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Posted: 12/2/2010 8:10:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1-Wolverine]
Dr69er and I are putting together a 6.5/223 wildcat, he has the reamer ordered, and is working on getting the reloading dies made. I am talking with Carl owner of Black Hole Weaponry about building our barrels.

It will be a 300 yard deer and hog slaying tack driver. I had a old hunting buddy call me today who is a lurker on here and saw my report on my 6x45  BHW barrel and wants a little more punch, he wants in on the 6.5-223.

I thought I would throw it out and see if there others that would be interested 6.5-223.

Thanks, Paul
Link Posted: 12/2/2010 9:37:35 PM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
Dr69er and I are putting together a 6.5/223 wildcat, he has the reamer ordered, and is working on getting the reloading dies made. I am talking with Carl owner of Black Hole Weaponry about building our barrels.

It will be a 300 yard deer and hog slaying tack driver. I had a old hunting buddy call me today who is a lurker on here and saw my report on my 6x45  BHW barrel and wants a little more punch, he wants in on the 6.5-223.

I thought I would throw it out and see if there others that would be interested 6.5-223.

Thanks, Paul


Here are some tables.







Link Posted: 12/2/2010 10:13:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1-Wolverine] [#2]
Think about that for a second, a thousand pounds of energy at three hundred yards, from a 223 case, that is awesome.
Link Posted: 12/2/2010 10:52:45 PM EDT
[#3]
This certainly IS an interesting little round.  I have tons of .223 brass and a couple thousand 120gr 6.5mm bullets!  I shoot the 6.5Grendel in an AR and an Encore, but something else with more standard components would be sweet.
Link Posted: 12/2/2010 11:26:33 PM EDT
[#4]
What are the details on the brass...can you just run 223 brass through the sizing die and be good to go?  If so, that would be interesting to me.
Link Posted: 12/2/2010 11:27:14 PM EDT
[#5]
Originally Posted By Curlymaple42:
This certainly IS an interesting little round.  I have tons of .223 brass and a couple thousand 120gr 6.5mm bullets!  I shoot the 6.5Grendel in an AR and an Encore, but something else with more standard components would be sweet.


That's the beauty of it, performance is not far behind the Grendel,  the brass is everywhere I have several 5 gallon buckets full of .223 brass, so if I lose a few hunting or shooting I don't sweat it with a .223 based wildcat, but with 6.5G, or the 6.8, I would feel like I have to get every piece back, and be scrounging threw the leaves looking for it, instead of enjoying myself.
Link Posted: 12/3/2010 10:03:01 AM EDT
[#6]
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
Dr69er and I are putting together a 6.5/223 wildcat, he has the reamer ordered, and is working on getting the reloading dies made. I am talking with Carl owner of Black Hole Weaponry about building our barrels.

It will be a 300 yard deer and hog slaying tack driver. I had a old hunting buddy call me today who is a lurker on here and saw my report on my 6x45  BHW barrel and wants a little more punch, he wants in on the 6.5-223.

I thought I would throw it out and see if there others that would be interested 6.5-223.

Thanks, Paul


Here are some tables.

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/IMG_0002.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/IMG_0001.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/IMG_0003.jpg



Which 123gr bullet is that?
Link Posted: 12/3/2010 10:15:30 AM EDT
[#7]
Very interesting. My only concern would be the depth to which a 120-grain 6.5 bullet needs to be seated in the case, and whether the ogive of the bullet will seat properly in the case neck. Both of these are, of course, issues with heavier bullets in the .25-.223, with the latter issue resolved with case trimming.

It seems that dummy rounds could probably be made up with 6.5 Grendel dies and .223 brass. Anyone tried this yet?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 12/3/2010 10:27:30 AM EDT
[#8]
Tagged for real world results.

The 6.5G pushes the 123 Scenar at around 2600 fps with more than a 30g load.  Dropping to 26.5 is around 2300 fps.  I don't see how a .223 case will have enough capacity, especially with a long 123 bullet eating up a ton of capacity to seat at mag length, to fit even 20g of powder.  The other problem I see is the bullet would end up being seated at the ogive of the bullet.  If this were going to work at all you would need to use the 85-90g .264 bullets, IMO.

Link Posted: 12/3/2010 10:51:45 AM EDT
[#9]
Originally Posted By Dogue:
Tagged for real world results.

The 6.5G pushes the 123 Scenar at around 2600 fps with more than a 30g load.  Dropping to 26.5 is around 2300 fps.  I don't see how a .223 case will have enough capacity, especially with a long 123 bullet eating up a ton of capacity to seat at mag length, to fit even 20g of powder.  The other problem I see is the bullet would end up being seated at the ogive of the bullet.  If this were going to work at all you would need to use the 85-90g .264 bullets, IMO.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/infoblocked/0001.jpg


Using PRI 5.56 mags will let you load out to 2.30", but that still isn't enough of a difference, IMHO...
Link Posted: 12/3/2010 11:11:58 AM EDT
[#10]
Your case looks to be .03 longer than mine. QL says I could hit 2350fps with the 123g Lapua bullet & a 24" tube.
I run 100g Nosler BT/95g Vmax @ 2450 with a 16" tube. I use a stock reamer & shorten dies.
Link Posted: 12/4/2010 12:32:04 AM EDT
[#11]
Originally Posted By Dogue:
Tagged for real world results.

The 6.5G pushes the 123 Scenar at around 2600 fps with more than a 30g load.  Dropping to 26.5 is around 2300 fps.  I don't see how a .223 case will have enough capacity, especially with a long 123 bullet eating up a ton of capacity to seat at mag length, to fit even 20g of powder.  The other problem I see is the bullet would end up being seated at the ogive of the bullet.  If this were going to work at all you would need to use the 85-90g .264 bullets, IMO.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/infoblocked/0001.jpg


Well, like Ron Williams and Quicksilver mentioned using a combination of long loading to 2.295" using PRI and HK mags, as well as using high quality Polgonal barrels, using very efficient TCU formed brass w/ higher case capacity, 20" and longer barrel lengths, etc.

All the points mentioned above give the round considerable advantages.

All the reloading data (AA,Hogdon,VV,Rams.) as well as two of the most respected computer ballistic programs all show a average of 2,450 fps w/ the same 123 Lapua Scenar bullet @ 24" bbl. length. w/ the 6.5 G.

That's 100 fps or less difference between the 6.5 AR-TCU and the 6.5 Grendel using the same bullet and barrel length.
It's certainly good enough for me.
Link Posted: 12/4/2010 11:07:11 AM EDT
[#12]
ok, stupid question, why not just buy a 6.5 grendel?  brass and dies are readily available...
Link Posted: 12/4/2010 11:22:32 AM EDT
[#13]
Dr69er,
How much velocity would you lose if you didn't fire form the 6.5 tcu? Also just to make sure you guys are talking about the 6.5 tcu, not coming up with a different 6.5-223 wild cat? What are you guys trimming your cases to for the 123? I would be all over this if you could push those 123's at 2500 fps out of 24inch barrel. Grendel brass is a headache, unless you have pocket.
Link Posted: 12/4/2010 12:42:20 PM EDT
[#14]
Originally Posted By firemannw:
Dr69er,
How much velocity would you lose if you didn't fire form the 6.5 tcu? Also just to make sure you guys are talking about the 6.5 tcu, not coming up with a different 6.5-223 wild cat? What are you guys trimming your cases to for the 123? I would be all over this if you could push those 123's at 2500 fps out of 24inch barrel. Grendel brass is a headache, unless you have pocket.


