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Posted: 9/18/2004 5:04:26 PM EST
What is the most common purpose for 9mm carbines?

Who uses them? Law enforcement, military, both?

Are they better for home defense because of the round?

Are they much cheaper to shoot if you like to spend a lot of time at the range?

What is effective range?

Is anyone going to sell a new 30 -32 round mag for them? Out of curiousity, I've been looking for new 9mm mags, and haven't really found any at a decent price.

Any other comments you can offer?

Thanks,
E (Qiii)
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 5:13:13 PM EST
The DEA used to use the 9mm Colt, Atlanta PD SWAT did too. It's my undertanding that 9mm will penetrate walls( dry wall etc) better than 5.56/223 so i dont now if it is a better round for defense but I am no expert. You can get 100 rounds or winchester 9mm whitebox for 9 dollars at wally world. Unsure about mags maybe modified uzi mags are going to be more available.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 5:18:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2004 5:21:24 PM EST by ipschoser1]
9MM carbines are best as/with: Submachineguns and/or suppressors. Since we mere civilians (ie taxpayers) can't have those without much redtape, the only other advantages I can see are less noise and cheap ammo.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 5:20:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2004 5:21:51 PM EST by Qiii]
why do law enforcement use 9mm? is it because they might be shooting in an urban enviornment? why kind of bullets do law enforcement use? do they use FMJ? or can they use whatever they want?

edit: submachineguns...i can see the point when it was thompsons vs bars, but with smaller rounds, do submachineguns (pistol rounds right?) serve a purpose?

E (Qiii)
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 5:23:19 PM EST
Kel Tec makes some pretty sweet guns in 9mm and 40 that can take glock & I think S&W mags they also fold up into a very small package. One of the big advantages for those is their ability to use glock and S&W mags so if you are a glock shooter and already have the mags I would pick one up. They are also very small, light weight and have very little recoil.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 6:09:31 PM EST
Big point has been missed here:

Lower noise and flash signature is the main....and this is biggest when INSIDE a room. Try shooting your Colt M4 inside in the dark at an indoor range....and compare it to a Colt 9mm....you will see what I mean.

For entry teams, communications are key. I prefer a Colt 9mm CAR-15 for my home defense for this reason. It is not as disorienteering as the .223 going off.

B Wood
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 8:19:45 PM EST
My older brother is with S.W.A.T. His explaination is this:

His Dept. has Surpressed AR15 in .223 and surpressed HK MP5's in 9MM. He says the dept. decided to go with the HK's in 9MM though some agencies do use AR15's chambered in 9MM. To my surprise, he told me that the AR's are primary indoor ordinance ad the HK's for outdoor use.

The .223 bullet has a tendancy to shatter on impact, therefore in theory making them safer to use indoors. The guns are surpressed to try to eliminated flash 1st, noise level 2nd. With the supressors installed both guns have a minimal amount of flash. The 9MM Hollow Points go through the windsheilds of cars better, and with more reliablility compared to the .223 that's why they are used more for outdoor scenerio's.

Crystal Methamphedamine is a HUGE problem here, so the S.W.A.T. teams find themselves taking part in a lot of Meth Lab raids. The fumes in those labs are explosive if concentrated, which is why the S.W.A.T. are so concerned with muzzle flash.

It's my opinion that a good old fashioned Remington 870 .12 gauage is a FAR better home defense weapon. Just load it with some Dove & Quail rounds and your pretty safe from over penetrating accidents. hope this helped.

E
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 9:20:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By Atreides:
My older brother is with S.W.A.T. His explaination is this:

His Dept. has Surpressed AR15 in .223 and surpressed HK MP5's in 9MM. He says the dept. decided to go with the HK's in 9MM though some agencies do use AR15's chambered in 9MM. To my surprise, he told me that the AR's are primary indoor ordinance ad the HK's for outdoor use.

The .223 bullet has a tendancy to shatter on impact, therefore in theory making them safer to use indoors. The guns are surpressed to try to eliminated flash 1st, noise level 2nd. With the supressors installed both guns have a minimal amount of flash. The 9MM Hollow Points go through the windsheilds of cars better, and with more reliablility compared to the .223 that's why they are used more for outdoor scenerio's.

Crystal Methamphedamine is a HUGE problem here, so the S.W.A.T. teams find themselves taking part in a lot of Meth Lab raids. The fumes in those labs are explosive if concentrated, which is why the S.W.A.T. are so concerned with muzzle flash.

It's my opinion that a good old fashioned Remington 870 .12 gauage is a FAR better home defense weapon. Just load it with some Dove & Quail rounds and your pretty safe from over penetrating accidents. hope this helped.

E



Unfortunately dove and quail rounds won't even come near the minimum penetration required to reach vitals and neutralize a target quickly. If you're going to use a shotgun for home defense then for the love of Pete use the appropriate load.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 9:35:29 PM EST
mostly LEOs use 9mm ARs
military uses other brands (HK) for pistol caliber SMGs
better for home def? depends; outside or inside--best of both worlds, i'll stick w/ the 5.56
cheaper?not really
effecftive range? pistol cartrige: 150 yrs max; 5.56: 700+ yrd
dont know much about the mags

like pistol carbines if they are small in size(10 in bbl max(SBR)), lightweight, or suppressed
if not, i'll stick w/ 5.56
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 4:17:27 PM EST
Thanks for the advice buckshot, but everyone has their own preference to what they load in their "home guns".

