:13 PM EST
I'll try to remember, but I suck at
Link Posted: 3/12/2018 4:00:48 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
I'll try to remember, but I suck at
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lol.

Yeah, I can relate.

I'm subscribed to the channel and tagged the little bell in the corner, so that should be good enough.
Link Posted: 3/12/2018 4:11:27 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
I'll try to remember, but I suck at
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I disagree.  You shot and tested the XM556SCBT3 (XM556FBIT3) ammo I sent you as one of the first tests this year.  Sooner than I thought you would, actually.
Link Posted: 3/17/2018 6:26:33 PM EST
Any chance youd test the 55 or 62 grain hollow and soft point russian steel cased ammo from sgammo?
Link Posted: 3/17/2018 11:12:25 PM EST
Sure.
Link Posted: 3/18/2018 8:17:17 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Sure.
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Cool. I shoot a ton of the 55g fmj and the soft or hollow points would be good for the occasional hog
Link Posted: 3/19/2018 11:17:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/19/2018 11:30:04 AM EST by JJREA]
@bluefalcon....

I have a suggestion for a test.  Now this may or may not have any interest by others, but it is something that has been talked about sometimes on here.  I'm curious if there is any difference in performance with M193 through a 1/12 and a 1/7.  We know that in Vietnam the performance of the round had a good reputation for doing nasty things.  And some will say a faster twist doesn't do anything to the performance.  But I do wonder if being more stable makes it yaw later, or just affect it in some way, to the negative.  Or positive.

Probably 20" barrels of 1/7 and 1/12 might be the best for the retro guys, but I would think you would get the idea even out of 14.5 / 16" barrels.  Or even shorter.  They would just be examples of a bullet shot at a distance out of a longer barrel.

But you'd have to have a 1/12 laying around somewhere to do it.

My Colt A2 20"er is sort of my "Oh my God the world has gone to crap" gun, in my mind.  And my stash is mostly M193.  So.....  I always wonder.  I need to go back and look at any of your 55 grain tests and see if you stated what twist your barrels were to begin with.

Have you ever done a test with a 1/12 or even 1/14?

Looks like that main SBR you have and I've seen you use quite a bit, it a 1/9......    Aaaaaand your 16"er too.  LOL (Wolf Gold test)  I actually like 1/9 but would love to see other twists and if they have any change.....  There probably are other tests out there that do that.

BTW, your tests and comments, I like them.  Great job.
Link Posted: 3/19/2018 6:22:56 PM EST
Thank you. Yeah, the tan colored A2 11.5" is 1:9". The black flat top 10.5" is 1:7". I don't have a 1:12".
Link Posted: 3/19/2018 10:03:23 PM EST
Would be cool if someone could loan you an XM-177 clone with a 1/12 and shoot that side by side with your 10.5 1/7, same 55 grain M193 in each and see if it makes a difference.  I would actually be more interested in 20"er though.....
Link Posted: 3/20/2018 2:03:59 PM EST
Please shoot that 110 vmax from a 16” barrel.
Link Posted: 3/20/2018 5:42:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/21/2018 5:58:21 PM EST by KTM300XCW]
Please test the 125 Gr. Speer TNT in 8" 300BLK with denim.

Very affordable bullet that I think will work well at 300 BLK velocities.
Link Posted: 3/21/2018 3:35:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JJREA:
@bluefalcon....

I have a suggestion for a test.  Now this may or may not have any interest by others, but it is something that has been talked about sometimes on here.  I'm curious if there is any difference in performance with M193 through a 1/12 and a 1/7.  We know that in Vietnam the performance of the round had a good reputation for doing nasty things.  And some will say a faster twist doesn't do anything to the performance.  But I do wonder if being more stable makes it yaw later, or just affect it in some way, to the negative.  Or positive.

Probably 20" barrels of 1/7 and 1/12 might be the best for the retro guys, but I would think you would get the idea even out of 14.5 / 16" barrels.  Or even shorter.  They would just be examples of a bullet shot at a distance out of a longer barrel.

But you'd have to have a 1/12 laying around somewhere to do it.

My Colt A2 20"er is sort of my "Oh my God the world has gone to crap" gun, in my mind.  And my stash is mostly M193.  So.....  I always wonder.  I need to go back and look at any of your 55 grain tests and see if you stated what twist your barrels were to begin with.

Have you ever done a test with a 1/12 or even 1/14?

Looks like that main SBR you have and I've seen you use quite a bit, it a 1/9......    Aaaaaand your 16"er too.  LOL (Wolf Gold test)  I actually like 1/9 but would love to see other twists and if they have any change.....  There probably are other tests out there that do that.