Yes, its going to be a modified 6.5mm TCU specifically designed for the AR-15 rifle platform. The shoulder angle,case length,case taper will be Engineered to be AR-15 specific. We will be using PRI and HK 416 magazines for function testing,and due to the excellent COL (2.300") and overal quality. I'm working on this project with Rugova Engineering and fellow ARF member Wolverene-1.

Non fireformed you loose about 125-150 fps...so the 24" bbl. will send the 6.5 AR-TCU w/ a 123gr Scenar 2.350-70 fps vs. the same round from the 6.5 Grendel 24" [email protected] a avg. of 2,450 fps.

Yes you can go w/ a 6.5 Grendel but like said you need pocket and have to deal with some real snobbs (AA and SSK), and back orders, and extra wear and tear, propr. nonsense, bolt thrust & feeding problems etc.
Link Posted: 12/4/2010 1:09:01 PM EDT
[#15]
How does this compare to the 6.5 MPC?  I considered buying one of them but ultimately went with the 6.8 spc because I wanted a SBR that still had good punch.
Link Posted: 12/4/2010 1:53:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dr69er] [#16]
Originally Posted By alemonkey:
How does this compare to the 6.5 MPC?  I considered buying one of them but ultimately went with the 6.8 spc because I wanted a SBR that still had good punch.


It will surpass the 6.5 MPC...as you may know I've had big Issues with JD Jones of SSK as well as his product not working as designed/advertised...His condesating attitude and lack of customer service is whats becoming legendary.

This was the one of the reasons I wanted to create/engineer a new Improved 6.5-223/6.5 TCU based wildcat specific to the AR platform...kinda like the 260 Remington/6.5 Creedmore...I was also tinkering w/ the Idea of a 6.8 SPC based wildcat necked down to 6.5mm w/ Improved dynamics.

The 6.8 SPC has better overall dynamics vs. the 6.5 Grendel BTW.
Link Posted: 12/4/2010 6:54:41 PM EDT
[#17]
Originally Posted By Dr69er:

Yes you can go w/ a 6.5 Grendel but like said you need pocket and have to deal with some real snobbs (AA and SSK), and back orders, and extra wear and tear, propr. nonsense, bolt thrust & feeding problems etc.


hmmm...

Brass:
Lapua and Hornady is readily available.  Yes it is expensive, but its good stuff.  If you want to go cheap, 7.62 x39 is easily fireformed into a 6.5 grendel.  Wolf ammo is also available and the brass reloads just fine.  (i am up to 5-6 reloads with no splits)

Barrels:
You dont have to go thru SSK or AA if you have issues with them!  Hornady, CSS, lothar walter, Model, and just about any custom maker all have them readily available.

Feeding:  easily fixed with m4 feed ramps and a bit of polishing.  Magazines generally eed feed lips adjusted.  You can use the 6.8 PRI mags as well (if you arent worried about the $$$)

Wear and tear:  you arent gonna have any extra wear and tear with your 6.5x.223?

Now, if you want to play with the 6.5x.223 to just be different and play around, i can understand that!  But to pass it off as a cheaper alternative to the 6.5 grendel, i dont buy it.  Heck, if you find a stockpile of 6.5 bullets for cheap, lemme know!   :)



Link Posted: 12/4/2010 8:40:09 PM EDT
[#18]
I have a soft spot for the 6.5,  I would have been interested if you had started before I got the .25-223 up and running.
Link Posted: 12/4/2010 8:41:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Originally Posted By speederx7:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:

Yes you can go w/ a 6.5 Grendel but like said you need pocket and have to deal with some real snobbs (AA and SSK), and back orders, and extra wear and tear, propr. nonsense, bolt thrust & feeding problems etc.


hmmm...

Brass:
Lapua and Hornady is readily available.  Yes it is expensive, but its good stuff.  If you want to go cheap, 7.62 x39 is easily fireformed into a 6.5 grendel.  Wolf ammo is also available and the brass reloads just fine.  (i am up to 5-6 reloads with no splits)

Barrels:
You dont have to go thru SSK or AA if you have issues with them!  Hornady, CSS, lothar walter, Model, and just about any custom maker all have them readily available. Nothing was said about the barrels, although barrels for the Grendel are generally more expensive

Feeding:  easily fixed with m4 feed ramps and a bit of polishing.  Magazines generally eed feed lips adjusted.  You can use the 6.8 PRI mags as well (if you arent worried about the $$$)

Wear and tear:  you arent gonna have any extra wear and tear with your 6.5x.223? No, because it uses the original parent 223 case,bolt,bolt carrier and pressure peak stays the same

Now, if you want to play with the 6.5x.223 to just be different and play around, i can understand that!  But to pass it off as a cheaper alternative to the 6.5 grendel, i dont buy it.  Heck, if you find a stockpile of 6.5 bullets for cheap, lemme know!   :)

Well, lets see...I can use all my original 223/5.56 parts and mags, low cost 223 brass (8-9 reloads), just need a new barrel. No other parts to buy.
No need to modify expensive and problematic feeding mags, new bolts that often stress crack (unless you pay extra for a 8000 or 9000 series alloy bolt),expensive brass
etc. and so on...

Look I'm not trying to piss-on the Grendel in anyway...I'm trying offer a real world solution using a cost effective method of getting the most of the parent 223 case in a great
caliber like the 6.5mm.

No need to get mad...just trying to get even and finding an effective way to beat the proprietary snobbs who love the keep the cost of a cartridge/round/platform artifficially high...

Peace.



Link Posted: 12/4/2010 10:21:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1-Wolverine] [#20]
Originally Posted By VaFish:
I have a soft spot for the 6.5,  I would have been interested if you had started before I got the .25-223 up and running.


Your wife must have been watching when you typed that, You can never have too many AR's :LOL!

Heck I want one of each, Grendel, SPC, Blackout, 762x40, 204, hell if I get all the AR15 based, I'll start on the AR10.

And yes I can quit any time I want, and NO I don't have a problem.


PS, the 6.5 has always been my favorite caliber.
Link Posted: 12/5/2010 9:27:21 AM EDT
[#21]
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
]Well, lets see...I can use all my original 223/5.56 parts and mags, low cost 223 brass (8-9 reloads), just need a new barrel. No other parts to buy.
No need to modify expensive and problematic feeding mags, new bolts that often stress crack (unless you pay extra for a 8000 or 9000 series alloy bolt),expensive brass
etc. and so on...

Look I'm not trying to piss-on the Grendel in anyway...I'm trying offer a real world solution using a cost effective method of getting the most of the parent 223 case in a great
caliber like the 6.5mm.

No need to get mad...just trying to get even and finding an effective way to beat the proprietary snobbs who love the keep the cost of a cartridge/round/platform artifficially high...

Peace.[/span]
[/quote]

i guess our logic is different.  When i buy a new barrel, i usually buy a new bolt to match and it results in the cost of a complete upper! :)  (unless you are looking to the MGI upper with quick change barrel route or similar)  You forgot the cost of the custom dies, case gauge

I believe the grendel has similar pressure spikes as the .223, but grendel bolt has less material

as for beating the "proprietary snobs" that is easily done if you dont buy from someone selling a licensed grendel.

finally, i am not "mad"  maybe i should use some more smilies or something   I am seriously just asking the logic for going thru all the growing pains of a caliber build to make something unique and "almost" as good as another caliber already in existence that fits the AR platform and has factory ammo.  I am not associated with AA nor do i want to be



Link Posted: 12/5/2010 1:09:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dr69er] [#22]
Originally Posted By speederx7:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Well, lets see...I can use all my original 223/5.56 parts and mags, low cost 223 brass (8-9 reloads), just need a new barrel. No other parts to buy.
No need to modify expensive and problematic feeding mags, new bolts that often stress crack (unless you pay extra for a 8000 or 9000 series alloy bolt),expensive brass
etc. and so on...