The Dove and Quail (though no where near as lethal as other rounds) can do a good job at in home distances. My goal is to be able to defend myself & my family, not the execute intruders. It is a personal choice. I used to load my 870 with staggered rounds, (D&Q, a little havier load, and finally a 00buck round) but have since changed.

My home has never been invaded, thank GOD, but I do feel as though I am adequaetly protected with what I have. Sure, I could keep one of my pistols next to the bed, or my AR, or any of my other guns, but I choose my Remington 870 with Dove & Quail shells loaded.

Alpha Ghost,

I agree, I thought the AR15 to be a better "all around" weapon for police work, but, as I have said, my brothers unit is armed with both AR's and HK's and the 9MM's used primarily for outdoor use. That surprised me as I said, thinking that the AR's are far superior to the HK's at long distances. It was explained to me that (for their purposes) the HK's are alot more accurate, especially on full auto, and the ranges they expect to work at is not the same as might be expected of a military group. The snipers take care of anything out of the range of the others.

Over penetration was the reason given to me for not using the HK's as much indoors.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 11:04:34 AM EST
In my hometown the only indoor range does not allow bottleneck rounds. So I could shoot the 9mm there.

I like to shoot metal plates with cheap bullets on the family farm. Cheap pistol rounds safe on plates, cheap 223 not safe.

Also I reload with frangable bullets, even safer for metal plates. It is much easier to reload pistol rounds since you can use carbide dies and dont need to lubercate.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 11:25:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 12:00:22 PM EST
Blazer at Academy Sports run $3.86 for a box of 50, or $7.72 for a hundred rounds.
Best price for 5.56 has been $2.39 for Wolf, or $11.95 per hundred. Save about 1/3. Also, recoil in less for those new or small shooter.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 12:01:31 PM EST
My 9mm Colt 6450 came in today :) Got to go try her out this evening.



I mainly bought the rifle for a couple of reasons.

(1) cheap, QUALITY ammo
(2) Colt + LEO only markings in a rare gun = neato
(3) In-door range use
(4) easier on the ears when plinking/hunting outdoors (rabbit, squirrel, etc....)
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 12:09:26 PM EST
I would think logisicaly if your sidearm and longarm use the same caliber thats a plus.Cheap ammo and ease of use,personaly Id rather be clearing rooms with a 12 gauge and a .45.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 12:45:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By Atreides:
Thanks for the advice buckshot, but everyone has their own preference to what they load in their "home guns".

The Dove and Quail (though no where near as lethal as other rounds) can do a good job at in home distances. My goal is to be able to defend myself & my family, not the execute intruders. It is a personal choice. I used to load my 870 with staggered rounds, (D&Q, a little havier load, and finally a 00buck round) but have since changed.

My home has never been invaded, thank GOD, but I do feel as though I am adequaetly protected with what I have. Sure, I could keep one of my pistols next to the bed, or my AR, or any of my other guns, but I choose my Remington 870 with Dove & Quail shells loaded.



I understand your point but my reasons for home defense are the same as yours. I never ever said anything about executing intruders. I said I wanted to have a round that is capable of stopping them from doing any harm to my family or myself. The last thing in the world I want to do is kill another human being even if it's justified. I pray to God I will never have to make the choice to shoot an intruder but if I do I feel confident that my selected load will be able to penetrate deep enough to shut the intruder down before he can cause any harm to innocent life. Like I said earlier dove and quail loads will not meet penetration requirements for stopping a human attacker. It's a simple fact. It's not about killing it's about stopping. Unfortunately sometimes the side effect of using a firearm to stop an intruder is death.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 1:02:07 PM EST
I want a 9mm AR in a 7.5" SBR with a suppressor. With subsonic 147 grain Black Talons, it should be very quiet.

I am really looking forward to the new OlyArms carbine that uses GLOCK mags.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 6:02:40 PM EST
My opinion is that the 9mm isn't too useful unless it is on a SBR. On a full size rifle, I'd rather go 223.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 6:29:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 6:44:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2004 6:55:12 PM EST by AMOS]
Most Police Departments (in my area) are going away from the 9mm carbines and smgs. DEA and the TBI are going to the M4 in semi auto. As posted earlier, it seems with the right 5.56 round, the M4 will penetrate less than the 9mm hp round . I think the DOJ did a test and came up with the above listed results. It seems that the new trend is going back to the 5.56 round. I maybe wrong, it has to do with a hollow point round travelling over 2400 fps that will expand completely as it goes through sheet rock expending most of the rounds energy and thus not going through the outer shell of the house. Because of the muzzle velocity, No matter wether you use a fmj or hp, most 9mm rounds will not expand that much through sheet rock, thus they have more energy left and will penetrate the outer skin of the house. That was how it was explained to me. Of course if you use a FMJ 5.56 round, it will defintely penetrate the complete wall of a wood frame house. All of our SWAT entry teams use ear protection as they use flash bangs minus that if they are entering a meth lab. They use tyvex suits with SCBA when they enter a meth lab.
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