BTW, your tests and comments, I like them.  Great job.
View Quote
Its been tested and debunked:

From the Ammo Oracle:

History and Basic Design of .223 and 5.56 Ammunition.

Fact: Flesh is as much as 1000 times denser than air and will cause a bullet to lose stability almost instantly.  For M193 and M855 ammo, this typically occurs after 3-5 inches of flesh penetration, though this can vary.  In order to spin the bullet fast enough to be stable in flesh, the barrel twist would have to be on the order of 1 twist every 0.012 inches, which would look like the barrel had been threaded instead of rifled.

Q. Didn't tightening the twist rate from 1:14 to 1:12 reduce the wounding potential of M193?

No...

...though unfortunately this is widely believed.  When the M16 was first used in Vietnam, it was assumed that the smaller 5.56mm round would make much smaller wounds than the 7.62mm M80 round fired from the M14.  Everyone was surprised to learn that M16 wounds were often much more severe.  In order to explain this discrepancy, it was theorized that the slow 1:14 barrel twist made the bullet less stable in flesh and caused it to tumble, resulting in the large wounds.  In fact, the slow twist only made the bullet less stable in air.  Any pointed, lead core bullet has the center of gravity aft of the center of the projectile and will, after a certain distance of penetration, rotate (yaw) 180° and continue base-first.  This is where the appearance of "tumbling" came from.

The actual cause of the larger-than-expected wounds was not a result of this yawing of the bullet, but of the velocity of the bullet coupled with the bullet's construction.  M193 bullets have a groove or knurl around the middle, called a cannelure.  This allows the mouth of the case to be crimped on to the bullet, preventing the bullet from being pushed back into the case during handling and feeding.  The cannelure also weakens the integrity of the bullet jacket.

When the bullet struck flesh at a high-enough velocity, the bullet's thin jacket, weakened by the cannelure, could not survive the pressure of moving sideways through the dense flesh.  Instead, the bullet would only rotate about 90°, at which point the stresses were too much for the bullet jacket and the bullet would fragment.  The results were a wound that was far out of proportion to the size of the bullet.  Yet, the twist rate of the barrel and therefore the rotation speed of the bullet, is not a factor in the fragmenting equation.

M855 ammo works exactly the same way, though due to its heavier bullet, it has less muzzle velocity.  Less muzzle velocity translates to a shorter range in which the bullet retains enough velocity to fragment, compared to M193.

Fact: Flesh is as much as 1000 times denser than air and will cause a bullet to lose stability almost instantly.  For M193 and M855 ammo, this typically occurs after 3-5 inches of flesh penetration, though this can vary.  In order to spin the bullet fast enough to be stable in flesh, the barrel twist would have to be on the order of 1 twist every 0.012 inches, which would look like the barrel had been threaded instead of rifled.

Q. If I increase spin or barrel twist, won't that decrease wounding by making a round more stable in tissue?

No.

The importance of rate of twist in wounding is a frequent subject of what we politely call "ballistic myth." Any projectile that has a "center of pressure" forward of the center of gravity will tend to tumble. You can illustrate this to yourself by trying to balance a pencil on your fingertip. Spin, given to the projectile by barrel twist, puts a projectile into a state described as "gyroscopically stable." The projectile might be momentarily disturbed but will return to nose-forward flight quickly. To describe how stable a given projectile is we use the gyroscopic stability factor (Sg). Generally you want a factor of 1.3 or greater for rifle rounds. 1.5-2.0 is a generally accepted value for 5.56 rounds.

For M193 the following variables apply:

axial moment of inertia (A) = 11.82 gm/mm2
transverse moment of inertia (B) = 77.45 gm/mm2
mass (m) = 3.53 grams
reference diameter (d) = 5.69 mm

Using the gyroscopic stability formula: Sg = A2 p2 / (4 B Ma) and assuming sea level we use an air density of 1.2250 kg/m^3 and discover that this this projectile will need on the order of 236,000 rpm for good stability (Sg > 1.3).

At 3200 fps M193 is typically spun up to more like 256,000 (1:9" twist) to 330,000 rpm (1:7") so that Sg approaches 1.9 or 2.0. 1:12" rifles will spin rounds at around 192,000 rpm and 1:14" rifles around 165,000 rpm. You can see why 1:14" rifles might have had trouble stabilizing M193 rounds.

Clever math types will see that density of the medium traversed (air in this case) has a dramatic effect on the spin required to maintain the Sg (density being in the first term's divisor). This is why cold conditions tend to dip "barely stable" rounds below the stability threshold. Without doing too much calculus it will be seen that an increase of three orders of magnitude (1000) in this variable will be a dramatic one for spin requirements. To balance things spin must be increased to compensate.