Look I'm not trying to piss-on the Grendel in anyway...I'm trying offer a real world solution using a cost effective method of getting the most of the parent 223 case in a great
caliber like the 6.5mm.

No need to get mad...just trying to get even and finding an effective way to beat the proprietary snobbs who love the keep the cost of a cartridge/round/platform artifficially high...

Peace.[/span]



[span style='color: blue;']You wont need to do that w/ a 223 based round, 6.5 TCU dies are readily available and olny need slight ajustment/modification to work...end user does not need the guages and reamers, the barrels will be complete from the manufacturer.[/bue]

I believe the grendel has similar pressure spikes as the .223, but grendel bolt has less material

[span style='color: blue;']No it is different,thus the bolt thrust is also Increased.[/span]

as for beating the "proprietary snobs" that is easily done if you dont buy from someone selling a licensed grendel.

[span style='color: blue;']Yes, it still cost more to shoot.[/span]

finally, i am not "mad"  maybe i should use some more smilies or something   I am seriously just asking the logic for going thru all the growing pains of a caliber build to make something unique and "almost" as good as another caliber already in existence that fits the AR platform and has factory ammo.  I am not associated with AA nor do i want to be i guess

[blue]The logic is fine...you get nearly Identical velocity w/ 4-5grs less powder...look to see how many 223 based wildcats there are vs the grendel...[/span]


[/quote]

Link Posted: 12/5/2010 3:22:26 PM EDT
[#23]


Yes, it still cost more to shoot.



[blue]The logic is fine...you get nearly Identical velocity w/ 4-5grs less powder...look to see how many 223 based wildcats there are vs the grendel...[/span]




you guys are bringing up the $$$ thing again.  I still fail to see how this round will be any cheaper.  Custom barrel, custom dies, custom case gauge.  You can buy a lot of grendel or 7.62x39 brass for the difference!!!  Plus, no one picks 6.5 caliber because it is cheap to shoot!  again, if you have some secret source for 6.5 bullets, please IM me the source!  If you want cheap shooting, in a centerfire rifle, then you shoot .223!

finally, explain how this bolt thrust is going to be different between your .223x6.5 and a grendel, if both platforms are going to send the same weight bullets at the same velocity...
Link Posted: 12/5/2010 3:41:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Originally Posted By speederx7:


Yes, it still cost more to shoot.



[blue]The logic is fine...you get nearly Identical velocity w/ 4-5grs less powder...look to see how many 223 based wildcats there are vs the grendel...[/span]




you guys are bringing up the $$$ thing again.  I still fail to see how this round will be any cheaper.  Custom barrel, custom dies, custom case gauge.  You can buy a lot of grendel or 7.62x39 brass for the difference!!!  Plus, no one picks 6.5 caliber because it is cheap to shoot!  again, if you have some secret source for 6.5 bullets, please IM me the source!  If you want cheap shooting, in a centerfire rifle, then you shoot .223!

finally, explain how this bolt thrust is going to be different between your .223x6.5 and a grendel, if both platforms are going to send the same weight bullets at the same velocity...


Its not just the weight of the bullet...Its also extra case diameter,extra weight of the case,larger case head diameter,higher charge weight,pressure curve etc. All are factors in bolt thrust...the 223 based round is also closer to C/L of the bore...less thrust,less recoil.

Peace Brother,

Link Posted: 12/5/2010 5:15:37 PM EDT
[#25]
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By speederx7:


Yes, it still cost more to shoot.



[blue]The logic is fine...you get nearly Identical velocity w/ 4-5grs less powder...look to see how many 223 based wildcats there are vs the grendel...[/span]




you guys are bringing up the $$$ thing again.  I still fail to see how this round will be any cheaper.  Custom barrel, custom dies, custom case gauge.  You can buy a lot of grendel or 7.62x39 brass for the difference!!!  Plus, no one picks 6.5 caliber because it is cheap to shoot!  again, if you have some secret source for 6.5 bullets, please IM me the source!  If you want cheap shooting, in a centerfire rifle, then you shoot .223!

finally, explain how this bolt thrust is going to be different between your .223x6.5 and a grendel, if both platforms are going to send the same weight bullets at the same velocity...


Its not just the weight of the bullet...Its also extra case diameter,extra weight of the case,larger case head diameter,higher charge weight,pressure curve etc. All are factors in bolt thrust...the 223 based round is also closer to C/L of the bore...less thrust,less recoil.

Peace Brother,




The 6.5 on the .223 case makes for a great cartridge, like both of mine very much.   I believe you contacted me about a year ago on mine.  What problem did you have with your MPC?  


I think a couple cartridges have gotten a bad rep for excessive bolt thrust in the AR so it's a misconception that any cartridge using that boltface must have the bolt thrust issue to the same degree,  the overall weight of the Grendel cartridge is heavier than a 6.5/.223, but the Grendel is a very "straight" cartridge in the neck and body.  Some argue that the additional surface area and geometry of the Grendel case offers more chamber adhesion under pressure, reducing bolt thrust as compared to something like the 7.62x39mm or a tapered .223 wildcat.  The TCU isn't tapered, but it does have less surface area than the Grendel.  I've broke .223 bolts running hot cats, I've never broke a 6.8 or x39 bolt running "Ackley" inspired cats.  Kurt's 7mmARk is about the most potent double-stack cartridge you can get pushing back on a non-exotic bolt, it's a non-issue.


The 6.5 / .223 will never surpass the Grendel in raw power, it will give it a run for it's money out of shorter barrels and in some ancillary considerations. even the 6.8 / .223 variant works better compared to the SPC to a point.  But the guys interested in more power will lean to the bigger non .223 cartridge no matter what the additional expense.  I love razzing my SPC club members with a 85 TSX @ 3,000fps on a .223 case with 2 grains less powder than them, and you'll get the same satisfaction to a point, but after that capacity wins.






Link Posted: 12/5/2010 5:19:54 PM EDT
[#26]
Originally Posted By speederx7:


Yes, it still cost more to shoot.



[blue]The logic is fine...you get nearly Identical velocity w/ 4-5grs less powder...look to see how many 223 based wildcats there are vs the grendel...[/span]




you guys are bringing up the $$$ thing again.  I still fail to see how this round will be any cheaper.  Custom barrel, custom dies, custom case gauge.  You can buy a lot of grendel or 7.62x39 brass for the difference!!!  Plus, no one picks 6.5 caliber because it is cheap to shoot!  again, if you have some secret source for 6.5 bullets, please IM me the source!  If you want cheap shooting, in a centerfire rifle, then you shoot .223!

finally, explain how this bolt thrust is going to be different between your .223x6.5 and a grendel, if both platforms are going to send the same weight bullets at the same velocity...


I'm currently working on my 3rd .223 based AR wildcat, the .25-223, and I really like the merits of using the .223 parent case.  Using .223 brass is definitely a cost saving measure, especially in the long run, over something like the 6.8 SPC or the 6.5 Grendel.  The bullets certainly aren't cheaper but all you need to convert a rifle is a barrel (though I would use a new bolt with any barrel swap).  The dies most likely will be of similar price or even a bit cheaper than Grendel dies.  

