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Posted: 7/21/2010 7:31:11 PM EDT
Got a package from heatNbeat today, my 605 barrel, what a beautiful job!, heatNbeat is a true craftsman his work is EXEMPLORY!!!!!!, naa, I'm not happy LOL!, he did an original Colt 1/12 M VP mkd barrel, cut it, threaded it, opened up the port to .110, permanently fixed the 3 prong & reparked it all, he also replaced the barrel nut which I didn't even realize had broken teeth as I never really looked at it, got the barrel & off it went.
The rifle is built on an NDS XM16e1 partial fence lower, original Colt M VP barrel, original 3 prong, early gas tube, early receiver extension w/o flats, Edgewater buffer, original Colt "605" upper w/FA housing ground off (by Colt), all of these I have seen have been done from very early uppers, straight forge w/the indent under the rear of the port door, early Colt chrome non-serrated carrier, Colt chrome bolt, early machined firing pin retainer, modified (flat head) firing pin, all Colt FCG parts w/the exception of the dimpled selector which is one of heatNbeats excellent pieces, D stock & correct early no drain hole handguards, the markings are by Ident, here's a couple pics of the barrel work & the rifle:







A LINK TO MORE PICS: http://imageevent.com/willyp/firearmsalbums/uscoltarmalitem16ar15556/coltmodel605
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 7:38:18 PM EDT
[#1]
Now that is nice, HeatnBeat did the barrel for you?  Is it full auto or just made to look as though it is with the engraving?



Quoted:
Got a package from heatNbeat today, my 605 barrel, what a beautiful job!, heatNbeat is a true craftsman his work is EXEMPLORY!!!!!!, naa, I'm not happy LOL!, he did an original Colt 1/12 M VP mkd barrel, cut it, threaded it, opened up the port to .110, permanently fixed the 3 prong & reparked it all, he also replaced the barrel nut which I didn't even realize had broken teeth as I never really looked at it, got the barrel & off it went.
The rifle is built on an NDS XM16e1 partial fence lower, original Colt M VP barrel, original 3 prong, early gas tube, early receiver extension w/o flats, Edgewater buffer, original Colt "605" upper w/FA housing ground off (by Colt), all of these I have seen have been done from very early uppers, straight forge w/the indent under the rear of the port door, early Colt chrome non-serrated carrier, Colt chrome bolt, early machined firing pin retainer, modified (flat head) firing pin, all Colt FCG parts w/the exception of the dimpled selector which is one of heatNbeats excellent pieces, D stock & correct early no drain hole handguards, the markings are by Ident, here's a couple pics of the barrel work & the rifle:
http://photos.imageevent.com/willyp/firearmsalbums/uscoltarmalitem16ar15556/coltmodel605/605%20door%20open.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/willyp/firearmsalbums/uscoltarmalitem16ar15556/coltmodel605/605%20shaved%20FA%20housing.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/willyp/firearmsalbums/uscoltarmalitem16ar15556/coltmodel605/605%20muzzle1.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/willyp/firearmsalbums/uscoltarmalitem16ar15556/coltmodel605/605%20L%20FCG%20mkg.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/willyp/firearmsalbums/uscoltarmalitem16ar15556/coltmodel605/605%20parts%20set.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/willyp/firearmsalbums/uscoltarmalitem16ar15556/coltmodel605/605%20L%20barrel%20stripped.jpg

A LINK TO MORE PICS: http://imageevent.com/willyp/firearmsalbums/uscoltarmalitem16ar15556/coltmodel605


Link Posted: 7/21/2010 7:42:56 PM EDT
[#2]
HeatNbeat did the barrel work & it's fantastic work!, no it's not FA, the pin is actually only an engraved marking, all the FCG parts are modified to semi only & the 3 prong is permanently pinned for legal 16" length but I'll be damned if I can see where he welded over it LOL!
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 7:55:29 PM EDT
[#3]
Outstanding...I ve got a upper/lower sitting in the safe..I sent my barrel off in January :(   not Jerrell though
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 8:24:38 PM EDT
[#4]
I'll have to contact him, did he park it too or was it already done when he worked on the barrel?

That's pretty convincing work with the engraving for the pin, I thought it looked real and or was just a dummy.

Who did the engraving work?



