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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/22/2005 8:18:42 AM EDT
If one were to buy and complete an 80% lower, then use it to complete a rifle/handgun how would you register it without a SN? would you even be required to register it? would you be required to put some type of SN on it? I don't care about FAET or selling it because I intend to build and keep, but I am concerned about owning and taking to the range an unregistered weapon. Can anyone please explain or perhaps point me to a BATF link that addresses such a topic?
TIA
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:13:49 AM EDT
I have never heard of this registration you speak of
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:20:40 AM EDT
I believe it only needs a SN and such if you decide to sell it. If you keep it as your own, no SN or other BS is req'd.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:41:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 10:43:04 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
Excerpted from here: www.tanneryshop.com/MESSAGEBOARD.html


An 80% frame is actually a "special case" with the BATF and comes under restrictions that apply to any metal castings that are used to form the basis for gun parts.

In this case, what we are talking about is a metal casting that has been "almost" completed. It was cast, and then some of the milling work was done to it... but they stopped before they cut the slide rails (or any other combo of cuts that add up to the remaining 20% of the milling steps). Because the manufacturer stopped working on the piece BEFORE it was finished.... the piece is still in a state of limbo, so to speak.... it isn't really a "Gun" but it isn't really a raw hunk of metal either.

The castings do NOT have any serial numbers or roll marks on them (normally the last step in the manufacturing process). In this form they are still considered to be just pieces of metal as far as the BATF and the Brady Bill are concerned. If the manufacturer takes them one step further... then they are subject to all the laws of the land that apply to firearms. Remember that as far as the BATF is concerned... the frame/receiver IS the firearm.... and everything else is just parts.

So it is perfectly legal to order an 80% frame/receiver from the distributor and there is no paperwork at all involved. You do not need to be an FFL dealer, anyone that wants one can just call and give their credit card number and *poof* out it goes in the mail.

Ok..... sounds really cool huh? So what's the rub?

Well the bottom line is... YOU (and only you) have to finish the final machining process on it yourself. There are no serial numbers and the firearm (once it is complete) can NEVER.... let me say that again to be sure you understand it... NEVER, EVER be sold to anyone else.... period! It would be a firearm for "personal use only" and the only other living soul that you may legally give it to would be an heir (to your son in your will for instance).

If you build your own firearm in this way, then you are acting as a firearms manufacturer which is perfectly legal as long as it is for personal use only.

YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPLING WITH FEDERAL LAWS


It is your responsibility to comply with Federal, State and any Local laws concerning your ability to own, build or carry any firearm.

If you have any question as to your legal status; Consult the BATF and your local regulatory authorities.

As to the actaul BATF reg, that covers this issue:

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from making a semiautomatic assault weapon or assembling a nonsporting semiautomatic rifle or nonsporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a federal or state agency. [18 U. S. C. 922( o), (r), (v), and 923, 27 CFR 178.39, 178.40, 178.41 and 179.105]


Mike

ps - as noted above "registration of firearms" is thankfully not something those of us in the majority of states of the USA ever have to deal with....., yet.

BTW, unless you have ever completed an 80% lower for your own use, it ain't as easy as you'd think and requires a special jig, tools and drills along with excellent machinist skills on a drill press, depending on where you purchase your 80% lower/jig from. Many have ruined several 80% lower receivers before getting it right, but with the proper skills, tools, care and patience it can be done right the first time out.

Suggest ya read up on the "complete" process before plunkin down some cash on an 80% lower, as this is the cheapest part of the process.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:44:39 AM EDT
As mr_wilson hinted at, the irony of 80% lower builds is that they generally run 2-3 times the cost of a finished receiver, if you factor in the tooling required to get it done and that cost doesn't incude the machine itself - ie: the mill.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 4:10:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MasterOfNone:
If one were to buy and complete an 80% lower, then use it to complete a rifle/handgun how would you register it without a SN? would you even be required to register it? would you be required to put some type of SN on it? I don't care about FAET or selling it because I intend to build and keep, but I am concerned about owning and taking to the range an unregistered weapon. Can anyone please explain or perhaps point me to a BATF link that addresses such a topic?
TIA



Do you live in a state that requires registration of long guns? If so, make sure you comply with your state laws. I'm not aware of any registration requirements for 80% receivers in most states though. Most of the sites that sell 80% receiver blanks have a link to the BATFE's rules, and you should read those before you contemplate building one. Someone else on this thread posted an excerpt from the rules...
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:23:31 AM EDT
You don't live in CA do you?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:20:06 AM EDT