These .223 based wildcats use the same mags, bolts, and brass as .223 rifles and that has real merit.  If I were building from scratch the only thing that would make the 6.5-223 cheaper would be magazines as I could use my .223 mags.  Converting a rifle could be a bit cheaper if you are re-using a bolt but, as I mentioned earlier, I don't typically do that.  The real money savings is the brass.  While I understand you can make 6.5 Grendel brass from 7.62x39, I shoot .223 rifles alot and have tons of .223 brass (benefit of being a rifle instructor).  I suspect there are quite a few people here on arfcom with thousands of spent .223 cases.  If you shoot gobs of brass cased 7.62x39 (not likely as most of it is steel cased) then I could see a very strong argument for the Grendel.

As for mags, I don't like any mag I have to tweak the feed lips on to get it to work.  I've heard mixed reviews of the Grendel mags but have not first hand experience so I will reserve judgement but I know my .223 mags work and I have lots of them too.  

In the end, 100fps isn't worth the hassle of having proprietary bolts, mags, and cases to me but to each their own.  The Grendel is a fine cartridge and I'll agree that getting one doesn't mean having to deal with AA, espiecially now that the. .264 LBC is out.  In the end, I like options and this is another one.
Link Posted: 12/5/2010 5:30:18 PM EDT
[#27]
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By speederx7:


Yes, it still cost more to shoot.



[blue]The logic is fine...you get nearly Identical velocity w/ 4-5grs less powder...look to see how many 223 based wildcats there are vs the grendel...[/span]




you guys are bringing up the $$$ thing again.  I still fail to see how this round will be any cheaper.  Custom barrel, custom dies, custom case gauge.  You can buy a lot of grendel or 7.62x39 brass for the difference!!!  Plus, no one picks 6.5 caliber because it is cheap to shoot!  again, if you have some secret source for 6.5 bullets, please IM me the source!  If you want cheap shooting, in a centerfire rifle, then you shoot .223!

finally, explain how this bolt thrust is going to be different between your .223x6.5 and a grendel, if both platforms are going to send the same weight bullets at the same velocity...


I'm currently working on my 3rd .223 based AR wildcat, the .25-223, and I really like the merits of using the .223 parent case.  Using .223 brass is definitely a cost saving measure, especially in the long run, over something like the 6.8 SPC or the 6.5 Grendel.  The bullets certainly aren't cheaper but all you need to convert a rifle is a barrel (though I would use a new bolt with any barrel swap).  The dies most likely will be of similar price or even a bit cheaper than Grendel dies.  

These .223 based wildcats use the same mags, bolts, and brass as .223 rifles and that has real merit.  If I were building from scratch the only thing that would make the 6.5-223 cheaper would be magazines as I could use my .223 mags.  Converting a rifle could be a bit cheaper if you are re-using a bolt but, as I mentioned earlier, I don't typically do that.  The real money savings is the brass.  While I understand you can make 6.5 Grendel brass from 7.62x39, I shoot .223 rifles alot and have tons of .223 brass (benefit of being a rifle instructor).  I suspect there are quite a few people here on arfcom with thousands of spent .223 cases.  If you shoot gobs of brass cased 7.62x39 (not likely as most of it is steel cased) then I could see a very strong argument for the Grendel.

As for mags, I don't like any mag I have to tweak the feed lips on to get it to work.  I've heard mixed reviews of the Grendel mags but have not first hand experience so I will reserve judgement but I know my .223 mags work and I have lots of them too.  

In the end, 100fps isn't worth the hassle of having proprietary bolts, mags, and cases to me but to each their own.  The Grendel is a fine cartridge and I'll agree that getting one doesn't mean having to deal with AA, espiecially now that the. .264 LBC is out.  In the end, I like options and this is another one.


Very well written Altair, thanks.
Link Posted: 12/5/2010 5:40:17 PM EDT
[#28]
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By speederx7:


Yes, it still cost more to shoot.



[blue]The logic is fine...you get nearly Identical velocity w/ 4-5grs less powder...look to see how many 223 based wildcats there are vs the grendel...[/span]




you guys are bringing up the $$$ thing again.  I still fail to see how this round will be any cheaper.  Custom barrel, custom dies, custom case gauge.  You can buy a lot of grendel or 7.62x39 brass for the difference!!!  Plus, no one picks 6.5 caliber because it is cheap to shoot!  again, if you have some secret source for 6.5 bullets, please IM me the source!  If you want cheap shooting, in a centerfire rifle, then you shoot .223!

finally, explain how this bolt thrust is going to be different between your .223x6.5 and a grendel, if both platforms are going to send the same weight bullets at the same velocity...


Its not just the weight of the bullet...Its also extra case diameter,extra weight of the case,larger case head diameter,higher charge weight,pressure curve etc. All are factors in bolt thrust...the 223 based round is also closer to C/L of the bore...less thrust,less recoil.

Peace Brother,




The 6.5 on the .223 case makes for a great cartridge, like both of mine very much.   I believe you contacted me about a year ago on mine.  What problem did you have with your MPC?  


I think a couple cartridges have gotten a bad rep for excessive bolt thrust in the AR so it's a misconception that any cartridge using that boltface must have the bolt thrust issue to the same degree,  the overall weight of the Grendel cartridge is heavier than a 6.5/.223, but the Grendel is a very "straight" cartridge in the neck and body.  Some argue that the additional surface area and geometry of the Grendel case offers more chamber adhesion under pressure, reducing bolt thrust as compared to something like the 7.62x39mm or a tapered .223 wildcat.  The TCU isn't tapered, but it does have less surface area than the Grendel.  I've broke .223 bolts running hot cats, I've never broke a 6.8 or x39 bolt running "Ackley" inspired cats.  Kurt's 7mmARk is about the most potent double-stack cartridge you can get pushing back on a non-exotic bolt, it's a non-issue.


The 6.5 / .223 will never surpass the Grendel in raw power, it will give it a run for it's money out of shorter barrels and in some ancillary considerations. even the 6.8 / .223 variant works better compared to the SPC to a point.  But the guys interested in more power will lean to the bigger non .223 cartridge no matter what the additional expense.  I love razzing my SPC club members with a 85 TSX @ 3,000fps on a .223 case with 2 grains less powder than them, and you'll get the same satisfaction to a point, but after that capacity wins.
Link Posted: 12/5/2010 5:47:26 PM EDT
[#29]
Originally Posted By uptown1:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By speederx7:


Yes, it still cost more to shoot.



[blue]The logic is fine...you get nearly Identical velocity w/ 4-5grs less powder...look to see how many 223 based wildcats there are vs the grendel...[/span]




you guys are bringing up the $$$ thing again.  I still fail to see how this round will be any cheaper.  Custom barrel, custom dies, custom case gauge.  You can buy a lot of grendel or 7.62x39 brass for the difference!!!  Plus, no one picks 6.5 caliber because it is cheap to shoot!  again, if you have some secret source for 6.5 bullets, please IM me the source!  If you want cheap shooting, in a centerfire rifle, then you shoot .223!

finally, explain how this bolt thrust is going to be different between your .223x6.5 and a grendel, if both platforms are going to send the same weight bullets at the same velocity...


Its not just the weight of the bullet...Its also extra case diameter,extra weight of the case,larger case head diameter,higher charge weight,pressure curve etc. All are factors in bolt thrust...the 223 based round is also closer to C/L of the bore...less thrust,less recoil.

Peace Brother,




The 6.5 on the .223 case makes for a great cartridge, like both of mine very much.   I believe you contacted me about a year ago on mine.  What problem did you have with your MPC?  


