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Posted: 3/5/2005 2:31:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2005 6:10:29 PM EST by toxic]
Went to the range today with some handloaded 77 SMK and some Vmax's. Wanted to see if my 1 in 9 would stabilize the 77's as I want to go to the Camp Butner long range clinic next weekend. I was literally dumbfounded!!!



77 SMK ,Winchester brass, Federal GM205 M primer, 23.5 Grains Varget
1.855 comparator length
2688 average velocity
24.7 standard deviation
90.38 extreme spread

50 Vmax group. First shots from clean barrel
Link Posted: 3/5/2005 2:34:26 PM EST
What did you shoot these out of?
Link Posted: 3/5/2005 2:35:01 PM EST
I must see your rifle, stat!

And whats your 50 grain V-Max load? Mine never turned out that good, granted I was using a progressive to build the load (only way to sustain the habit) between Tac-Shot and H335 I couldnt find anything really impressive...

Link Posted: 3/5/2005 2:38:18 PM EST
What sort of glass are you using?
Link Posted: 3/5/2005 2:58:25 PM EST
Tomorow I will take some pics of the rifle outside. It is a Megga upper and lower with a 24 inch Krieger 1 in 9 full floated barrrel. When I started this I wanted to see just how accurate I could make it and have learned a lot in the process. At first I was getting some fliers beside the clean barrell shot and averaging in the .5's to .7 " with handloads. Then started reading everything I could on Accurate AR's. Here is what I have done....
Sightron target scope 4x16 (like it a lot)
Added a carrier weight similar to David Tubbs CWS system.
JP split pin ( This helps!! I really believe it helped when bagged in. Gun tracks better in bags)
Added the lead weight in the buttstock
Use a 3 inch wide front "accuracy rest" to make for a stable front rest point.
Added antifriction tape to the areas that contact the bags for less bag drag.
Use a good front rest with a stop and make sure rifle tracks true in bags and returns to point of aim after each shot when pushed back to front stop.

I have also "lapped" the bolt lugs and polished bolt face and cleaned up all mating surfaces on the bolt. This may have just made me feel better but I think all these things "work together" and were just the fine tuning. It all starts with a good barrel. This gun is HEAVY and I can watch the bullet strike through the scope. I like that

The Vmax loads are 27 grains Varget and federal GM205M primers
Link Posted: 3/5/2005 3:03:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/5/2005 3:10:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
I am not the best person to say and if I am mistaken I am sure I will be corrected. Bus as I recall, the slower twist barrels have trouble stabalizing the heavier bullets at longer ranges? If that is in fact the case, you wouldnt notice the difference at 100 yards.



I am concerned about that as well. I have plenty of 69 SMK that I know stabilize to at least 300 yards. I was not able to test the 77's out past 100 but hopefully I will get to before the Clinic. I really want to shoot the 77's but am taking the 69's in case.
Link Posted: 3/5/2005 5:10:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By toxic:
Tomorow I will take some pics of the rifle outside. It is a Megga upper and lower with a 24 inch Krieger 1 in 9 full floated barrrel.



What?!?!?!?!?! It's not a professionally built Wilson Combat or Les Baer rifle?!?!?!? You must be lying. Nobody builds rifles with accuracy like that.

On a serious note, that is some great shooting. Sounds like a good selection of components also. Good job.
Link Posted: 3/5/2005 5:23:53 PM EST
Your load is obviously an accurate combination (albeit a little slow by military standard). The AMU target load leaves a 20-inch barrel at about 2775 fps. MK262 is slower (the velocity escapes me, but I vaguely remember something in the 2650 fps range out of a 20-incher).

You should be OK out to 500-600 yards. As you boost up your speed you may or may not get a bit bigger dispersion.

Nice shooting!
Link Posted: 3/5/2005 5:25:40 PM EST
sweet
Link Posted: 3/5/2005 5:50:43 PM EST
Scepticly amused.
Link Posted: 3/5/2005 6:09:24 PM EST
+1, The load will perform much different at 600yds. Take some of your 69 loads to the match just in case the 77 really don't do well at long range.
Link Posted: 3/5/2005 6:41:14 PM EST
If those groups are real.............dude, you are da man
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 3:27:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sinister:
Your load is obviously an accurate combination (albeit a little slow by military standard). The AMU target load leaves a 20-inch barrel at about 2775 fps. MK262 is slower (the velocity escapes me, but I vaguely remember something in the 2650 fps range out of a 20-incher).

