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Posted: 9/12/2013 11:03:46 AM EST
I own a machine shop. I've been toying around with the idea to provide a service to people in my area that might want to complete their own 80% lower, using my equipment, jigs, tooling, and advice.

Is there any interest in this kind of service? What would it be worth?
Link Posted: 9/12/2013 1:36:53 PM EST
If you can drag the stuff down to Fort Worth, I have five 80% that I need to complete!

(Otherwise I will have to use my mini-mill.)
Link Posted: 9/12/2013 1:43:51 PM EST
I'd be down for something like that if it included the lower for $250ish.
it would probably be of more networking value to you than monetary.

now an HK lower build or AK lower build i would have screamed SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY
Link Posted: 9/12/2013 1:46:12 PM EST
Where at in Missouri? I am interested. But I thought it was illegal for a shop owner to let others use their equipment for this sort of thing?
Link Posted: 9/12/2013 2:31:55 PM EST
YES..... where are you located at ?

IF your in Kansas City, I am very interested, I will get a 80% receiver blank, and be right over !!!
Link Posted: 9/12/2013 2:56:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2013 2:56:45 PM EST by Dr69er]
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Originally Posted By badgerking:
Where at in Missouri? I am interested. But I thought it was illegal for a shop owner to let others use their equipment for this sort of thing?
View Quote




Makes no difference who the equipment belongs to, as long as the owner of the lower does the work (drilling/milling work) or if it is a CNC set-up to
start the machining operations himself etc.
Link Posted: 9/12/2013 2:59:00 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:




Makes no difference who the equipment belongs to, as long as the owner of the lower does the work (drilling/milling work) or if it is a CNC set-up to
start the machining operations himself
etc.
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By badgerking:
Where at in Missouri? I am interested. But I thought it was illegal for a shop owner to let others use their equipment for this sort of thing?




Makes no difference who the equipment belongs to, as long as the owner of the lower does the work (drilling/milling work) or if it is a CNC set-up to
start the machining operations himself
etc.


Highlighted part may not be true according to this: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=750262
Link Posted: 9/12/2013 3:01:07 PM EST
Wished there was someone near me to offer this service.
Link Posted: 9/12/2013 3:02:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By gerfungerpoken:


Highlighted part may not be true according to this: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=750262
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Originally Posted By gerfungerpoken:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By badgerking:
Where at in Missouri? I am interested. But I thought it was illegal for a shop owner to let others use their equipment for this sort of thing?


Makes no difference who the equipment belongs to, as long as the owner of the lower does the work (drilling/milling work) or if it is a CNC set-up to
start the machining operations himself
etc.


Highlighted part may not be true according to this: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=750262


Tanneryshop got raided by the ATF, partially for having a CNC set up for 80%'s. Buyer clamps in the part and hits go and that's it.

There was also evidence of a couple firearms being sold complete off the books, but either way, they got shut down.
Link Posted: 9/12/2013 3:22:05 PM EST
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Originally Posted By RDTCU:


Tanneryshop got raided by the ATF, partially for having a CNC set up for 80%'s. Buyer clamps in the part and hits go and that's it.

There was also evidence of a couple firearms being sold complete off the books, but either way, they got shut down.
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Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Originally Posted By gerfungerpoken:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By badgerking:
Where at in Missouri? I am interested. But I thought it was illegal for a shop owner to let others use their equipment for this sort of thing?


Makes no difference who the equipment belongs to, as long as the owner of the lower does the work (drilling/milling work) or if it is a CNC set-up to
start the machining operations himself
etc.


Highlighted part may not be true according to this: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=750262


Tanneryshop got raided by the ATF, partially for having a CNC set up for 80%'s. Buyer clamps in the part and hits go and that's it.

There was also evidence of a couple firearms being sold complete off the books, but either way, they got shut down.


This was the bust I was referring to. I would like to be able to go to a machine shop and learn how to do this, I never did learn anything shop-wise like machining or welding. I am in KC but I'd drive a few hours for something like this just for the experience.
Link Posted: 9/12/2013 3:55:31 PM EST
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Originally Posted By badgerking:


This was the bust I was referring to. I would like to be able to go to a machine shop and learn how to do this, I never did learn anything shop-wise like machining or welding. I am in KC but I'd drive a few hours for something like this just for the experience.
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Originally Posted By badgerking:
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Originally Posted By gerfungerpoken:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By badgerking:
Where at in Missouri? I am interested. But I thought it was illegal for a shop owner to let others use their equipment for this sort of thing?


Makes no difference who the equipment belongs to, as long as the owner of the lower does the work (drilling/milling work) or if it is a CNC set-up to
start the machining operations himself
etc.


Highlighted part may not be true according to this: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=750262


Tanneryshop got raided by the ATF, partially for having a CNC set up for 80%'s. Buyer clamps in the part and hits go and that's it.