I think a couple cartridges have gotten a bad rep for excessive bolt thrust in the AR so it's a misconception that any cartridge using that boltface must have the bolt thrust issue to the same degree,  the overall weight of the Grendel cartridge is heavier than a 6.5/.223, but the Grendel is a very "straight" cartridge in the neck and body.  Some argue that the additional surface area and geometry of the Grendel case offers more chamber adhesion under pressure, reducing bolt thrust as compared to something like the 7.62x39mm or a tapered .223 wildcat.  The TCU isn't tapered, but it does have less surface area than the Grendel.  I've broke .223 bolts running hot cats, I've never broke a 6.8 or x39 bolt running "Ackley" inspired cats.  Kurt's 7mmARk is about the most potent double-stack cartridge you can get pushing back on a non-exotic bolt, it's a non-issue.


The 6.5 / .223 will never surpass the Grendel in raw power, it will give it a run for it's money out of shorter barrels and in some ancillary considerations. even the 6.8 / .223 variant works better compared to the SPC to a point.  But the guys interested in more power will lean to the bigger non .223 cartridge no matter what the additional expense.  I love razzing my SPC club members with a 85 TSX @ 3,000fps on a .223 case with 2 grains less powder than them, and you'll get the same satisfaction to a point, but after that capacity wins.


Uh-oh, they must have changed something in the Matrix...
Link Posted: 12/5/2010 5:52:09 PM EDT
[#30]
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By uptown1:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By speederx7:


Yes, it still cost more to shoot.



[blue]The logic is fine...you get nearly Identical velocity w/ 4-5grs less powder...look to see how many 223 based wildcats there are vs the grendel...[/span]




you guys are bringing up the $$$ thing again.  I still fail to see how this round will be any cheaper.  Custom barrel, custom dies, custom case gauge.  You can buy a lot of grendel or 7.62x39 brass for the difference!!!  Plus, no one picks 6.5 caliber because it is cheap to shoot!  again, if you have some secret source for 6.5 bullets, please IM me the source!  If you want cheap shooting, in a centerfire rifle, then you shoot .223!

finally, explain how this bolt thrust is going to be different between your .223x6.5 and a grendel, if both platforms are going to send the same weight bullets at the same velocity...


Its not just the weight of the bullet...Its also extra case diameter,extra weight of the case,larger case head diameter,higher charge weight,pressure curve etc. All are factors in bolt thrust...the 223 based round is also closer to C/L of the bore...less thrust,less recoil.

Peace Brother,




The 6.5 on the .223 case makes for a great cartridge, like both of mine very much.   I believe you contacted me about a year ago on mine.  What problem did you have with your MPC?  


I think a couple cartridges have gotten a bad rep for excessive bolt thrust in the AR so it's a misconception that any cartridge using that boltface must have the bolt thrust issue to the same degree,  the overall weight of the Grendel cartridge is heavier than a 6.5/.223, but the Grendel is a very "straight" cartridge in the neck and body.  Some argue that the additional surface area and geometry of the Grendel case offers more chamber adhesion under pressure, reducing bolt thrust as compared to something like the 7.62x39mm or a tapered .223 wildcat.  The TCU isn't tapered, but it does have less surface area than the Grendel.  I've broke .223 bolts running hot cats, I've never broke a 6.8 or x39 bolt running "Ackley" inspired cats.  Kurt's 7mmARk is about the most potent double-stack cartridge you can get pushing back on a non-exotic bolt, it's a non-issue.


The 6.5 / .223 will never surpass the Grendel in raw power, it will give it a run for it's money out of shorter barrels and in some ancillary considerations. even the 6.8 / .223 variant works better compared to the SPC to a point.  But the guys interested in more power will lean to the bigger non .223 cartridge no matter what the additional expense.  I love razzing my SPC club members with a 85 TSX @ 3,000fps on a .223 case with 2 grains less powder than them, and you'll get the same satisfaction to a point, but after that capacity wins.


Uh-oh, they must have changed something in the Matrix...


lol lol  no deja vu

went back to edit something and resubmitted.

I would like to know the problem with the MPC though?
Link Posted: 12/5/2010 6:00:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dr69er] [#31]
Originally Posted By uptown1:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By speederx7:


Yes, it still cost more to shoot.



[blue]The logic is fine...you get nearly Identical velocity w/ 4-5grs less powder...look to see how many 223 based wildcats there are vs the grendel...[/span]




you guys are bringing up the $$$ thing again.  I still fail to see how this round will be any cheaper.  Custom barrel, custom dies, custom case gauge.  You can buy a lot of grendel or 7.62x39 brass for the difference!!!  Plus, no one picks 6.5 caliber because it is cheap to shoot!  again, if you have some secret source for 6.5 bullets, please IM me the source!  If you want cheap shooting, in a centerfire rifle, then you shoot .223!

finally, explain how this bolt thrust is going to be different between your .223x6.5 and a grendel, if both platforms are going to send the same weight bullets at the same velocity...


Its not just the weight of the bullet...Its also extra case diameter,extra weight of the case,larger case head diameter,higher charge weight,pressure curve etc. All are factors in bolt thrust...the 223 based round is also closer to C/L of the bore...less thrust,less recoil.

Peace Brother,




The 6.5 on the .223 case makes for a great cartridge, like both of mine very much.   I believe you contacted me about a year ago on mine.  What problem did you have with your MPC?  


I think a couple cartridges have gotten a bad rep for excessive bolt thrust in the AR so it's a misconception that any cartridge using that boltface must have the bolt thrust issue to the same degree,  the overall weight of the Grendel cartridge is heavier than a 6.5/.223, but the Grendel is a very "straight" cartridge in the neck and body.  Some argue that the additional surface area and geometry of the Grendel case offers more chamber adhesion under pressure, reducing bolt thrust as compared to something like the 7.62x39mm or a tapered .223 wildcat.  The TCU isn't tapered, but it does have less surface area than the Grendel.  I've broke .223 bolts running hot cats, I've never broke a 6.8 or x39 bolt running "Ackley" inspired cats.  Kurt's 7mmARk is about the most potent double-stack cartridge you can get pushing back on a non-exotic bolt, it's a non-issue.


The 6.5 / .223 will never surpass the Grendel in raw power, it will give it a run for it's money out of shorter barrels and in some ancillary considerations. even the 6.8 / .223 variant works better compared to the SPC to a point.  But the guys interested in more power will lean to the bigger non .223 cartridge no matter what the additional expense.  I love razzing my SPC club members with a 85 TSX @ 3,000fps on a .223 case with 2 grains less powder than them, and you'll get the same satisfaction to a point, but after that capacity wins.


Hello Uptown1, the big problem with the SSK MPC I'm having Is that It refuses to chamber the round, the round sticks-out about 3/8" from the chamber and the the bolt won't close...I tried just about everything...I even purchased a cartridge checker from SSK to eliminate any further chances of error, so I made some new rounds and it fit fine Into the checker but still didn't fit the chamber. Many emails later, I sent it back to SSK.

Six months later the upper is @ SSK and then JD Jones tells me to send him the dies and cartridge checker back as well, just more added expense and headache.
Link Posted: 12/5/2010 6:26:53 PM EDT
[#32]
Originally Posted By Dr69er:

Hello Uptown1, the big problem with the SSK MPC I'm having Is that It refuses to chamber the round, the round sticks-out about 3/8" from the chamber and the the bolt won't close...I tried just about everything...I even purchased a cartridge checker from SSK to eliminate any further chances of error, so I made some new rounds and it fit fine Into the checker but still didn't fit the chamber. Many emails later, I sent it back to SSK.

