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1/27/2021 12:46:26 AM
Posted: 3/14/2005 7:20:46 AM EST
Morning folks,

My 16 year old son and I finally got to take out our new/old AR to the range. This is our first AR (not the last, I'm afraid) and the first time we shot it. We are both average rifle shots with bolt action rifles. Our AR is a circa 1990 Oly upper/lower with a 20" HBAR Bushmaster barrel and we were using Winchester white box ammo. We shot 200 rounds total at 25 yards, 50 yards and 100 yards. I've seen posts with people shooting MOA at 100 yards and all I can say is I'm impressed. The groups averaged about 2" at 25 yards - all in the 10 ring and 4" at 50 yards, also around the center of the target. However, the best we could do with A1 sights and a 20 round mag was a consistent 6" spread at 100 yards. The kid did better at 25 and 50 yards but the old man was better at 100. I'm assuming with more practice and familiarity with the rifle and sights that we could do better, but MOA at 100 yards? How do people achieve that kind of accuracy? The front sight on our A1 covers a 12" target at 100 yards. Any advice would be appreciated.

John
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 7:33:03 AM EST
You need to remember a couple things.  Many of the people who post here are flat out liars.  They lie about what they own, they lie about their training, and most of all, they lie about what size groups they shoot.

Secondly, the majority of people here who are honest and talk about shooting MOA, are all using scopes.  The amount of people who shoot 1" groups at 100 yards with a stock weapon aren't worth talking about.  It can be done, but usually by olympic quality shooters (if they are getting an honest 1" at 100 yards on a regular basis).

I think your shooting is fine, and it will get better as you get more familiar with the weapon.  With more trigger time, your 5 round groups will continue to shrink.  Try to also remember that you have a combat weapon variant, not a tack driver.  You can always build an accurate AR later on if that is what you are looking for.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 7:38:44 AM EST
The only battle rifle I have ever been able to get close to an inch with open sights was a M1A1 that I had with National match sights.  Don't always believe what you hear at this site. If you want better accuracy use a scope of some kind.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 7:40:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 12:27:01 PM EST
Sounds fine to me.

The last range trip I took my newly built A1 clone (RRA lower, FNMI 1:12 bbl, MM A1 upper) and 4 20 rd magazines of 55gr American Eagle, and set my target at 100 yards.  Rifle was fired off a sandbag rest from the bench.  First three shots were easily in a 3 inch circle.  Next three shots were in a 1.5" circle.  However, that second group was all luck, where the wind, shooter, no caffeine and all that zen crap comes together and does something cool.  

This AR likes 55gr more than any other rifle twist I've shot does.  Finding the right bullet for that rifle will help shrink your groups.  I have a Cav Arms 1:9 16" midlength that LOVES WWB 62gr FMJ.  With ammo, hopefully your rifle likes the least expensive...so you can practice and practice and practice.

I will say, that I am happy if I can keep 80 rounds or less within the confines of a 6" circle at 100 yards with an iron-sighted AR, off sandbags.  That means, barring environmental factors, you'll easily hit a man sized target (18" wide) at 300 yards.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 12:43:12 PM EST
The last six 10 shot groups I have shot with various open sighted 20 inch ar-15s ranged in size from 2.20 inches to 4.90 inches with either q3131-a, or fed. 866xm-193.  The 2.20-inch group is an unusually small group for me.

Your 12-inch target would be way too big for me to keep the group size as small as I am doing now.

I have found that a white bullseye approximately 13 centimeters in diameter on a black background provides the best sight picture for me.

More practice with the open sights will bring down the group sizes.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 12:54:33 PM EST
Bullet weight is VERY important, try different grain bullets. That said, I've shot 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards with wolf ammo thru a 11" barrel, with irons. Scouts honor!
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 1:04:59 PM EST
I think you're doing just fine, though I suspect you can do better than 6".  Maybe the light conditions weren't optimal, or maybe you need to experiment with target background, as others have suggested.  