Quoted:
HeatNbeat did the barrel work & it's fantastic work!, no it's not FA, the pin is actually only an engraved marking, all the FCG parts are modified to semi only & the 3 prong is permanently pinned for legal 16" length but I'll be damned if I can see where he welded over it LOL!


Link Posted: 7/21/2010 10:41:39 PM EDT
[#5]
Wow.  That's a sweet little rifle!  Looks completely legit––as we've come to expect from you, of course!

This has made me realize that I have just about all those components laying around here...everything but the upper and an early gas tube...
I was thinking about doing an early 604, but I think I like this more!  Maybe I should try an NDS upper...

Nice job, both by Jerrell and by you!  Thanks for the inspiration.
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 10:51:20 PM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 2:14:07 AM EDT
[#7]
Sweet!!! Cannot wait to get my barrel back from heatnbeat.

Link Posted: 7/22/2010 4:36:23 AM EDT
[#8]
As always willp,FAN-DAMN-TASTIC.The attention to detail is awe inspiring.Great job both you and Heatnbeat!
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 5:19:31 AM EDT
[#9]
Looks excellent!
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 5:34:55 AM EDT
[#10]
Very nice!  And yes Heatnbeat does fantastic work.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 5:43:34 AM EDT
[#11]
Outstanding!  Love the original upper w/milled FA. Now you just need a DIAS for it. After seeing 45Bravo's Youtube demo of a FA 605, you'll agree.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 7:11:53 AM EDT
[#12]
Thanks guys, this one did come out pretty good, heatNbeat's work is just OUTSTANDING!, anybody who's waitin for stuff to come back from him I believe are going to be VERY happy w/it!  Another example, he's doing the barrel for my 607, started as a Colt 1/12 SP1 16" carbine barrel, he's gonna cut it to 10", redo the gas port & being the PIA that I am about these I "had" to have the FSB correct, remove the markings, shave the lug, smooth the flash, ok, no big deal right, everybody does that, BUT, another big problem w/the late FSB for a 65 era gun is the later FSB's have the drain hole under the sight post, being the "anal idiot" I couldn't have that on a 607, bug, pick, drive Jerrell crazy?, no problem he says, we'll give it a shot & see what we can do! The result?, I have pics only BUT, comparing it to the original forged smooth, no drain hole FSB on the M VP barrel on the 605 YOU CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ORIGINAL & HIS REPLICA WORK!, here's the pics I got, the ridge down the middle is even there just like the original! The pic of both barrels shows the 607 on left & the 605 (w/original smoothed no drain hole on right).






Morg, thanks, what's a DIAS LOL?, I also want to thank TGUS & 45Bravo for their help (& patience) for this project!
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 7:15:03 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Morg, thanks, what's a DIAS LOL?

Drop-In Auto Sear.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 8:17:48 AM EDT
[#14]
Ahhhh, interesting but I think I'll stay w/the semi's hahahaha! Definitely enjoy this too much to "run afoul" of the law, KISS for me!
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 8:29:03 AM EDT
[#15]
Great looking build! I remember seeing a 605 in a photo essay about Cobra drivers in about '70. I have a spare upper and this is a tempting build, a really neat variation.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 8:30:42 AM EDT
[#16]
very nice indeed

but didn't original 605's have cast fsb"s?...or did they come with cast or forged?


Link Posted: 7/22/2010 8:36:18 AM EDT
[#17]
Very nice!
I can't wait to get my barrel back from 45Bravo.
It should be here soon.

I asked 45Bravo about cast vs forged.
He said he said it was forged, but tgus's original 605 has a cast FSB. (picture on RBR)
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 8:37:34 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Ahhhh, interesting but I think I'll stay w/the semi's hahahaha! Definitely enjoy this too much to "run afoul" of the law, KISS for me!


Look at RDIAS.
That will keep you out of trouble...at least with the law...wives might be another thing.

Link Posted: 7/22/2010 8:41:29 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Very nice!
I can't wait to get my barrel back from 45Bravo.
It should be here soon.