There was also evidence of a couple firearms being sold complete off the books, but either way, they got shut down.


This was the bust I was referring to. I would like to be able to go to a machine shop and learn how to do this, I never did learn anything shop-wise like machining or welding. I am in KC but I'd drive a few hours for something like this just for the experience.




Welcome to the Obamanation
Link Posted: 9/12/2013 4:05:40 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Welcome to the Obamanation
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I believe that Tanneryshop / KT ordnance actually shut down in 2006.

KT's back up and running in some capacity now...
Link Posted: 9/12/2013 4:36:28 PM EST
another where you at ?. the cnc guys were getting $50/$75
Link Posted: 9/17/2013 6:20:15 AM EST
I'm in the Kansas City area.

I'm still trying to figure out the legal aspects of this idea. I've got no desire to get on the bad side of the ATF.
My understanding is it's ok to rent the equipment, and give instructions, as long as the student does the work.

Based on some articles I've read, the ATF considers programing the tool paths to be a major part of the work, so the CNC work will likely already be done.

If a class like this were to be offered, would you guys like to know just enough to get your part made, or would you like to be taught some of the intricacies of machining? For example, would you like to learn about cutter selection, material and lubricant selection, RPM and feed rate, climb cutting vs conventional cutting, ect? Or, would you rather be told, "take this spin it 1500 rpm and move it like this".

Link Posted: 9/17/2013 8:19:01 AM EST
I would drive up from St. Louis if the price was right, just for the experience. Would be even sweeter if custom roll marks were part of the deal.

Subscribing..
Link Posted: 9/17/2013 10:23:51 AM EST
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Originally Posted By MNotLyon:
I'm in the Kansas City area.

I'm still trying to figure out the legal aspects of this idea. I've got no desire to get on the bad side of the ATF.
My understanding is it's ok to rent the equipment, and give instructions, as long as the student does the work.

Based on some articles I've read, the ATF considers programing the tool paths to be a major part of the work, so the CNC work will likely already be done.

If a class like this were to be offered, would you guys like to know just enough to get your part made, or would you like to be taught some of the intricacies of machining? For example, would you like to learn about cutter selection, material and lubricant selection, RPM and feed rate, climb cutting vs conventional cutting, ect? Or, would you rather be told, "take this spin it 1500 rpm and move it like this".

View Quote


I would like to know the specifics, but I'm sure others would not. Use it as a springboard to peak peoples interest. Basic enough that the guy who just wants a lower will enjoy it and learn a little, but with a follow up class available at an extra fee for those that want the more advanced stuff.
Link Posted: 9/17/2013 5:37:49 PM EST
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Originally Posted By cycletool:


I would like to know the specifics, but I'm sure others would not. Use it as a springboard to peak peoples interest. Basic enough that the guy who just wants a lower will enjoy it and learn a little, but with a follow up class available at an extra fee for those that want the more advanced stuff.
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Originally Posted By cycletool:
Originally Posted By MNotLyon:
I'm in the Kansas City area.

I'm still trying to figure out the legal aspects of this idea. I've got no desire to get on the bad side of the ATF.
My understanding is it's ok to rent the equipment, and give instructions, as long as the student does the work.

Based on some articles I've read, the ATF considers programing the tool paths to be a major part of the work, so the CNC work will likely already be done.

If a class like this were to be offered, would you guys like to know just enough to get your part made, or would you like to be taught some of the intricacies of machining? For example, would you like to learn about cutter selection, material and lubricant selection, RPM and feed rate, climb cutting vs conventional cutting, ect? Or, would you rather be told, "take this spin it 1500 rpm and move it like this".



I would like to know the specifics, but I'm sure others would not. Use it as a springboard to peak peoples interest. Basic enough that the guy who just wants a lower will enjoy it and learn a little, but with a follow up class available at an extra fee for those that want the more advanced stuff.



This.
Link Posted: 9/24/2013 12:33:45 PM EST
Here's what's slowing me down. I know that the appeal in finishing an 80% gun is in the anonymity, but I couldn't live with myself if I made it possible for a criminal to easily get ahold of an untraceable weapon and use it in a very public way. What safeguards could I put in place to insure the ATF doesn't become unhappy with me, and that I don't make it easy for those that shouldn't have a gun to get one?
Link Posted: 9/24/2013 10:38:36 PM EST
I'd be in if this was happening closer to mn. But here in mn you need to have a permit to purchase. so if that's the same case there just ask to see the permit to purchase a modern rifle they have to be legal to get the permit anyway. But like I said not sure on your local laws.
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 8:14:55 AM EST
interested for sure, a price is all I need to make a decision!