Six months later the upper is @ SSK and then JD Jones tells me to send him the dies and cartridge checker back as well, just more added expense and headache.


If I remember correctly, you've had the upper for a while and had shot it?

I had a similar experience with my 6.5 TCUish cat a couple years ago.  for lack of a better description, the "match" tight tolerance chamber I had made didn't get along with some of the flat base bullets I was using.  The pressures I was running the loads at were deforming the base of the bullets and depositing copper rings at the entrance of the freebore. eventually the deposit built to the point that the bullets ogive couldn't pass, stopping a 1/4" or so from going into battery.  I guess the pressure and heat "brazed" the ring in place, all the brushing in the world wouldn't get it out.

bumped it with the reamer and changed bullets, problem went away.   Hopefully yours will be as easy, although the hard way around.  JD can be a little gruff.


Link Posted: 12/5/2010 6:43:56 PM EDT
[#33]
The 6.5 TCU running fine...Its the MPC that has the Issues.
Link Posted: 12/5/2010 7:43:14 PM EDT
[#34]
Uptown, what 6.5x223 do you have? In a AR?
Link Posted: 12/5/2010 10:03:09 PM EDT
[#35]

As for mags, I don't like any mag I have to tweak the feed lips on to get it to work.  I've heard mixed reviews of the Grendel mags but have not first hand experience so I will reserve judgement but I know my .223 mags work and I have lots of them too.  

In the end, 100fps isn't worth the hassle of having proprietary bolts, mags, and cases to me but to each their own.  The Grendel is a fine cartridge and I'll agree that getting one doesn't mean having to deal with AA, espiecially now that the. .264 LBC is out.  In the end, I like options and this is another one.



once you tweak the lips on a magazine, it is fixed... i dont own that many mags so it is a non-issue for me, i guess.  (i might be in trouble when the zombie hoards attack though!)

100 fps is the only difference?  this round as talked about in this thread doesnt exist yet, correct?  There are no real numbers for it, correct?  the 6.5 TCU exists, but this is different.  The 6.5 TCU has some ballistics posted, but most of them are from TC contenders (with tight chambers), shorter barrels, and no gas system... please link me up if i am wrong.  searches on this site are horrible

I still dont understand how custom dies are cheaper for this round than a set of 6.5 grendel.  Lee are $55 and redding are $78 from midway and in stock...  how much are custom dies?

As for brass, i still dont see it as an issue.  Yes, it isnt free, but it is readily available.  Plus, i am not using my 6.5 as a hoser rifle (that is what i have a .223) so, i take to the range or hunting and shoot it carefully.  I collect my brass in a brass catcher and enjoy punching paper, mixed in with an occasional 'yote and deer.  :)

again, i am not trying to argue or be a keyboard ninja, just trying to understand the goals of the project and its real purpose.  I am all for trying new things... if there is a need.
Link Posted: 12/5/2010 10:25:48 PM EDT
[#36]
Originally Posted By speederx7:

As for mags, I don't like any mag I have to tweak the feed lips on to get it to work.  I've heard mixed reviews of the Grendel mags but have not first hand experience so I will reserve judgement but I know my .223 mags work and I have lots of them too.  

In the end, 100fps isn't worth the hassle of having proprietary bolts, mags, and cases to me but to each their own.  The Grendel is a fine cartridge and I'll agree that getting one doesn't mean having to deal with AA, espiecially now that the. .264 LBC is out.  In the end, I like options and this is another one.



once you tweak the lips on a magazine, it is fixed... i dont own that many mags so it is a non-issue for me, i guess.  (i might be in trouble when the zombie hoards attack though!)

100 fps is the only difference?  this round as talked about in this thread doesnt exist yet, correct?  There are no real numbers for it, correct?  the 6.5 TCU exists, but this is different.  The 6.5 TCU has some ballistics posted, but most of them are from TC contenders (with tight chambers), shorter barrels, and no gas system... please link me up if i am wrong.  searches on this site are horrible

I still dont understand how custom dies are cheaper for this round than a set of 6.5 grendel.  Lee are $55 and redding are $78 from midway and in stock...  how much are custom dies?

As for brass, i still dont see it as an issue.  Yes, it isnt free, but it is readily available.  Plus, i am not using my 6.5 as a hoser rifle (that is what i have a .223) so, i take to the range or hunting and shoot it carefully.  I collect my brass in a brass catcher and enjoy punching paper, mixed in with an occasional 'yote and deer.  :)

again, i am not trying to argue or be a keyboard ninja, just trying to understand the goals of the project and its real purpose.  I am all for trying new things... if there is a need.


My take on mags is probably a bit different than some.  I use them for work and if a mag doesn't work for any reason it is marked for range use only and never trusted for use on duty.  Tweaking mag lips just makes me not trust the mag.  This is, admittedly, my own personal feeling on the issue so take it for what it's worth.

If dies are that cheap for 6.5 G (I'll admit I thought they were more than that) then then the custom ones may be a bit more but I'm guessing around $100 to $120 or so based on the other wildcats I've purchased dies for.  

As for the numbers, Dr69er has a working 6.5TCU rifle and can base alot on those numbers.  I don't know how set in stone the numbers are for the AR specific version but if it is 100fps (or even 150fps) slower than the 6.5 Grendel in a 24" barrel that is impressive with the .223 case.  It should be even closer in performance when comparing two barrels of shorter length like 16" due to the case volume and diameter ratios with the bore.  I'd love to see some apples to apples in that regard (same bullet, same barrel length, from both the 6.5-223 and the 6.5G in multiple barrel lengths) but that is an expensive test that I suspect Dr69er and Wolverine can't do just for kicks.

How important the brass issue is to you is for everyone to decide for themselves.  For me, I shoot lots of my own .223 and get plenty of empty cases with the training I do so .223 brass is essentially free.  That is a big motivator.  The same mags and bolts are icing on the cake.

FWIW, I don't have a 6.5-223 or plans to obtain one soon (though I might be game in the future).  I have a 300FB, 7.62x40, and a .25-223 and all can be formed from .223 brass and use standard mags and bolts.  It is nice having that kind of parts compatability with all my wildcats and all my .223 rifles.  

The 6.5 Grendel is a neat cartridge and I'm not trying to take away from that but I do find these .223 based wildcats very interesting.  To each their own.
Link Posted: 12/5/2010 11:30:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Redtazdog] [#37]
The 6.5/223 looks to be the same as my 6.5 Whisper and has the same balistics when loaded
for supersonic.
Link Posted: 12/6/2010 12:04:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Dr69er] [#38]
Originally Posted By Redtazdog:
The 6.5/223 looks to be the same as my 6.5 Whisper and has the same balistics when loaded
for supersonic.


The 6.5 Whisper has a 23.8 gr. case capacity w/ a listed 2.260" max. COL and is 1.360" long untrimmed.

Link Posted: 12/21/2010 8:21:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1-Wolverine] [#39]
I may have the Grendel for direct test comparison when we get our 6.5/223. My wife told me she is tired of waiting she is ready for her own AR, she has been hunting with a 7-08 and wants something compatible, I may pull the trigger on a  Grendel.

Specialized Dynamics has a group buy going on with the .264lbc/6.5 Grendel w/BHW barrel till the 31st, I could have her hunting with it before our deer season ends. I wish she would have spoke up a few weeks ago, I could have got her the upper for CHRISTmas, it would have saved me some money.
Link Posted: 12/21/2010 11:39:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Paul give me a buzz tommorrow... I have some good news for you.
Link Posted: 1/13/2011 3:37:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1-Wolverine] [#41]
Barrels will be here in two weeks or so. I did not buy a Grendel, (building the 6 NFA instead) so when I start testing the 6.5 PCC I would love to have someone in central Alabama that has a 18" Grendel come to the house and shoot at my range and  run it across the chronograph so I can get some real world data on the 6.5 G for a apples to apples comparison. If not, I may just have to get a Grendel too:)

I know it sounds like I have a problem, but I swear, I can quit anytime I want.

