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Posted: 2/23/2006 3:15:13 PM EDT
From the ammo oracle:

"Fact: Evidence increasingly shows that 5.56 FMJ rounds like M193 and M855 are not the over-penetration risk they have often been though of as. In interior wall tests, 5.56 rounds have less wounding potential after wall strikes than any common 9mm or above handgun ammunition and/or 00 Buck shotgun loads."

Is this true? This means using a 5.56 rifle for HD is safer for the neighbors than 12gauge or a puny 9mm pistol???? Sounds good to me but I need more convincing!

Why would one choose a 9mm or 12ga for HD if this is the case? I would assume a hit from 5.56 at household distances would be just as damaging as a 12 ga buckshot from the same distance.

thanks, please excuse my ignorance.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 4:52:39 PM EDT
Lig,

you ain't ignorant. It's a good question.

Whole buncha variable. Keep all in mind. Multi-task.

You gotta assess your threats. Take distance for example--you sure as hell ain't gonna use a scattergun for HD if your home is out "bare naked" on a 200 acre spread and the road is 2000' away where the threat is.

My .02 worth? I keep me a 9mm in the bedroom nitestand; the old 12 ga/buckshot behind the kitchen cupboard, and the AR15 in the garage.

"A man's got to know his limits." ---"Dirty" Harry Callahan---

Link Posted: 2/23/2006 7:08:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ligament:
From the ammo oracle:

"Fact: Evidence increasingly shows that 5.56 FMJ rounds like M193 and M855 are not the over-penetration risk they have often been though of as. In interior wall tests, 5.56 rounds have less wounding potential after wall strikes than any common 9mm or above handgun ammunition and/or 00 Buck shotgun loads."

Is this true? yesThis means using a 5.56 rifle for HD is safer for the neighbors than 12gauge or a puny 9mm pistol???? Yes againSounds good to me but I need more convincing!basiclly tests show that a pistol round/buckshot/ect will penetraite farther through material like walls then the 223 rd. The hollow point of most SD pistol ammo normally doesn't expand so it acts like a FMJ which plows through the walls and keeps going. The light 223 round sheds velocity quickly and doesn;t go as far. There is a lot on the topic so look around a bit

Why would one choose a 9mm or 12ga for HD if this is the case? I would assume a hit from 5.56 at household distances would be just as damaging as a 12 ga buckshot from the same distance. when your talking about fighting in a room size, a pistol is handy for movement as where the shotgun or Ar is a bit long for that. Actually, a 12 gage with buck doesn;t have much of a pattern at 7 feet but if hit, the 12 gage will be more devasting to the bad guy then the 223


thanks, please excuse my ignorance.

Link Posted: 2/23/2006 7:16:53 PM EDT
legally speaking, if your threat is 2000 feet away, it isn't really a threat.


the key to avoiding OP is to hit your target. a 9mm isn't going to sail through a BG and go through walls--neither is buckshot. now missing is another story.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 8:09:47 PM EDT
You might want to check out the Box of Truth. Old_Painless has done some dandy tests the results answering your questions. m_s
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 7:36:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ohio47Woodsman:
Lig,

My .02 worth? I keep me a 9mm in the bedroom nitestand; the old 12 ga/buckshot behind the kitchen cupboard, and the AR15 in the garage.

"A man's got to know his limits." ---"Dirty" Harry Callahan---




Thats what I keep saying, just can't swing a long gun as easily as a handgun around doorways, hallways, sm. rooms, etc. I will have a handgunb in each hand that way if he surprises me and wacks one arm I'm gonna git'em with the other!!! Especially if your in bed and he is at close range.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 7:49:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VARminator:

Originally Posted By Ohio47Woodsman:
Lig,

My .02 worth? I keep me a 9mm in the bedroom nitestand; the old 12 ga/buckshot behind the kitchen cupboard, and the AR15 in the garage.

"A man's got to know his limits." ---"Dirty" Harry Callahan---




Thats what I keep saying, just can't swing a long gun as easily as a handgun around doorways, hallways, sm. rooms, etc. I will have a handgunb in each hand that way if he surprises me and wacks one arm I'm gonna git'em with the other!!! Especially if your in bed and he is at close range.