I'm good for technical or get it done. Prefer technical since I'm a car guy anyway....
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 8:28:28 AM EST
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Originally Posted By MNotLyon:
Here's what's slowing me down. I know that the appeal in finishing an 80% gun is in the anonymity, but I couldn't live with myself if I made it possible for a criminal to easily get ahold of an untraceable weapon and use it in a very public way. What safeguards could I put in place to insure the ATF doesn't become unhappy with me, and that I don't make it easy for those that shouldn't have a gun to get one?
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You would need to have everyone building the lower to sign a release form and certifying they have no legal disabilities in owning a firearm etc.
I would get some legal advise first to cover your end f from any potential legal ramifications with the ATF or LLE, etc.

Good Luck.
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 3:33:52 PM EST
I'd be willing to make the trip to Arkansas for something like that. I've got 2 80% lowers that I would love for someone to walk me through how to finish them.
Link Posted: 9/27/2013 9:42:14 AM EST
This has my interest.

Personally I would love to learn as much as possible about the machine process as well as finish an 80%. The lack of tools and knowledge has the been the major factor in why I have avoided 80% lowers.

However if it came down to a simple "pay money do it this way and leave with finished lower" I'm in too.
Link Posted: 10/3/2013 8:31:45 AM EST
This definitely has my interest. I would love to learn how to perform the work.

Link Posted: 10/15/2013 4:31:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2013 4:34:40 AM EST by Lawdog-1]
I have a question. If I have somebody Mill inside the lower and when I get the lower back from the Machinist and use my Jig and drill the Hammer/Trigger pins. Is that Legal?
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 4:47:03 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Lawdog-1:
I have a question. If I have somebody Mill inside the lower and when I get the lower back from the Machinist and use my Jig and drill the Hammer/Trigger pins. Is that Legal?
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Per the ATF's latest definition of what it takes to not be a firearm (80% isn't a technical term), any portion of the fire control pocket being milled takes it beyond 80%, so technically, no, that would not be legal, unless the machine shop has an FFL, puts it on the books, and you fill out a 4473, which would defeat the purpose.
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 6:13:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By MNotLyon:
I own a machine shop. I've been toying around with the idea to provide a service to people in my area that might want to complete their own 80% lower, using my equipment, jigs, tooling, and advice.

Is there any interest in this kind of service? What would it be worth?
View Quote


I have been trying to get a Machine Shop in NC to do this. I know I would be willing to pay $150 or more if they supplied the 80% lower.

I think if they bought in bulk they could make some money this way.

Have the customer come in and do the work (under supervision) and walk out with a completed lower.

I am in. lol
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 6:28:14 AM EST
Any update on this?

curious minds are curious.
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 12:37:46 PM EST
I'm in Kansas City. I know myself and 2 other members of my family would be EXTREMELY interested in this happening.
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 5:17:50 PM EST
Subscribed.

Building your own AR-15 reciever reminds me of my experience in aviation. Its easier to buy a STC'ed (special type certificated) [I.E. big name manufactured] aircraft, than it is to prove to the FAA that the one you built is legal/legit. Even closer is the owner produced aircraft parts rule.

Back to the topic, to be legit, I think you would have to charge purely for the instruction and have the students provide the materials. The 80%ers have been a subject of controversy, even a media target for the firearm prohibitionists. Selling or reselling them, in conjunction with people leaving your place of business with a completed lower receiver, may paint a target on you.

Including instruction on how to register the receiver, and compliance with local law, will probably put you in the best light. I don't know the whole story, but it seems like for a $200.00 tax, a friendly sit down with local law enforcement, and this form, you could be worry free. (I.E. less trouble explaining your pride and joy to the cop that pulled you over for a bad brake lamp)

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf

Passing out the form doesn't mean it will be used, but passing it out and explaining why it is a good idea puts the responsibility on the owner. Explaining what basis their possession of the completed receiver is legal may keep your students out of jail.

https://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/industry/0501-firearms-top-10-qas.pdf

There is no way you can just teach the machining side. That is the easy part, well, for all except "that guy", probably the spawn of "that guy" from your high-school shop class. Then there is the whole moral compass, yea, what is the owner to be's intent. You could try making them stamp there SSN somewhere on the receiver, chances are if they were there for immoral reasons, they know how to use a file when they leave.

I'm 100% behind your effort, but I wouldn't try to make a living at it.
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 6:01:48 PM EST
would definately be interested
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 6:28:44 PM EST
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Originally Posted By OMAR15:
I'd be down for something like that if it included the lower for $250ish.
it would probably be of more networking value to you than monetary.

now an HK lower build or AK lower build i would have screamed SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY
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This! For the AR market, I think you would be hit or miss. The AK/HK/FAL market you would be g2g
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 9:12:27 AM EST
I would be IN!

One other thing might be to offer a training session on using the Sieg X2 Mini Mill (which seems to be the mill of choice for completing 80% lowers.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 12:41:43 PM EST
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
I would be IN!