Thanks, Paul
Link Posted: 1/13/2011 7:48:00 PM EDT
[#42]
100gr Barnes TTSX would be the bullet to use for hunting with this round. Sounds like a cool project.
Link Posted: 1/14/2011 1:22:23 AM EDT
[#43]
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By firemannw:
Dr69er,
How much velocity would you lose if you didn't fire form the 6.5 tcu? Also just to make sure you guys are talking about the 6.5 tcu, not coming up with a different 6.5-223 wild cat? What are you guys trimming your cases to for the 123? I would be all over this if you could push those 123's at 2500 fps out of 24inch barrel. Grendel brass is a headache, unless you have pocket.


Yes, its going to be a modified 6.5mm TCU specifically designed for the AR-15 rifle platform. The shoulder angle,case length,case taper will be Engineered to be AR-15 specific. We will be using PRI and HK 416 magazines for function testing,and due to the excellent COL (2.300") and overal quality. I'm working on this project with Rugova Engineering and fellow ARF member Wolverene-1.

Non fireformed you loose about 125-150 fps...so the 24" bbl. will send the 6.5 AR-TCU w/ a 123gr Scenar 2.350-70 fps vs. the same round from the 6.5 Grendel 24" [email protected] a avg. of 2,450 fps.

Yes you can go w/ a 6.5 Grendel but like said you need pocket and have to deal with some real snobbs (AA and SSK), and back orders, and extra wear and tear, propr. nonsense, bolt thrust & feeding problems etc.


Your numbers regarding the Grendel are not even close to being correct.
I am running a 123 grain Lapua Scenar at 2,330 fps from a 12 inch barrel with FACTORY ammunition.
100 grain Bergers run at around 2,500 fps with FACTORY ammunition from my 12 inch gun.

Your 6.5mm Grendel figures would be correct for a 14.5 inch NOT a 24 inch gun.
I have run 123 grain Scenars at over 2,700 fps from a 24 inch 6.5mm Grendel.

The concept of a 6.5mm/.223 is interesting......but like JD Jones proved years ago, you can't get enough
out of it. If you could, I'd have one instead of a Grendel.

But good luck with the project, be interesting to see what you can come up with
for safe loads.
Link Posted: 1/14/2011 1:31:17 AM EDT
[#44]
Originally Posted By Dr69er:

Look I'm not trying to piss-on the Grendel in anyway...I'm trying offer a real world solution using a cost effective method of getting the most of the parent 223 case in a great
caliber like the 6.5mm.

No need to get mad...just trying to get even and finding an effective way to beat the proprietary snobbs who love the keep the cost of a cartridge/round/platform artifficially high...

Peace.[/span]


[/quote]

No, you ARE pissing on not only the Grendel but JD Jones as well.
I've always found JD to be a great guy who simply does not suffer fools lightly.
Just about anything that can be done with cartridges like these JD did decades ago.

If you didn't want to piss on another cartridge then you would present factual, accurate data
in an unbiased manner. But you don't.

If you think you can come close to the 6.5mm Grendel with a .223 Rem sized cartridge, have at it.
But you are lacking case capacity. I mean, this isn't rocket science. If it was that simple such
a cartridge would have caught on a long time ago. JD did it decades ago. Others have since.
But you can only get so much out of such a small case. Why the 6x45mm was popular among
Wildcatters but the 6.5mm version never caught on.
Link Posted: 1/14/2011 10:23:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: sgt_mike] [#45]
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By Dogue:
Tagged for real world results.

The 6.5G pushes the 123 Scenar at around 2600 fps with more than a 30g load.  Dropping to 26.5 is around 2300 fps.  I don't see how a .223 case will have enough capacity, especially with a long 123 bullet eating up a ton of capacity to seat at mag length, to fit even 20g of powder.  The other problem I see is the bullet would end up being seated at the ogive of the bullet.  If this were going to work at all you would need to use the 85-90g .264 bullets, IMO.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/infoblocked/0001.jpg


Well, like Ron Williams and Quicksilver mentioned using a combination of long loading to 2.295" using PRI and HK mags, as well as using high quality Polgonal barrels, using very efficient TCU formed brass w/ higher case capacity, 20" and longer barrel lengths, etc.

All the points mentioned above give the round considerable advantages.

All the reloading data (AA,Hogdon,VV,Rams.) as well as two of the most respected computer ballistic programs all show a average of 2,450 fps w/ the same 123 Lapua Scenar bullet @ 24" bbl. length. w/ the 6.5 G.

That's 100 fps or less difference between the 6.5 AR-TCU and the 6.5 Grendel using the same bullet and barrel length.
It's certainly good enough for me.


Being a 6.5G shooter I do find this cartridge interesting is the shoulder changed (or did I miss the case dimensions) sounds like a cool 16" or less barrel entry weapon. posting actual data vs quick load data to me is a plus. thanks for the info guys keep it up
Mike
PS
FWIW my 2cents - JD Jones SSK does not have that good a rep based on  arrogance and superiority attitude among most shooter just my personal observations
Link Posted: 1/14/2011 11:58:18 AM EDT
[#46]
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By firemannw:
Dr69er,
How much velocity would you lose if you didn't fire form the 6.5 tcu? Also just to make sure you guys are talking about the 6.5 tcu, not coming up with a different 6.5-223 wild cat? What are you guys trimming your cases to for the 123? I would be all over this if you could push those 123's at 2500 fps out of 24inch barrel. Grendel brass is a headache, unless you have pocket.


Yes, its going to be a modified 6.5mm TCU specifically designed for the AR-15 rifle platform. The shoulder angle,case length,case taper will be Engineered to be AR-15 specific. We will be using PRI and HK 416 magazines for function testing,and due to the excellent COL (2.300") and overal quality. I'm working on this project with Rugova Engineering and fellow ARF member Wolverene-1.

Non fireformed you loose about 125-150 fps...so the 24" bbl. will send the 6.5 AR-TCU w/ a 123gr Scenar 2.350-70 fps vs. the same round from the 6.5 Grendel 24" [email protected] a avg. of 2,450 fps.

Yes you can go w/ a 6.5 Grendel but like said you need pocket and have to deal with some real snobbs (AA and SSK), and back orders, and extra wear and tear, propr. nonsense, bolt thrust & feeding problems etc.


Your numbers regarding the Grendel are not even close to being correct.
I am running a 123 grain Lapua Scenar at 2,330 fps from a 12 inch barrel with FACTORY ammunition.
100 grain Bergers run at around 2,500 fps with FACTORY ammunition from my 12 inch gun.

Your 6.5mm Grendel figures would be correct for a 14.5 inch NOT a 24 inch gun.
I have run 123 grain Scenars at over 2,700 fps from a 24 inch 6.5mm Grendel.

The concept of a 6.5mm/.223 is interesting......but like JD Jones proved years ago, you can't get enough
out of it. If you could, I'd have one instead of a Grendel.

But good luck with the project, be interesting to see what you can come up with
for safe loads.