The old two gun approach. I like it.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 7:55:12 AM EDT
Bird shot and a Coach gun is all you need!
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 8:26:32 AM EDT
Is that one of them really short shotguns for riding shotgun? Well those might be short enough to swing in the house but don't know if its legal here in MA.

Yosemite "Two Gun" Sam
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 10:10:33 AM EDT
AOW shotgun with #4 low power buckshot will do the job. I also keep a .45 handy in case 5 #4s are not enough.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 10:28:31 AM EDT
12 gauge w/ 00 buck is hard to beat IMO.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 11:02:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VARminator:
Is that one of them really short shotguns for riding shotgun? Well those might be short enough to swing in the house but don't know if its legal here in MA.

Yosemite "Two Gun" Sam



Unless Mass law is more stringent than Federal law, any shotgun with a barrel measuring 18" or longer is legal without needed any ATF peprwork.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 11:02:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 11:04:52 AM EDT by SWO_daddy]

Originally Posted By NotoriousSEG:
legally speaking, if your threat is 2000 feet away, it isn't really a threat..


Until they start shooting at you or your house.

ETA: Never mind. That's 667 yards. Unless they and you are both very competent riflemen, chances of either hitting anything are slim to none.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 12:04:35 PM EDT
it depends on your house and if there is anyone liveing with you!

all kinds of factors?

also wich one you can shoot the best!

I like them all!

but if I had the room and type of house I would go with a 12ga short tube 18 at the most or a m4 at the very longest!

right now just my AW S&W38spl and P229 40s&w some times a 6906! depends
My rifle/shotgun are close buy!
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 12:05:53 PM EDT
+1 on #4Buck love it alot!!
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 1:22:21 PM EDT
first turn the dog loose on them.... :D


then it don't matter what you shoot em with while they are down

seriously,

handguns and short brld shotguns are USUALLY easier to navigate a house with.

Each can be good and penetrate less but you have to use the appropriate ammo in each, same with the 5.56.

personally, if I know the badguy is on the other side of whatever (wall, couch, chair, lamp etc...), I will shoot through it to get him, so a little penetration is not a bad thing!
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:46:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By colt100:

Originally Posted By Ligament:
From the ammo oracle:

"Fact: Evidence increasingly shows that 5.56 FMJ rounds like M193 and M855 are not the over-penetration risk they have often been though of as. In interior wall tests, 5.56 rounds have less wounding potential after wall strikes than any common 9mm or above handgun ammunition and/or 00 Buck shotgun loads."

Is this true? yesThis means using a 5.56 rifle for HD is safer for the neighbors than 12gauge or a puny 9mm pistol???? Yes againSounds good to me but I need more convincing!basiclly tests show that a pistol round/buckshot/ect will penetraite farther through material like walls then the 223 rd. The hollow point of most SD pistol ammo normally doesn't expand so it acts like a FMJ which plows through the walls and keeps going. The light 223 round sheds velocity quickly and doesn;t go as far. There is a lot on the topic so look around a bit

Why would one choose a 9mm or 12ga for HD if this is the case? I would assume a hit from 5.56 at household distances would be just as damaging as a 12 ga buckshot from the same distance. when your talking about fighting in a room size, a pistol is handy for movement as where the shotgun or Ar is a bit long for that. Actually, a 12 gage with buck doesn;t have much of a pattern at 7 feet but if hit, the 12 gage will be more devasting to the bad guy then the 223


thanks, please excuse my ignorance.




please read all of the tests at
www.theboxotruth.com/

especially,
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
and
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm
and
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
and
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12.htm
and
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm


ar-jedi

Link Posted: 2/24/2006 9:21:55 PM EDT
The box of truth tests do not seem to correlate with the FBI information given in the ammo oracle. Can sombody clarify this for me? thanks.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 7:07:28 AM EDT
in summary:

one shot of 12 gauge buckshot will trump (in terms of tissue destroyed) the best round that a .223/5.56 AR-15 can manage.