You should be OK out to 500-600 yards. As you boost up your speed you may or may not get a bit bigger dispersion.

Nice shooting!



I was hoping for about 2800 FPS. That was the first loading for that combo. I have a little room to up powder , so I may give it a try. My 69's chrono around 2850. Just running out of time.
I have a 40 Vmax that chrono's at 3700 The wind blows it around a bit though.
Thanks for all the comments guys.
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 4:00:03 AM EST
Can you say PIN DRIVER . WOW nice shooting. I need to get me some bags to shoot of of one day.
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 4:02:27 AM EST
toxic, that is some very impressive shooting....

No matter what the gun/optics.
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 4:06:54 AM EST
AMAZING group! If you get a chance...tell us how those rounds performed at the long range clinic! hug.gif
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 6:23:05 AM EST
Toxic, with a plain (non-moly coated 77) I imagine you could go up to around 24.5 - 24.7 and get better velocity without drastically opening up your groups. The 77s will give you better wind resistance at 300 than the 69s, though they may not group as tight. With the longer barrel you may find your brass is going to get worked a little more than with a 20-incher (you'll see dents in the side of your cases from hitting the rear of the ejection port and the brass deflector hump, or you may find your case mouths hitting, depending on your bolt carrier group's timing).

Something that may help is a Tubb Carrier Weight System (which will help delay bolt carrier group movement and give you a little better brass life).
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 8:57:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sinister:

Something that may help is a Tubb Carrier Weight System (which will help delay bolt carrier group movement and give you a little better brass life).



Earlier in the post I wrote that I already have a carrier weight similar to Tubb's. It is not as heavy (3 oz's) but it does help from banging the brass and makes the cycling less violent. I am going to up the powder some and try it. Here is a pic of the rifle. Pretty plain looking except for the LONG barrel and grip.
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 9:03:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 10:15:04 AM EST
AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

Awesome! Great Stuff!
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 10:53:01 AM EST
hail.gif hail.gif hail.gif

nice group Toxic, nothing else to do but praise you.

Link Posted: 3/6/2005 11:03:53 AM EST
Good work. Long tube
Link Posted: 3/7/2005 7:04:29 PM EST
Very impressive, nice work!
_________________________________________
Link Posted: 3/8/2005 2:54:31 AM EST
impressive indeed!!
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:01:15 PM EST
Very nice!
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:13:42 PM EST
Amazing
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:09:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2005 9:11:59 PM EST by Dont-Tread-On-Me]

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
I am not the best person to say and if I am mistaken I am sure I will be corrected. Bus as I recall, the slower twist barrels have trouble stabalizing the heavier bullets at longer ranges? If that is in fact the case, you wouldnt notice the difference at 100 yards.



I seriously doubt the felllow who shot that dime sized group will have any stabilization problems out past 100 yards.


If you recall his 1st post, he says he has a 1-9 24 INCH barrel. While 1-9 isn't regarded as the best for stabilizing 77 grain loads (according to folks on this site) you have to consider the length of the barrel. A 24" barrel produces more velocity. However, it isn't velocity that really stabilizes the bullet. It is the extra 100-120fps extra velocity IN the barrel for an extra 4" of twist that imparts more spin on the bullet.


According to some calculations I have seen on the net, and some that I have done myself, the 24" 1-9 barrel should act almost like a 1-8 20" barrel when trying to stabilize the 77 grain bullet.


Many of the accounts of stabilization that are discussed here on AR15.com seem to deal usually with 77grain defensive loads usually coming out of carbine length barrels. A 16" barrel in 1-9 shouldn't stabilize the 77, while the 24" should. More RPM because of greater velocity going through the rifling....even though the twist rate is the same.


By all means, if I am wrong on any of this - please someone correct me.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 6:09:34 PM EST
600 YARD RANGE REPORT!!!!

