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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 7/19/2003 2:15:33 AM EDT
Does anyone know if a company makes a 5.7 x 28 upper for a AR-15
www.fnmfg.com/lawenf/ss190/ss190.htm
THanx
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 2:21:58 AM EDT
I don't see why someone couldn't make one, unless the cartridge is copyrighted. However, i don't see FN making one anytime soon... from their webpage: "(Law Enforcement agencies only- 5.7 x 28 caliber weapons are not available to the general public)"
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 12:55:04 PM EDT
how can the gov. restrict a caliber (are you sure thats an american law?) and what about the caliber would allow it to have such great potential for exile?
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 1:28:23 PM EDT
Ammo for sale in our own EE [:D] [url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=89&t=159506&w=searchPop[/url]
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 3:08:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ningonango: how can the gov. restrict a caliber
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1.) Money. If the creator of the particular load is doing big business with the government, and wishes to continue doing so, the government could lean on them to keep the information to themselves. 2.) Non-dislosure agreement. If the government contracted a company to create a load, and bound them by contract from sharing the information. 3.) Classification. Classify it as a destructive device and let BATFE do the dirty work.
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 4:07:02 PM EDT
Ernie at SOCOM MFG has them I saw them at Knob Creek last year.
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 5:35:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2003 5:40:25 PM EDT by AZYoungGun]
Ningo, the round supposedly can pierce Level IIA Kevlar with the Steel Trama plate (IIRC) at 200 yards. It may be without the plate, but the rest is fact. I'm looking for the site. http://www.fnmfg.com/lawenf/ss190/ss190.htm This states 48 layers, but no distance. http://www.sabredefence.com/weapons/ammo.shtml This states 200 yards. http://remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/data/concept.htm This states that it can penetrate Level III out to 200 yards. Go figure. EDIT: Ah, just noticed the link you posted contains the Level IIIA info further to the bottom. Sorry if you already knew all of this. [XX(]
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 8:05:03 PM EDT
Contact Kurt. i'm sure he can work on an upper in that caliber for you: [url]http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/page/page/8932.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 7:04:49 PM EDT
As to the question, "can it be done?", sure. There are some points to consider: 1 - ammo availability. Those folks that have it tend to ask a lot for it. The round with the true penetrator core is considered AP and as such, most sales I have seen have been restricted to dealers, LEO and Military. That said, you can always find a place to buy it, as the post in EE shows. 2 - magazines. This round was designed for the P-90 and FN57. Neither magazine will work in the AR, and the round itself is too small to work in un-modified AR mags. Load more than 10 and the little boogers come spraying out if you set the mag down hard on a table. 3 - better alternatives. The 5.7x28 is not that great of a round and not that novel, either. The BULLET is what makes its performance more attractive, but the 223 itself has higher velocity. If you want to scale down the AR and the 223, I would HIGHLY recommend the 22/30 Carbine, AKA 5.7 MMJ or Johnson Spitfire. Performance and dimensions are REMARKABLY close to those of the 5.7x28, reamers brass and dies are available (locally the M-1 carbine is made in this caliber) and Olympics new 30 Carbine kits that allow the AR to accept M-1 Carbine mags would make this a simple upper swap. And yes, Kurt could build that upper for you [;)] I would go with the 22/30 Carbine, if not because the FN P-90 seems to be simply copied from the Hill system subgun after Mr Hill passed away (he offered it to FN, but they refused it when he did) M
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 9:23:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 10:24:31 PM EDT
The 5.7 is an INCREDIBLE handgun caliber...Magazine capacities can exceed 20 rounds, without any added bulk. However i've yet to see it for sale for civilians. If you want that caliber bad enough, i'd advise against an AR upper for it, but the Five-Seven pistol by FN...very very nice very compact, NO recoil.
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 4:01:17 AM EDT
Get a Rugar in 22 Mag.
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 5:37:02 AM EDT
MartytW: When was the 22/30 Carbine or 5.7 MMJ introduced?
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 5:45:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lockedon: The 5.7 is an INCREDIBLE handgun caliber...
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Yeah incredibly stupid. Terminal performance similar to a .22LR, what is the point?
Magazine capacities can exceed 20 rounds, without any added bulk.
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Glock 17 with a +4 magazine extension doesn't add much but gives you over 20 rounds of a much more effective caliber. But magazine capacity isn't everything - especially with a weapon as weak as a handgun. I'd rather have a 1911 with a 7 round magazine than a 20 round magazine of the 5.7x28.
very very nice very compact, NO recoil.
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Just like those .22LR pistols I see.... [;)]
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 8:38:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By blikbok: MartytW: When was the 22/30 Carbine or 5.7 MMJ introduced?
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From "Cartridges of the World" 8th Ed. "This cartridge, also known as the 5.7mm Johnson or .22 Spitfire, was introduced in [b]1963[/b] for the Johnson Guns, Inc. alteration of the U.S. M1 Carbine." It is preceded by the other true 22 caliber gem, the .22 K-Hornet, dating back to [b]1940[/b]. The 5.7x28 simply follows FAR behind an illustrious set of predecessors. Hey, Troy and I agree! [;)] Um, if you want 20+ rounds to penetrate a vest without added bulk, there are other ways to go. Try loading the 7.62x25 Tok with the 223 caliber sabot to 1.23" and putting those in your 9x23 double stack 1911 ..... Marty
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 10:16:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest: Yeah incredibly stupid.