FWIW I had some correspondence with JD about the 6.5 MPC after reading Dr69er's thread about the 6.5 MPC last year.  JD's data had a 20" MPC pushing a 120gr bullet at 2400fps while the 6.5G data I found had the 120's going 2500fps from a 20" barrel.  I asked him directly about that and his response was "It appears the actual difference between the two is of little consequence in the real world."

To be fair he went on to say that the Grendel has an advantage with heavier bullets and that the 6.5 MPC is at it's best with 100-110gr bullets.  I believe that to be the case and the case geometry of the 6.5 MPC (or this 6.5TCU based wildcat) would support that these .223 based wildcats will be much more efficient than 6.5G with lighter bullets, especially in shorter barrels, as they can use faster burning powders wihtout creating excessive pressure and can be used at a higher pressure (AA recommends 50000PSI where the .223 case can go up to 55000 safely).  With the longer bullets the case capacity gets eaten up quickly in the .223 based rounds compared to the Grendel case so the cartridges each have their strengths and are difficult to compare apples to apples.

In the end my interest in 6.5 bullets is with the longer slick ones so I went with a .25-223 wildcat because I liked the light for caliber bullet selection.  I intend to build a Grendel on an AR15 platform and a .260 Rem on a .308 AR platform for the longer range stuff.  To each their own.

I do not share your opinion of JD though.  I've explained why earlier in this thread and won't re-hash it here.
Link Posted: 1/14/2011 1:53:05 PM EDT
[#47]
Originally Posted By Altair:
JD's data had a 20" MPC pushing a 120gr bullet at 2400fps while the 6.5G data I found had the 120's going 2500fps from a 20" barrel.  

I intend to build a Grendel on an AR15 platform and a .260 Rem on a .308 AR platform for the longer range stuff.  


Again, as a Grendel owner, I'm just pointing out that the velocities you are listing for the Grendel are low.
My 20 inch gun runs around 2600 fps with factory AA 123 grain Scenars. When you actually build a Grendel you
will find this out. Basically, a heavy handload will push a 120 grain bullet out of a 12 inch Grendel as fast
as out of a 20 inch .223 based 6.5mm.

My point?

Let the cartridge you are playing with stand on its own merit. Don't try to confuse matters saying it will basically
equal a Grendel when it can't. I'd be interested in it because I have a ton of .223 brass and stock 6.5mm projectiles
already.

Link Posted: 1/14/2011 2:15:32 PM EDT
[#48]
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By Altair:
JD's data had a 20" MPC pushing a 120gr bullet at 2400fps while the 6.5G data I found had the 120's going 2500fps from a 20" barrel.  

I intend to build a Grendel on an AR15 platform and a .260 Rem on a .308 AR platform for the longer range stuff.  


Again, as a Grendel owner, I'm just pointing out that the velocities you are listing for the Grendel are low.
My 20 inch gun runs around 2600 fps with factory AA 123 grain Scenars. When you actually build a Grendel you
will find this out. Basically, a heavy handload will push a 120 grain bullet out of a 12 inch Grendel as fast
as out of a 20 inch .223 based 6.5mm.

My point?

Let the cartridge you are playing with stand on its own merit. Don't try to confuse matters saying it will basically
equal a Grendel when it can't. I'd be interested in it because I have a ton of .223 brass and stock 6.5mm projectiles
already.



I like using the .223 case as a parent for these wildcats, but I feel .257 is as big as it gets whilst still maintaining good numbers in the areas I am looking for (bullet weight/velocity)...

Bigger than that tends to slow the bullets down too much, and smaller gets you similar bullet weights as the .223 but with a larger bore...
Link Posted: 1/14/2011 4:02:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: uptown1] [#49]
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By Altair:
JD's data had a 20" MPC pushing a 120gr bullet at 2400fps while the 6.5G data I found had the 120's going 2500fps from a 20" barrel.  

I intend to build a Grendel on an AR15 platform and a .260 Rem on a .308 AR platform for the longer range stuff.  


Again, as a Grendel owner, I'm just pointing out that the velocities you are listing for the Grendel are low.
My 20 inch gun runs around 2600 fps with factory AA 123 grain Scenars. When you actually build a Grendel you
will find this out. Basically, a heavy handload will push a 120 grain bullet out of a 12 inch Grendel as fast
as out of a 20 inch .223 based 6.5mm.

My point?

Let the cartridge you are playing with stand on its own merit. Don't try to confuse matters saying it will basically
equal a Grendel when it can't. I'd be interested in it because I have a ton of .223 brass and stock 6.5mm projectiles
already.



I like using the .223 case as a parent for these wildcats, but I feel .257 is as big as it gets whilst still maintaining good numbers in the areas I am looking for (bullet weight/velocity)...

Bigger than that tends to slow the bullets down too much, and smaller gets you similar bullet weights as the .223 but with a larger bore...




As a user of .223 based wildcats and the Grendel, I can tell you the Grendel is gonna win out in a max power debate.
We all know the benefits of .223 based cats, but the "show the snobs" and taking a tinkle on BA or JD is coming out the gate sideways
If you're trying to promote a cartridge there are probably better ways, as said above, let it stand on its own merit.
I've had several dealings with JD and have never had any issues.
I'm becoming more and more partial to the 6.8x40mm at the range I use it for ( ~ 200yds max )
Makes power a little easier than the .25 and 6.5 with bullets around 85 grains.
2,970fps is effortless with a 85TSX and 26gr of 1680 out of a 16" barrel.  Not quite as slick as the 6.5 but at
200yds I look more at how well the cartridge works rather  than BC.
Link Posted: 1/14/2011 4:21:36 PM EDT
[#50]
Originally Posted By uptown1:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By Altair:
JD's data had a 20" MPC pushing a 120gr bullet at 2400fps while the 6.5G data I found had the 120's going 2500fps from a 20" barrel.  

I intend to build a Grendel on an AR15 platform and a .260 Rem on a .308 AR platform for the longer range stuff.  


Again, as a Grendel owner, I'm just pointing out that the velocities you are listing for the Grendel are low.
My 20 inch gun runs around 2600 fps with factory AA 123 grain Scenars. When you actually build a Grendel you
will find this out. Basically, a heavy handload will push a 120 grain bullet out of a 12 inch Grendel as fast
as out of a 20 inch .223 based 6.5mm.

My point?

Let the cartridge you are playing with stand on its own merit. Don't try to confuse matters saying it will basically
equal a Grendel when it can't. I'd be interested in it because I have a ton of .223 brass and stock 6.5mm projectiles
already.



I like using the .223 case as a parent for these wildcats, but I feel .257 is as big as it gets whilst still maintaining good numbers in the areas I am looking for (bullet weight/velocity)...

Bigger than that tends to slow the bullets down too much, and smaller gets you similar bullet weights as the .223 but with a larger bore...




As a user of .223 based wildcats and the Grendel, I can tell you the Grendel is gonna win out in a max power debate.
We all know the benefits of .223 based cats, but the "show the snobs" and taking a tinkle on BA or JD is coming out the gate sideways
If you're trying to promote a cartridge there are probably better ways, as said above, let it stand on its own merit.
I've had several dealings with JD and have never had any issues.
I'm becoming more and more partial to the 6.8x40mm at the range I use it for ( ~ 200yds max )
Makes power a little easier than the .25 and 6.5 with bullets around 85 grains.
2,970fps is effortless with a 85TSX and 26gr of 1680 out of a 16" barrel.  Not quite as slick as the 6.5 but at
200yds I look more at how well the cartridge works rather  than BC.


I run a 6.8 SPC quite a bit, and definitely like the 85gr TSX.  Good all around bullet.  Lots of fine bullet choices  in that caliber
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