Over the weekend I got to attend a Long Range Clinic with Kent Reeves of the US Palma Team.
The range was shot from the 600 yard line at Camp Butner NC. I have never done anything like this so I was excited. It was open to Juniors as well so I took my 3 boys. Saturday was half classtime, half range as well as today (Sunday) There was 15-25 MPH winds on Saturday and the wind would blow the hat off your head. I was fully convinced that you could not shoot in those conditions. Kent took the line first for "wind reading" exercise. After his estimated call for wind he shot, added 11/2 more minutes and he shot again... X ring!! He shot his 20 shots and hit 18 X rings in high winds!!! UNBELIEVABLE!! After that it was our turn. I was allready on paper so my first 2 sighters put me on the 10 ring... in the same wind!! Was pretty darn stoked. Finished out with a 192 (4x)! Not bad for a first time in high winds!! I just could not get over shooting in the wind.

Sunday, good conditions 5-10 wind, more class time on reading wind,mirage and technique. I shot in the first relay. Was really going to put the 77 SMK's to the test today in good to fair conditions.
First 8 shots after sighters were X ring!! They DO stabilize in a 24" 1 in 9 twist!! I scored a 198 (9 or 11 x) have too look at my score card again for x count. With more experience on estimating the value of wind change I am confident I can start shooting cleans. My 9 year old son with help from Pete Laberge (former palma team) scored an 194 (5x) and beat several adults!! For those that do not know the X ring is 6 inch circle at 600 yards, So that is 1 MOA!! I do not know the size of my X groups , just that they were in the 6 inch circle.

If you have never went to a HighPower shoot, You are Missing A LOT of fun.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 6:39:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 6:52:25 PM EST
Sounds like a great time!

There is nothing like lying prone looped up to your rifle, pounding a round 600 yards downrange, watching the target drop, and seeing it come back up with the spotter in the X-ring.......

He's right, if you have never attended a High Power match you are missing an awful lot of fun.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 2:07:31 AM EST
Right now I am shooting F-class untill I get the equipment for true highpower. Kent Reeves shooting open sights at that range just vlew my mind. I have got to try it.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 2:55:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 3:07:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By toxic:
They DO stabilize in a 24" 1 in 9 twist!! I.



As long as your pushing the 77grn. SMKs at close to max velocity in 24" 1/9 twist barrels you'll have no problems........, the problems of tight groups using 77s in 1/9 twist rifles comes generally in rifles of barrel lengths shorter than 20".

I been shooting them for years though my CR6724, (24" 1/9 twist Elite barrel).

This is not news, only to those who haven't been around for very long..........

Mike
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 4:20:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By toxic:
They DO stabilize in a 24" 1 in 9 twist!! I.



This is not news, only to those who haven't been around for very long..........

Mike



Thanks for the reply! I was told by so many that it would just not work... Most of them were probably range blasters or e-ar experts. Had a local guy who shoots 500 (all as fast as he can pull the trigger)rounds about every time I see him at the local range tell me why they would not work untill he saw me shoot them and then he hardly said anything else to me from then on.......
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 4:29:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By toxic:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By toxic:
They DO stabilize in a 24" 1 in 9 twist!! I.



This is not news, only to those who haven't been around for very long..........

Mike



Thanks for the reply! I was told by so many that it would just not work... Most of them were probably range blasters or e-ar experts. Had a local guy who shoots 500 (all as fast as he can pull the trigger)rounds about every time I see him at the local range tell me why they would not work untill he saw me shoot them and then he hardly said anything else to me from then on.......



I ran into this also, with plenty of fellas saying I was FOS, (we were shooting our 77grn. SMK load out to the 1000 yard line and still do on occassion). That is until I went out and shot an "F" class 600 yard match, that pretty well ended the debate about the 77grn. Matchkings in 24" 1/9 barrels.

Here's what we use exclusively in our CR-6724, 24" Accurized 1/9" rifles:

LOAD DATA:
Sierra 77grn, moly or naked, w/
24.0 grns. Accurate 2460, (Hot Load),
DO NOT PUSH, start low & work up - 2850fps + or - from 24" 1/9,
loaded into once fired Remington Brass
Remington 7.5 small rifle benchrest primers
These are loaded mag length - 2.250" + or -

Come-ups for 24" Colt Accurized Rifle (6724) w/ Leupold Vari-X III, 4.5x14 w/ turrets and Mil-Dots
100- zero
200-1 1/2 min
300-3 3/4 min
350-4 min
400-5 1/2 min
450-7 1/2 min
500-9 1/4 min
550-11 1/2 min
600-12 3/4 min
700-17 3/4 min
800-23 min
900- no target
1000-35 1/2 min (34-36 depending on humidity)

