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Posted: 9/11/2004 6:39:26 AM EST
I find that an A1 fixed buttstock on my carbine length rifles is really not at all that much longer than my M4 stocks retracted. I find the A1 MUCH sturdier, and I've never had any reliability problems with the fixed stock like I have had with some collapsible stocks with certain short barrels. I mean, the thing slides, which is cool, but what other benefits are there to a collapsible if you aren't wearing body armor?
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 7:36:07 AM EST
I think a lot depends on your use. I am a high drag very low speed operator and prefer the A1 stock to the collapsible one. Just putting the finishing touches on a 16" midlength A1 upper and will be putting an A1 stock on the lower. Some just want the collapsible stock "just because" and more power to them and some have a genuine use for one. What ever suits you, we are all different.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:35:08 PM EST
You could always kill two birds with one stone and get one of WA TOM's XM607 buttstocks. Looks like a shorty buttstock, however retracts to the length of a full size buttstock. Extremely sturdy, no woble. Locks up tight!

Sammy

home.comcast.net/~luthier4/




Originally Posted By airbiscuit:
I find that an A1 fixed buttstock on my carbine length rifles is really not at all that much longer than my M4 stocks retracted. I find the A1 MUCH sturdier, and I've never had any reliability problems with the fixed stock like I have had with some collapsible stocks with certain short barrels. I mean, the thing slides, which is cool, but what other benefits are there to a collapsible if you aren't wearing body armor?

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:40:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 4:14:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By airbiscuit:
I find that an A1 fixed buttstock on my carbine length rifles is really not at all that much longer than my M4 stocks retracted.



3.45" shorter ISNT noticable to you??




That's exactly what I was thinking.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 5:36:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 7:55:10 AM EST
Thanks Chuck. That is what I'm seeing. And no, the trimming of 2 inches in the stock does not make up for strength, simplicity, increased reliability of the full length full size buffer, AND butt-trap within which I store batteries, cleaning gear, lens cloth, small parts, etc. (in addition to the Tango Down grip, which stores the batteries). I may be too old fashioned or a simpleton, but I've always been a fan of as few moving parts and assemblies as possible, when possible. Put your A1 stocked carbine up next to your M4 collapsible in the same flavor and it will get you thinking. My SPR clone will be A1 stocked.


Originally Posted By Chuck:
M4 stock has a 3-1/4 range of motion and when fully extended is the same length as the M16A2 stock. Math says that the M4 stock closed will then be 2-5/8" shorter than a pre-M16A2 fixed stock.

An aftermarket M4 stock, with a longer lower receiver extension or not screwed in as far as a real one can be even longer and can cut that difference closer to 2".

-- Chuck


Link Posted: 9/12/2004 10:03:32 AM EST
Plant your cheek on a LMT/Crane or Vltor Buttstock and you will quickly realize the benefits.

Those two verities of collapsible stocks offer a much superior cheek weld compared to the A1 or A2 Buttstocks and you will still retain your storage capability!
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 10:08:02 AM EST
You are probably right as I have not done that comparison. I'm not in any way knocking a collapsible, as I have more of them on my rifles than fixed stocks. However, my A1 lower tends to support more of my uppers when I go to the range, etc., than anything else. In a self defense situation, or in the sandbox, with what I have now I'd go with the A1. I have plans to try the LMT/Crane. I guess those have the benefit too of functioning somewhat like an adjustable buttpad, but without the fine adjustments. For me, I find the A1 perfect, but that may not be for everyone.


Originally Posted By AKM:
Plant your cheek on a LMT/Crane or Vltor Buttstock and you will quickly realize the benefits.

Those two verities of collapsible stocks offer a much superior cheek weld compared to the A1 or A2 Buttstocks and you will still retain your storage capability!

Link Posted: 9/12/2004 1:27:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2004 1:30:53 PM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 1:43:04 PM EST
Well Lumpy, I think the whole deal is I am a paper puncher, I don't wear body armor, and don't fire from vehicles. I'm thinking out loud more for an SPR type. I have a GG&G side sling swivel arrangement on my A1, which lengthens it a bit, probably almost to A2. I've had reliability issues with certain 14.5" uppers and certain types of ammunition, but none with the A1.


Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
M16A1 stock LOP: 13.32"
M16A2 stock LOP: 14.00"
M4 stock (closed): 9.87"
M4 stock (open): 13.12"

CQB shooting stances normally place you squared to the target. Shorter LOP stocks come into their own in this environment. We're not talking about old school square range target techniques here.

Be all end all, if you dont find any particular use for collapsible stocks, then stick with your A1s. Theres nothing wrong with that.

Link Posted: 9/12/2004 1:44:11 PM EST
The ACE SOCOM stock is ROCK SOLID. Fully extended LOP is similar to A1 as far as I can see. Doesn't colapse as short as the M4 though, but is surely short enough even with body armor. I like mine.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 1:50:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 2:16:23 PM EST
Not really at all Lumpy. Every SPR clone I see has an LMT/Crane stock or some other collapsible. I am wondering why for your reason. I can see it I guess if it is a cheek weld thing as I don't have a Crane stock. I've found my cheekweld fine with the standard stock. I'm putting together an SPR clone which is why I ask.


Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By airbiscuit:
I'm thinking out loud more for an SPR type.



Well thats completely different from your 1st post where you meantioned your carbine.

Id prefer a fixed stock on a precision gun.

Link Posted: 9/12/2004 2:49:42 PM EST

, but what other benefits are there to a collapsible

More guns in one case when going to the range.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 5:34:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 4:40:59 PM EST by knightone]
Remember, the VLTOR also comes in a fixed version in both A1 and A2 lengths.

They also fit on carbine extension tubes. That way, you can switch betwen the A1 and a collapsible at your leisure.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 2:58:30 PM EST
I wear body armor every day. My patrol rifle has an A1 stock. I havnt had any difficulty getting it out of my squad. I put a Cav Arm A1 on my personal AR and have no plans to switch it now that the ban is gone. If you like collapsable stocks, have at it.

Granted my armor is the soft variety. If I were crawling around caves and wearing the ceramic plates, I might reconsider.

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 4:45:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By knightone:
Remember, the VLTOR also comes in a fixed version in both A1 and A2 lengths.



And the A-1 on a carbine tube yeilds A-2 / A-2+1" . Nice feature for me, thanks Valtor.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 4:47:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By ALAN308:

Originally Posted By knightone:
Remember, the VLTOR also comes in a fixed version in both A1 and A2 lengths.



And the A-1 on a carbine tube yeilds A-2 / A-2+1" . Nice feature for me, thanks Valtor.



Damn, I forgot the carbine extension adaptor causes the A1 to become longer.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 4:49:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 4:50:55 PM EST by ALAN308]

Originally Posted By knightone:
Remember, the VLTOR also comes in a fixed version in both A1 and A2 lengths.



And the A-1[Valtor] on a carbine tube yeilds A-2 / A-2+1" . Nice feature for me.

A-1 [m-16] stock is an awsome and overlooked option. Interchanges with ease also. Nose tch is nostral tch for me though. My carbine has an M-4. Rattles a bit but no more than the handgards though. It has its place.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 8:17:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
M16A1 stock LOP: 13.32"
M16A2 stock LOP: 14.00"
M4 stock (closed): 9.87"
M4 stock (open): 13.12"




My RRA 6-Pos stock has the same LOP as an A2 stock. I prefer the A1, or the 6-Pos closed three notches.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 8:19:39 PM EST
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