I asked 45Bravo about cast vs forged.
He said he said it was forged, but tgus's original 605 has a cast FSB. (picture on RBR)


hmm, maybe..they go both ways
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 8:42:11 AM EDT
[#20]
Tex, I second that, the time frame for the 605's was about the time the forged/smoothed began, out of 3 that real 605's I got info on 1 had a cast FSB the other 2 had forged/smoothed w/no drain hole, when looking at original M VP marked barrels most I've seen have forged/smoothed, think it was like 18 out of 20 I have notes on, I think the major transition point of cast vs was forged/smoothed FSB's occured w/the VP mkd barrels. Hmmm, Cobra driver w/605, that could be a neat pic!
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 8:45:04 AM EDT
[#21]
RDIAS?, what in he.. is that now LOL!, wives ain't a problem, traded'er a long time ago for "toys" hahaha, & I ain't afraid a no X (read big mad wolfette) ( read, I'm pretty stupid!) LOL!
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 9:10:24 AM EDT
[#22]
Not that I can add anything, but on RBR the the pic with the 605 lying on the table appears to have a early square port door...at least I keep telling myself that to justify the repo one I'm putting on my build...
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 9:11:13 AM EDT
[#23]
I need a cold shower and a cigarette
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 10:03:48 AM EDT
[#24]
SWEEET build!!  Shes a beauty..
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 11:39:19 AM EDT
[#25]
Sgt there's basically no "correct" configuration for a 607, 605, very early XM16E1, very early 604 etc of the late 63-early 66 or so era, parts were being modified, changed, updated etc on a continual basis, ie:, port doors, uppers, FSB's, firing pins etc to address "problems" that were showing up in service, add to this that the 605, 607 especially were the first attempts to make "carbine" versions for sale to the military, there's 607's w/slick uppers, 601 uppers, chrome bolt groups, parked bolt groups, 601 lowers, XM16E1 lowers, cast FSB's, forged smooth FSB's, most, if not all the 605's & 607's were built as pre-production guns in an attempt to interest the military in a purchase & were built in a myriad of configurations using whatever parts happened to be available at the time, so finding a 605 w/an early "601" type port door is definitely possible, some XM16E1's showed up w/these also. The 605 replica in the pics was built using an existing registered 605 as a guide, the "guide gun" for this build though is a 605B w/burst FCG & it had a cast FSB, others I had gotten info on had the forged/smoothed & A1 type doors so all the features on the replica are on some original examples & vary from others. In another thread discussing the 605's it was mentioned that the 605 was not really a carbine but rather simply a shortened rifle (which in reality it actually was, but then isn't a carbine actually a shorter version of a service rifle?, that's what they've always been in modern military use). In the 1965 Colt catalog, "5.56mm Military Weapons" 2nd edition May 1965, the 605 is listed as CAR-15 carbine & described as a semi or full auto weapon, we know there were 605's that featured a burst mode, so which is correct?, the 607 is described as "CAR-15 Sub Machine Gun", also listed as semi or full auto, again, we know there were models w/burst capability, so the more esoteric the particular model it seems the more variations there are which would be "correct" for our application as collectors & replica builders.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 1:16:59 PM EDT
[#26]
NIce build brother!

I plan on building a 605 with a dissapator barrel for better reliability. Pics will follow.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 1:48:23 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
In the 1965 Colt catalog, "5.56mm Military Weapons" 2nd edition May 1965, the 605 is listed as CAR-15 carbine & described as a semi or full auto weapon, we know there were 605's that featured a burst mode, so which is correct?, the 607 is described as "CAR-15 Sub Machine Gun", also listed as semi or full auto, again, we know there were models w/burst capability, so the more esoteric the particular model it seems the more variations there are which would be "correct" for our application as collectors & replica builders.

This would not be the first time a certain sub-variant is left out of a catalog, especially for Colt.  I have yet to see any sales literature for the "Enhanced" series weapons that came out sometime in the 1990s-early 2000s, which featured a four-position trigger group as well.  Also note that the original Colt four-position selector was S-1-F-3 rather than the more recent style of S-1-3-F.  There are some rumors of four-position weapons manufactured in the 1970s as well.