At age 50 I can probably average 4 to 5 inch groups at 100 yds with M-193 or equivalent and irons through an A1 upper.  Optics will take this down to almost 2.5 inches, but to do better I'd need target grade bullets and barrels.

I do not believe that M-193 can average 1 moa through any barrel ever made using a machine rest.

Sam
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 1:40:42 PM EST
When people post group size, do they generally mean fired from a rest, or while standing?
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 1:51:39 PM EST

Quoted:
When people post group size, do they generally mean fired from a rest, or while standing?



Technically they should say if the rifle was rested or not, I know most magazine writers declare this.

Another thing to keep in mind is that some peaple measure groups from the farthest edge of the holes on the target and others will measure groups from the center of the holes on the target, this could reduce the group size by a half inch or so.

i usually get 2 1/4 inch groups at 50 yards in a prone position.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 7:27:15 AM EST
My son and I were resting an elbow on the bench and sitting on a stool.  We would have tried to rest the rifle on a block but the mags were too long.  

I really appreciate the replies!  We're going to go back out again next weekend for more practice.

It's funny but we had the most stock AR at the range - there were probably a dozen more, all tricked out with optics, lights, etc., but I think we had just as much fun as anybody else.

John
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 7:51:31 AM EST

Quoted:
My son and I were resting an elbow on the bench and sitting on a stool.  We would have tried to rest the rifle on a block but the mags were too long.



Oh my!  Get yourself some 20 round mags NOW!    Can't have an A1 with only 30rd mags!


I really appreciate the replies!  We're going to go back out again next weekend for more practice.

It's funny but we had the most stock AR at the range - there were probably a dozen more, all tricked out with optics, lights, etc., but I think we had just as much fun as anybody else.

John



I find myself doing the same thing.  I like irons and shooting a stock rifle, it's more of a challenge.  
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 7:52:34 AM EST
Fresh first quality M193 is 2MOA ammo.  A stock AR is probably about a 2MOA rifle.  If you get 4 inches at 100 yds, you are doing great.

For true group size, shoot 20 rounds and measure the group.

I have seen and fired sub MOA rifles, but they were nothing near as issued weapons.

These guys saying they are shooting 1 MOA with a rifle similar to yours are shooting many 3 shot groups and reporting on the lucky one.

The beauty of the AR is you can shoot it all day and the group will not open up, unless the shooter starts getting sloppy.

BTW, I routinely get sub 1/4 MOA out of my rirle just like yours.....................
.........
.......1 shot "groups".
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 8:20:51 AM EST
You need to remember a couple things. Many of the people who post here are flat out liars. They lie about what they own, they lie about their training, and most of all, they lie about what size groups they shoot.

Secondly, the majority of people here who are honest and talk about shooting MOA, are all using scopes. The amount of people who shoot 1" groups at 100 yards with a stock weapon aren't worth talking about. It can be done, but usually by olympic quality shooters (if they are getting an honest 1" at 100 yards on a regular basis).

I think your shooting is fine, and it will get better as you get more familiar with the weapon. With more trigger time, your 5 round groups will continue to shrink. Try to also remember that you have a combat weapon variant, not a tack driver. You can always build an accurate AR later on if that is what you are looking for.


Stickman speaketh the truth!  
Practice, practice, practice.  The A1's are capable of better accuracy than most shooters.  Shooting is like golf and pool.  The more you practice, the better you get.    
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 9:09:22 AM EST

Quoted:
The front sight on our A1 covers a 12" target at 100 yards. Any advice would be appreciated.

John



John, what do you mean by covering a 12" target? Are you using a 6 o'clock hold for your sighting picture? If not maybe you should try it. Get the top of the front sight post in the center of your field of view, then line it up so the black of your target looks like it is sitting on top of your front sight post like a ball on a table.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 3:11:41 PM EST
Stickman,
The same people also lie about their sex life, how much money they make and their gas mileage.
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