One other thing might be to offer a training session on using the Sieg X2 Mini Mill (which seems to be the mill of choice for completing 80% lowers.
View Quote


I had to look that up to see what that is. Somehow I highly doubt a real machine shop would use something like that.
It's a toy.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 5:24:13 PM EST
Here is a section of a cease and desist letter that ATF sent to a machine shop in Calif." The fact that someone other than you or your employee operates the equipment or uses your tools to complete the process does not negate your role as a manufacturer in this process. In your case it is your equipment and instruction that results in the manufacturing of a firearm, and the ultimate control of the equipment and activity at your business is not with the customer, but with you." There was more to the letter but that was the section that describes the view of the ATF. Of course they reminded that the fine could be $250,000 and 5 years in the can. Hope this sheds some light on what is going on. Craig
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 5:31:23 PM EST
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Originally Posted By CMSENGINE:
Here is a section of a cease and desist letter that ATF sent to a machine shop in Calif." The fact that someone other than you or your employee operates the equipment or uses your tools to complete the process does not negate your role as a manufacturer in this process. In your case it is your equipment and instruction that results in the manufacturing of a firearm, and the ultimate control of the equipment and activity at your business is not with the customer, but with you." There was more to the letter but that was the section that describes the view of the ATF. Of course they reminded that the fine could be $250,000 and 5 years in the can. Hope this sheds some light on what is going on. Craig
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Yup, ATF boys can run guns and grenades to Mehico, but get really pithy about the 80% machining thing. Guys in Komifornia had parties going and they put a quick stop to it.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 6:27:03 PM EST
I have a couple young guys that I helped get into doing this. They purchased a simple small manual mill for around $900. I made them a fixture plate, and gave them some very simple machining instructions. What they do is, when they have an interested customer, they have a little pamphlet that describes what they will be doing on the mill to finish the part. The pamphlet has simple drawings with dimensions. The customer takes it home and reads it. Most come back, a few do not. The customer fastens the receiver to the plate himself. He then manually moves the x-y-z to finish the receiver. He has a template that he uses to scribe the cavity border so he has a line to follow until he gets close . He has a pair of dial calipers to finish to size. There is a drilling fixture to drill the hammer, trigger and selector holes. There is a stamping fixture to put a nice in line serial number on. I recommended that they put a serial number on it just in case they are ever stopped. The serial number does not mean anything to anybody but him. Law enforcement get pretty worked up over firearms without numbers. I also recommend that they take their picture of them at the controls of the machine with their phone.Almost all of the customers enjoyed the experience of doing it themselves. I have had to weld up a few spots for them here and there. Most of them turn out pretty decent. There are ways to do this. Craig
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 6:59:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2013 6:59:57 PM EST by PursuitSS]
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Originally Posted By pikie1:


I had to look that up to see what that is. Somehow I highly doubt a real machine shop would use something like that.
It's a toy.
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Originally Posted By pikie1:
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
I would be IN!

One other thing might be to offer a training session on using the Sieg X2 Mini Mill (which seems to be the mill of choice for completing 80% lowers.


I had to look that up to see what that is. Somehow I highly doubt a real machine shop would use something like that.
It's a toy.


Far from a "toy". Many Sieg X2's have been modified to CNC's
Link Posted: 10/27/2013 4:13:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2013 4:22:01 AM EST by iNeXile556]
Originally Posted by 80% Arms
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Unfortunately, 80% CNC Rentals, LLC does not offer build parties.

Our attorney, Jason Davis, who is also the attorney for Calguns Foundation, informed us today that he received a letter from the ATF stating: "ATF does claim that you need an FFL (manufacturing license) to engage in the 80 to 100 percent business operations - even if others are pushing the buttons and performing all the steps on your machine at your facility".

Based on this, build parties are now outlawed until someone comes up with a big chunk of cash to fight a lawsuit over this. This is a setback to those looking to finish their 80% lower quickly, but it's not the end of the world. It's possible to finish a lower using our jig and a drill press in about 3 hours pretty nicely. We are posting a tutorial right now, which we'll continue to expand and update over t
he coming weeks. It's really a lot easier to finish a lower with a jig that most people think.


Originally Posted By CMSENGINE
I was just sent a copy of a letter that ATF sent to a machine shop in Ocean Side Calif. The shop is Ares Armor Metal Works. It was a cease and desist warning that said allowing individuals to use their CNC machines to finish 80 percenters is not legal. Apparently, just fastening an 80 % lower to a fixture plate and pressing the cycle start button, does not qualify as finishing it yourself. The letter is lengthy and goes in to some detail. Their site is aresarmor.com. I was wondering when this would come around. I get guys coming into the shop all the time wanting me to finish them for them. When I tell them I will not jeopardize my mfg license and want no part of it, some get real pissed off. Any one else see this coming? Craig


The answer seems clear to me.

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