Another problem one gets into is trying to match up the terminology of the retro community with what was actually produced.  Take the uppers with the forward assist lump milled off being referred to as "605 uppers."  I've seen those uppers on far more types than just 605s, but it seems to have stuck to that type for convince in talking about it.  The terms "601 lower" and "XM16E1 lower" show a similar etymology and have the same level of relevance than the "605 uppers" do to the actual part.  That's not to say the terms we've developed aren't useful, but we're still very much developing the lexicon.  We're still having to explain to people the difference between the term AR-15 as it applies in the late 1950s and 1960s to how it applies after its return in the 1980s.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 1:48:29 PM EDT
[#28]
Very nice build.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 2:25:15 PM EDT
[#29]
I'm suprised no one has cloned a 605 BC yet.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 2:25:31 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
very nice indeed

but didn't original 605's have cast fsb"s?...or did they come with cast or forged?




All the reference I have seen show cast on the 605, that is why mine will have a cast FSB. The pictures in The Black Rifle book show it being cast, tgus's 605 is cast, & retroblackrifle.com shows cast.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 3:01:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
I'm suprised no one has cloned a 605 BC yet.

What's BC?
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 3:16:06 PM EDT
[#32]
That guy, I agree w/you, wasn't citing the catalog as the "definitive" resource on anything, just using it to illustrate that nothing out there is really definitive at this point, your point is actually what I was trying to show. HK, not sure what your point is?, sounds like you're stating that a 605 has to have a cast FSB to be "correct", if so, ok, for the references you cite, yes, Tgus's 605 has a cast FSB, he was very helpful w/me also when I was researching for mine, "The Black Rifle" has 1 pic of an actual 605 "production" gun (both sides) & 1 of a pre-production build w/a mid length gas system, I can't tell from those pics if the FSB's are cast or forged but I'll agree w/your better eyesight & agree they're cast for discussions sake, the pics on RBR are the same as above, the 1 pic is from TBR, the other is of Tgus's, I would feel the pre-production gun (if it is in fact a cast FSB) has no real relevence to this discussion as it's a hand built tool room experimental piece & we really have no idea when the rifle was made, that leaves 2 guns you're using as "definite" reference that they all had cast FSB's & only 1, Tgus's is verifiable as I don't think the other pic (or 2 but they're both the same pic) is really definitive. On the other side I have info on 2 that have forged smooth FSB's, now, could those 2 have been changed?, yes I guess so but both have the proper M VP barrel & neither have the 603 receiver w/shaved FA. The "accepted" timeline on the cast FSB is up to as late as 66, the same on the forged smoothed FSB is 64- on, I've looked at & gotten info on a number of M VP barrels & as stated earlier almost all had forged/smoothed FSB's, a couple had cast, is a cast FSB correct on a 605?, absolutely, congrats on having one for your 605, if I had an M VP barrel w/a cast FSB I would have used it on mine but I wouldn't say 605's ONLY used cast FSB's. Existing guns & the timeline involved I feel points that out, you're going by 1 pic & Tgus's gun, I'm going by 3 existing guns, observation of M VP barrels & the "parts timeline" as I've researched it & feel either is correct on a 605. Good luck on your build, lookin forward to seein it when it's completed, we're gonna have more 605's on this forum soon than were ever made by Colt LOL!
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 3:30:00 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm suprised no one has cloned a 605 BC yet.

What's BC?


Bolt Carrier.  There was an experimental carrier.  There's a pic of it in the Black Rifle V1.

Actually it was for all shorties and carbines and the HB LMG.  It's on the page for the 605 (Not specifically for the 605).

Link Posted: 7/22/2010 3:42:12 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm suprised no one has cloned a 605 BC yet.

What's BC?


Bolt Carrier.  There was an experimental carrier.  There's a pic of it in the Black Rifle V1.

Actually it was for all shorties and carbines and the HB LMG.  It's on the page for the 605 (Not specifically for the 605).


That's what I figured you were talking about, but I didn't know they had a special carrier.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 3:48:07 PM EDT
[#35]
I should correct myself, it wasn't special to the 605.  But it's one part I haven't seen replicated yet.  Sorta looks like a 9mm BC.