Through human flesh (which varies from 980 - 1100 kg/m^3 or about 1000 times the density of air) something on the order of 95,000,000 - 100,000,000 rpm is required to stabilize a projectile at speed. Given these differences it will be seen that the difference between a 1:12 or 1:14" twist when it hits flesh and a projectile launched from a 1:9 or 1:7" weapon is so small as to be beyond measuring. But the game isn't over yet.

Gyroscopic stability of 2.0 or so is sufficient for a M193 projectile to recover from an upset quickly, return to nose-forward flight and not be over stabilized. To prevent the upset in the first place, particularly when a sudden and very extreme change in density (and therefore drag and pressure applied to the center of pressure) requires FAR more stability. To grant enough stability force to prevent the upset of a M193 projectile encountering a sudden 1000 fold increase in density a factor of as much as 10 to 50 times (speaking VERY conservatively) the required gyroscopic stability for a steady state flight through a medium of that density would be required. In other words, unless the projectile is spinning at nearly a BILLION rpm it is going to be upset by such a transition. Even at this rpm it is like to be upset somewhat.

In summary, and to take the most extreme case, a M193 projectile spinning at 350,000 rpm (from a 1:7" rifle) is going to upset in flesh (yaw) exactly as fast as one spinning at 150,000 rpm (from a 1:14" rifle). Claiming that twist rate has any impact on the speed of yaw and therefore terminal performance is just not in line with the laws of physics. Anyone making such a claim should either be carefully avoided or introduced gently to basic gyroscopic stability concepts. Often a calming substance like warm milk or Thorazine helps in the transition of such a subject.
Link Posted: 3/22/2018 11:02:24 AM EST
could you test 125gr Fiocchi SST 300blackout? or hornady custom 135gr FTX 300 blackout?
Link Posted: 4/5/2018 6:05:09 PM EST
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Originally Posted By IHTFP08:
Any chance youd test the 55 or 62 grain hollow and soft point russian steel cased ammo from sgammo?
View Quote
The 62gr soft point would be nice to see...
Link Posted: 4/5/2018 9:08:53 PM EST
I've wanted to do that for some time now. Anyone wanna donate a box?
Link Posted: 4/6/2018 5:15:40 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
I've wanted to do that for some time now. Anyone wanna donate a box?
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Sure, PM me where to send it.
Link Posted: 4/7/2018 8:05:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/7/2018 8:07:01 PM EST by RLunyATL]
Hornady Black SBR 75gr InterLock, 10.5-11.5" barrel.
Link Posted: 4/9/2018 11:24:53 AM EST
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Originally Posted By willsyb:

Sure, PM me where to send it.
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Sent. Thank you.
Link Posted: 4/29/2018 11:42:37 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ohio:
Armscor has a bonded 62 grain SP that sells for under $8 a box. Could be the budget load we have been looking for.
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bluefalcon, any idea when you might get around to trying the box I sent??
Link Posted: 4/30/2018 8:48:02 AM EST
Already shot. I'll try to get it up soon.
Link Posted: 4/30/2018 11:37:42 AM EST
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Already shot. I'll try to get it up soon.
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Excellent. Thanks!
Link Posted: 5/10/2018 5:50:09 PM EST
@bluefalcon

I think it would be epic if you could do a video series on the new Hornady Frontier line 5.56 offerings.  I've seen 62gr BTHP, 62gr SP, 68gr BTHP and 75gr BTHP T2.

Pretty please!  I'll Paypal you some $ to help on the ammo.
Link Posted: 5/10/2018 10:16:34 PM EST
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Originally Posted By AS556:
@bluefalcon

I think it would be epic if you could do a video series on the new Hornady Frontier line 5.56 offerings.  I've seen 62gr BTHP, 62gr SP, 68gr BTHP and 75gr BTHP T2.

Pretty please!  I'll Paypal you some $ to help on the ammo.
View Quote
The Hornady 62 grain BTHP would be great. A lot of us have bought that bullet to reload; now that it is also in factory loads it ought to be easier.
Link Posted: 5/11/2018 11:19:56 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ohio:

The Hornady 62 grain BTHP would be great. A lot of us have bought that bullet to reload; now that it is also in factory loads it ought to be easier.
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Definitely.  I've got about 1k loaded up of the 62 in a can.  Mine are hitting about 2800
Link Posted: 5/11/2018 11:31:46 AM EST
Ok. I'll add them to the list.
Link Posted: 5/15/2018 8:32:28 PM EST
With all the sbr and pistol builds in consideration, I would like the omnibus short barrel defense round shoot off.  
I am talking all the TSX, gold dot, hornady sbr, mk262, etc put to the test in bare gel and through light to medium barrier.
Link Posted: 5/21/2018 11:06:32 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AS556:
Definitely.  I've got about 1k loaded up of the 62 in a can.  Mine are hitting about 2800
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AS556:
Originally Posted By Ohio:

The Hornady 62 grain BTHP would be great. A lot of us have bought that bullet to reload; now that it is also in factory loads it ought to be easier.
Definitely.  I've got about 1k loaded up of the 62 in a can.  Mine are hitting about 2800
@bluefalcon Has anyone procured these for you yet?
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 7:38:54 PM EST
I don't think so.
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 8:05:56 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
I don't think so.
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I have two boxes coming to you from sgammo. They are on vacation until the 3rd, so it'll be a few days.
The second box is a bribe to get it on youtube faster...