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LOL, what are you? in kindergarden? [;)]
Terminal performance similar to a .22LR, what is the point?
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They can penetrate armor, and are quite destrutive...I don't remember the details anymore though Yeah well, glock sucks
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 10:25:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2003 10:49:29 PM EDT by SMGLee]
FN is not bring in a FiveseveN model called the LOM, the LOM is basically the law enforcement Officer model with some changes from the Tactical model. The gun will come with ten round magazines, the sights are adjustable and the laser etched serial numbers are no longer, it has a metal plate afixed tot he bottom of the lower much like a Glock. The gun available to LEO and what LEO do with the gun after taking possion is up to him. This means a LEO can legally sale his FiveseveN to a civilain since it have a ten round magazine and the practice ammo manufactured by Winchest is around 400 dollars a case of thousand. The FiveseveN i had the chance to shoot had a very flat trijectory, I was hitting a 12" metal dong at 100 yard easy with out any lift for elevation. I can basically do the same thing with a G35 using a bar-sto barrel chambered for 357SIG. but the recoil is a lot less. as far as wound effect, there is suppose to be a new round design that yield some impressive wound channel, but that is forbidden for civilian ownership. a civilain basically can have the practice round which will travel at 22-2300fps out of the pistol. There are four types: the SS190 ball round or duty, the T194 hollow point, the tracer and the subsonic. they are also developing a blank, a frangible, a monoblock and a sabot round. the SS190 has two cores, first a steel then an aluminum wrapped in a steel jacket. The hollow point round does not have the forward steel insert. The tracer has ignition material, tracer media and the steel penetrator. The Sb193 is a 55 grains FMJBT. FN states the SS190 transfers nearly all its energy to the target on impact, even at close range. The bullet will tumble after approximately 2 inches of travel in soft body tissues causing large wound cavity and quick incapacitation. effective range of the 5.7 is about 200m. Just some info for any one who cares.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:38:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SMGLee: The FiveseveN i had the chance to shoot had a very flat trijectory, I was hitting a 12" metal dong at 100 yard easy with out any lift for elevation.
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I can do the same thing with my 50 year old CZ-52... Fun handgun, low recoil, flat trajectory, terminally useless.
FN states the SS190 transfers nearly all its energy to the target on impact, even at close range. The bullet will tumble after approximately 2 inches of travel in soft body tissues causing large wound cavity and quick incapacitation. effective range of the 5.7 is about 200m.
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FN states a lot of stuff - but there is more than enough evidence to show they are blowing smoke. On another forum Dr. Roberts describes his results with 5.7 and lists several research papers on the subject (showing its pathetic terminal performance). He receommends these papers on the subject: --Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000. --Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991. --Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997. --FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation. --Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001. --Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998. --Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press. He sums it up with this:
The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......
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This is the "quite destructive" that Lockedon refers to - HA!
Posted by SMGLee: ...there is suppose to be a new round design that yield some impressive wound channel, but that is forbidden for civilian ownership...
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Do you have a designation for this round? I have not seen any info on it - nor any independant testing (If anyone knows of any and can share please let me know).
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 8:03:37 AM EDT
One of our PDs got a few of the P90 to go with their MP5 variants. They have not used on in an officer involved shooting yet, so no street results. It is a very cool gun to shoot. I work for the county, so I have not fired the PD owned gun, but a dealers sample from out of town a couple of times. My local dealer has one waiting on paperwork right now. It serves a niche, as a PDW. Strap it to a pilot or vehicle crew members leg and go to town. I would rather have a short barreled select fire .223 as a general purpose weapon, but the P90 would get the job done. The ballistics put it as a little hotter than a .22 WMR like a CCI TNT at ~2200fps for a 30gr. The 5.7x28 is ~2300fps for a 31gr. I have a level IIIA vest that is six years old next month so we have been talking about doing some tests ith it wrapped around a slab of ribs and a brisket.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 8:35:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 8:45:40 AM EDT by SMGLee]
Originally Posted By Forest: I can do the same thing with my 50 year old CZ-52... Fun handgun, low recoil, flat trajectory, terminally useless.
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That is why I also stated my Glock 35 with a 357SIG barrel would do the same thing, as you have indicated, I am also not to impress with the 5.7, but I am just passing along some info. I think the 5.7 is a military cartridge for rear support team who would like to carry a light weight weapon but still capable of defeating body armor at close to mid range. the P90 is a good design steam from that concept and so is the new HK MP7, out side of the military circle, I really don't see any need for this type of caliber other then the cool and got to have factor. Lots of the test listed are performed under the older cartridge with the lighter weight, the new steel with aluminum core bullet are heavier and suppose to yield better result. I have seen test with the older cartridge that are just not acceptable. the newer hp, and heavier 55gr sb193 are some additional improvements made in the past year to gain more acceptance with law enforcement agency. as far as I am concern, the best SMG for LE use would be a HK MP5/40A3 with a GemTech can. that my friend is almost heaven. I will try to call my friend at FN to find out the designation of that round.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 11:57:48 AM EDT
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