If these guy's weren't so anal about every detail on their builds, the rest of us wouldn't learn anything
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 4:49:27 PM EDT
[#36]
How much did Ident charge you for the engravings?
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 5:00:53 PM EDT
[#37]
I sent 5 lowers to them, 6 before that, each is different depending on the markings you want etc, best to check directly w/them w/exactly what you want/need done.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 5:56:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
HK, not sure what your point is?, sounds like you're stating that a 605 has to have a cast FSB to be "correct", if so, ok, for the references you cite, yes, Tgus's 605 has a cast FSB, he was very helpful w/me also when I was researching for mine, "The Black Rifle" has 1 pic of an actual 605 "production" gun (both sides) & 1 of a pre-production build w/a mid length gas system, I can't tell from those pics if the FSB's are cast or forged but I'll agree w/your better eyesight & agree they're cast for discussions sake, the pics on RBR are the same as above, the 1 pic is from TBR, the other is of Tgus's, I would feel the pre-production gun (if it is in fact a cast FSB) has no real relevence to this discussion as it's a hand built tool room experimental piece & we really have no idea when the rifle was made, that leaves 2 guns you're using as "definite" reference that they all had cast FSB's & only 1, Tgus's is verifiable as I don't think the other pic (or 2 but they're both the same pic) is really definitive. On the other side I have info on 2 that have forged smooth FSB's, now, could those 2 have been changed?, yes I guess so but both have the proper M VP barrel & neither have the 603 receiver w/shaved FA. The "accepted" timeline on the cast FSB is up to as late as 66, the same on the forged smoothed FSB is 64- on, I've looked at & gotten info on a number of M VP barrels & as stated earlier almost all had forged/smoothed FSB's, a couple had cast, is a cast FSB correct on a 605?, absolutely, congrats on having one for your 605, if I had an M VP barrel w/a cast FSB I would have used it on mine but I wouldn't say 605's ONLY used cast FSB's. Existing guns & the timeline involved I feel points that out, you're going by 1 pic & Tgus's gun, I'm going by 3 existing guns, observation of M VP barrels & the "parts timeline" as I've researched it & feel either is correct on a 605. Good luck on your build, lookin forward to seein it when it's completed, we're gonna have more 605's on this forum soon than were ever made by Colt LOL!


Did not really have a "point", was just saying mine is going to have a cast FSB cause the references I have seen does too. I'm not saying one is right, the other is wrong.

The only way I can really tell the FSB are cast in TBR is the bottom edge of back of the FSB. It goes all the way down & meets the hand guard retainer, unlike a forged that does not go all the way down to the hand guard retainer.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 7:41:22 PM EDT
[#39]
Ok, well if I've somehow offended you I apologize, was not the intent, & I'll try & do better if my post is not understandable, as for my "toes of knowledge"?, ouch LOL! I was asking a question regarding your post about the FSB, I read it as you saying you felt the cast FSB was THE correct one for a 605, I believe I actually asked that in that post but my writing/typing skills are not the best, you cited the references you based that on, which, again, I agreed with, I simply pointed out that "TBR" & RBR are the same references, I explained why I felt the cast FSB was not the ONLY one for the 605 & did what you did, I cited info I've accumulated through my research which I began when I decided to do a 605, I used the same references you did, which I consider "passive research", ie: reading/looking at published/available sources & continued on with 'active research", ie: attempting to track down existing rifles, owners, museums etc to gain a bit more & new info to expand my "references" & share them here w/other interested members including you as I know you're an active & interested member here, I'm sorry if my "toes of knowledge" (that IS an interesting dig LOL!) offended you, was not meant to, I'll try & keep new info etc to myself from now on if it somehow causes a problem. Still looking forward to seeing to pics of your 605 when done as your builds are always first class & beautifully done.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 8:09:20 PM EDT
[#40]
willp,PLEASE do not EVER keep your well researched info to yourself.You take it to a level that most of us don't or can't for one reason or another.I soak up every thing you post as I know your info is never based on 1 or 2 pics,but on actual existing weapons.Please continue to share with us.Will it help if I say "pretty please"
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 8:33:58 PM EDT
[#41]
I originally thought that 605s only came with cast FSB, but when 45Bravo told me he had seen forged, I figured that either was correct.
I appreciate the research that Willp shares.
He seems to be even more anal than I am about researching his builds.
When he shares his findings I sponge off his work.
I'm anal, but lazy.
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 5:01:41 PM EDT
[#42]


And thank you very much for all the hard research work you do.
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 6:14:26 PM EDT
[#43]
Very nice! Your attention to detail is what I admire about your builds.

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