Mike

PS - please note that due to comments by those I highly respect on AR15.com like, aardvrk and x-man (two great guys I have shot NRA HighPower competitions with) that Accurate Arms powders have been known to have Lot to Lot variances in their powders. We buy our powder in 8# lots and always download and re-work up to our max load when opening a new 8# container. So far (w/ fingers crossed and knocking on wood) we have not run into a problem w/ the 2460 we shoot, but that doesn't stop us from erring on the side of caution....better to be safe than to find yourself pickin upper parts outta your teeth.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 4:46:12 AM EST
Thanks for all the info!! I used 24.5 grains of Varget , Win primers and federal Match primers. At 23.5 grains I get 2700 FPS so I bumped up to 24.5 with no pressure signs. Have not chrono'd the 24.5 yet. Your comeups are real close to mine. I had to use 15 minutes at 600 yards. With the wind we were using about 5 minutes right windage I need more work on the value of wind changes, IS that 1 minute change or 2? Then I find out when I pull the trigger
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 5:02:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 5:06:45 AM EST
Good shooting.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 5:07:11 AM EST
I bumped it up for velocity. I had great 100 yard accuracy with 23.5 but was wanting all the speed I could get to make sure they would do 600 stable. When I get to go back for a practice session where I can mark targets for groups I will shoot some 23.5. I guess I got lucky on that load development because it seemed to work real well.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 5:50:44 AM EST
Damn fine shooting there! I'd shit a gold brick if I could put 10 rounds into that size hole at 100 yards. My hats off to you sir.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 5:58:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By IchWarrior:
I must see your rifle, stat!

And whats your 50 grain V-Max load? Mine never turned out that good, granted I was using a progressive to build the load (only way to sustain the habit) between Tac-Shot and H335 I couldnt find anything really impressive...




Ich,

Another powder you might try is H322. I used that with my stock DPMS 16" A2 and got pretty good results. I don't have a Wilson SS barrel or any other enhanced parts. This was shot from a bipod as well, so anything that does under 1 MoA with regularity is great for my rifle.

Here's the best load from that day.
48F.
5-10 MPH wind.
Raining, so 100% humidity.
No velocity due to rain.



Nothing close to toxic's remarkable results but it seemed pretty consistant and a better barrel may be able to improve the results.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 6:33:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 5:56:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By toxic:

Originally Posted By Sinister:

Something that may help is a Tubb Carrier Weight System (which will help delay bolt carrier group movement and give you a little better brass life).



Earlier in the post I wrote that I already have a carrier weight similar to Tubb's. It is not as heavy (3 oz's) but it does help from banging the brass and makes the cycling less violent. I am going to up the powder some and try it. Here is a pic of the rifle. Pretty plain looking except for the LONG barrel and grip.
img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/toxicar/AR018.jpg



WOW, that's a good shooting rifle.

Question - Doesn't it bug you to have the scope bell shoved all the way back in your face like that? That would be resting on my cornea.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 2:09:11 PM EST
I do not shoot way up on the rifle, especially when bagged in or in the prone for F-class. The less of me on the rifle, the better, less pulse bounce etc. If I have to lean my head forward that is unnatural aim for me and that means muscle tension, and that means movement. Hope that makes sense.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 3:00:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Here's what we use exclusively in our CR-6724, 24" Accurized 1/9" rifles:




Heya Mr. wilson- thanks for the info. Do you know the measurements on your barrels profile? can you post it and what you think of it's weight/ balance for prone/ long range use?

thanks
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 3:04:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/15/2005 3:05:24 PM EST by danonly]

Originally Posted By toxic:
600 YARD RANGE REPORT!!!!

If you have never went to a HighPower shoot, You are Missing A LOT of fun.



Oh yeah- sounds like you did well for your first time out at 600. doubtless you have good technique and the coaches at the clinic helped you bring it all together for a very respectable showing. goodjob

Link Posted: 3/18/2005 6:09:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By danonly:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Here's what we use exclusively in our CR-6724, 24" Accurized 1/9" rifles:




Heya Mr. wilson- thanks for the info. Do you know the measurements on your barrels profile? can you post it and what you think of it's weight/ balance for prone/ long range use?

thanks



Mr. Wilson?
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