A good point was made previously, about state laws.

years ago, when I was in NY, I saw the torched remains of a pair of 100+ year old Colt revolvers. They were turned in to the base armory for storage, per base regulations. However, NY state law required all firearms to have serial numbers, but when these were manufactured, Colt hadn't started serializing their guns. I don't know if there was some law that would have exempted them, but the base LE contacted NYSP, who decried they be destroyed and this was done before contacting the owner. Took them to the base auto-hobby shop and had someone run a cutting torch thru them several times.

very expensive guns, with custom fitted cases. I don't know if the owner was prosecuted.

very sad to see an irreplaceable piece of american history destroyed.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:43:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

Originally Posted By MasterOfNone:
If one were to buy and complete an 80% lower, then use it to complete a rifle/handgun how would you register it without a SN? would you even be required to register it? would you be required to put some type of SN on it? I don't care about FAET or selling it because I intend to build and keep, but I am concerned about owning and taking to the range an unregistered weapon. Can anyone please explain or perhaps point me to a BATF link that addresses such a topic?
TIA



Do you live in a state that requires registration of long guns? If so, make sure you comply with your state laws. I'm not aware of any registration requirements for 80% receivers in most states though. Most of the sites that sell 80% receiver blanks have a link to the BATFE's rules, and you should read those before you contemplate building one. Someone else on this thread posted an excerpt from the rules...



What he's talking about in reference to registration is using an 80% lower to make a short barreled rifle, less than 16". Those are regulated not by states but by BATF. At least that's what I think he's referring to.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:11:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glfpunk:

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

Originally Posted By MasterOfNone:
If one were to buy and complete an 80% lower, then use it to complete a rifle/handgun how would you register it without a SN? would you even be required to register it? would you be required to put some type of SN on it? I don't care about FAET or selling it because I intend to build and keep, but I am concerned about owning and taking to the range an unregistered weapon. Can anyone please explain or perhaps point me to a BATF link that addresses such a topic?
TIA



Do you live in a state that requires registration of long guns? If so, make sure you comply with your state laws. I'm not aware of any registration requirements for 80% receivers in most states though. Most of the sites that sell 80% receiver blanks have a link to the BATFE's rules, and you should read those before you contemplate building one. Someone else on this thread posted an excerpt from the rules...



What he's talking about in reference to registration is using an 80% lower to make a short barreled rifle, less than 16". Those are regulated not by states but by BATF. At least that's what I think he's referring to.



Could be... you are certainly correct that you have to register any NFA covered (such as short barrelled rifle) weapon, however I didn't see anything in the original post suggesting he was planning to build an SBR.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:13:40 AM EDT
Eh, advice from the tannery shop. Take it with a grain of salt.

ATF does not recognize the term "80%." To them it is either a gun or it is not. I tried clarifying this myself to avoid sending samples - fat chance.

This has been hashed out many times. The legal language states you can't build it with the intent to sell it. You can decide to sell it later after building it. Obviously you would have to mark it with some form of serial number before hand.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:38:33 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:07:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 10:14:16 PM EDT by DonOhio39]
Pogo has the right slant on the ability to sell a home built firearm. After it's built, if you get tired of it, it's property and can be sold just as any other property can be.

So long as you aren't building machineguns or SBRs or somthing else illegal, you can build whatever gun(s) you want. And as many as you want.

The Feds define "making" and "manufacture" of guns as separate issues.

A private citizen "makes" a gun for his own use. No federal license, no serial number, no registration with the Feds required. They do recommend that the weapon be marked as to maker and a serial number put on it. They say this is to aid in recovery in case of theft or loss.

A gun company "manufactures" guns for sale. Manufacturing requires a license, that serials numbers be put on the weapon, and that records be kept as to where the gun was sent by the manufacturer.

Don in Ohio



PS: My 80% lower turned out just great, put an Oly PCR kit on it, no issues whatever.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:09:11 AM EDT
My advice, ya build it, ya keep it for yourself.

It's always best to err on the side of caution where the BATF are concerned, these are afterall the folks that enjoy busting down doors, killing people in their sleep and burning women and children, lest we forget.

Mike
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:33:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 9:33:59 AM EDT by HarrySacz]
And they shoot your dog from what i have heard.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 4:14:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
And they shoot your dog from what i have heard.



Anyone who would kill a man's dog deserves a specially nasty place in hell if there is such a thing. If anyone hurts my dog, they had better kill me. Because if they don't as long as there is breath in me, I will exist to extract vengeance on them.
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