Link Posted: 5/27/2018 7:44:52 PM EST
if you have any 6.5 creedmoor rifles id love to see what this stuff can do

SIG Elite 6.5 Creedmoor
Link Posted: 6/3/2018 11:23:27 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ohio:

I have two boxes coming to you from sgammo. They are on vacation until the 3rd, so it'll be a few days.
The second box is a bribe to get it on youtube faster...

View Quote
Lol. Thank you. I do have a lot of stuff in front of it in the queue, but I'll do it as fast as I can.
Link Posted: 6/3/2018 3:24:29 PM EST
Has anyone ever done a gel test of the 40gr American Eagle 5.7 load?

I'd be interested to see if it performs like a "lighter, less powerful M193" load of just zips right through stuff without tumbling
Link Posted: 7/8/2018 8:31:37 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Mrgunsngear:
Has anyone ever done a gel test of the 40gr American Eagle 5.7 load?

I'd be interested to see if it performs like a "lighter, less powerful M193" load of just zips right through stuff without tumbling
View Quote
Not that I've seen. Could be interesting though.

@bluefalcon any ETA on the Frontier tests?

The 68gr 5.56 would be great too. Not much gel data on that bullet.
Link Posted: 7/10/2018 8:07:00 AM EST
It rained real good yesterday. I hope to get out and test some more in a week or two.
Link Posted: 7/10/2018 8:28:53 AM EST
Any updates on 9, .40, .45 and you could toss in 10mm, with Gold Dot or HST, or both, all from a 5" barrel? Of course you could do 4", but it needs to be the same barrel length whatever you do.

Use heavier weight for caliber for each since those are normally the recommended loads and perform better.

For 5", just a 1911 GI gun, you can use a Beretta M9 or one of the commercial variants for 9 and .40, since they're everywhere.

You can test a 4" barrel in all of them to compare to the 5". Might be interesting as to what the lower velocity does to each caliber.
Link Posted: 7/16/2018 11:36:38 PM EST
70gr GMX would be nice to add to the lineup.
Link Posted: 8/12/2018 11:46:58 AM EST
Any ETA for a test of the factory Nosler 300blk 110g Varmageddons I sent you in January/February?
Link Posted: 8/12/2018 1:20:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/12/2018 1:21:34 PM EST by pavlovwolf]
Any updates on a comparison test between 9mm / 40, and .45acp, same bullet brand, heavy for weight, same length barrels ( 5inch vs 5 inch, 4" vs 4" etc ), same day etc, as equal as possible?
Link Posted: 8/12/2018 6:57:21 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By swampvol:
Any ETA for a test of the factory Nosler 300blk 110g Varmageddons I sent you in January/February?
View Quote
Nevermind.

Andrew just PM'd me that he already did the test.

Would You Trust This Varmint Ammo For Defense? Nosler .300 AAC 110gr Varmaggedon Gel Test
Link Posted: 8/18/2018 11:37:24 PM EST
can we get some 6.5 grendel testing goin?

would love to see some sbr results in gel.
Link Posted: 8/19/2018 3:13:10 AM EST
Any plans for Hornady's new .223 73gr Critical Defense?
Link Posted: 8/19/2018 9:19:32 AM EST
Anyone want to send me a box?
Link Posted: 8/19/2018 2:59:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2018 3:04:10 PM EST by Lightstriker]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Anyone want to send me a box?
View Quote
I'll volunteer to buy and box (of the 73gr Critical Defense) and have it shipped to you. My only request is that it get shot out of at least 10.5" and 16"  barrels, if that's cool.

ETA: Would one box be enough or would two be better?
Link Posted: 8/20/2018 2:40:54 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lightstriker:

I'll volunteer to buy and box (of the 73gr Critical Defense) and have it shipped to you. My only request is that it get shot out of at least 10.5" and 16"  barrels, if that's cool.

ETA: Would one box be enough or would two be better?
View Quote
I can't guarantee both. Email me if you'd still like me to do it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2018 11:08:25 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
I can't guarantee both. Email me if you'd still like me to do it.
View Quote
Box ordered and en route.
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