The AR allows for less recoil and quicker follow-up shots, so a lot of people go that route. Buckshot does risk plowing through walls and such more than most .223 bullets, so that's another consideration.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 7:59:33 AM EDT
I would like to read the original FBI studies on this topic. Where can I find them? Thanks.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 8:05:21 AM EDT
sorry but ill stick with my 12 ga, its one thing if the thief stands his ground but 90% of the time its dark and he will run upon being noticed. The sound of a good 12ga pump and reliability of hitting a moving target without unloading the mag into my house just works for me, In the end its personal preference, which makes you feel more secure and which you are more comfortable handling in said situation
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 8:47:15 AM EDT
FWIW, I used to plan for 1 intruder and did not consider jamming. From watching the news, there seems to be an increase in gangs and BGs very high on drugs. So, I recently have been upgrading my home defense arms. Decided to get 2 Glocks with 33 round mags. In test firing of about 50 rounds of Win. FMJ I had one round jam. I decided if I had only 1 gun I wanted a revolver. I looked at multiple options. I found a 12 gauge shotgun just has too much recoil for me. I also find a pump is too slow to fire multiple rounds and has too few rounds.

So I decided on .357 revolvers where I have only 1 gun. In my "safe" room I have an AR rifle, an AR pistol, and the 2 Glocks.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 8:48:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ligament:
I would like to read the original FBI studies on this topic. Where can I find them? Thanks.



what specifically? tissue destruction? overpenetration risk through walls, etc?
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 9:58:04 AM EDT
Overpenetration issues through walls. thanks.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:16:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CrotalusCo:
sorry but ill stick with my 12 ga, its one thing if the thief stands his ground but 90% of the time its dark and he will run upon being noticed. The sound of a good 12ga pump and reliability of hitting a moving target without unloading the mag into my house just works for me, In the end its personal preference, which makes you feel more secure and which you are more comfortable handling in said situation



movie BS.

whether he's going to run or not depends on what he's looking for, how badly he needs it and what he's got pumping through his blood. You rack a shotgun to close to the guy, he might jump you. He might be bigger and you might end up the loser.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:51:22 AM EDT
AND DONT FORGET!!!

Hide back up Rifle?Shotgun/Pistol in the bath room in case you are in the shower or takeing a shit! Matter of fact hide them every place!

Im jokeing so dont go crazy!
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 10:52:51 AM EDT
ar-jedi, while his findings are read worthy, I believe that I would place more credibility on the FBI tests then his. Not saying he is wrong, but I, personally will believe the FBI testing.

Besides, i think that there is too much talk about the penetraition issue all the time. If most people will just pick a known good preforming SD load and worry about ther shot placement and target isolation, I think this becomes a moot point.

I'll take my chanches that a bullet will strike a neighbor after passing through my house, through theirs and just happenes to strike them, espically when someone is in my home trying to kill me. Stopping him from killing me is more important then worrying about what a fired round may do as striking someone in a house next door is possible but not likely.

Of course this is MHO. Flame suit on.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 11:06:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_sparkle:
You might want to check out the Box of Truth. Old_Painless has done some dandy tests the results answering your questions. m_s



No thats the last place to check, OP will be the first one to tell you that these tests are in no way scientific in set up or nature. They really don't show all that well what can happen. Though they are cool to check out just becuase they are cool little experiments.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:06:39 PM EDT
Also always try to have cell phone close and call 911 first if possible
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 5:37:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 11:42:43 AM EDT
SWO_daddy - small error in your post re: barrel length (Unless Mass law is more stringent than Federal law, any shotgun with a barrel measuring 18" or longer is legal without needed any ATF peprwork.) It ALSO requires a minimum overall length of 26 inches. put a pistol grip on many shotguns and you'll be under 26 inches, that's bad.

CrotalusCo - Unless you have an awfully big house, you have very little increased probability of hitting a moving target (The sound of a good 12ga pump and reliability of hitting a moving target without unloading the mag into my house just works for me) with a shot gun than you do with an AR. Take that shotgun out and pattern it at typical indoor distances. The pattern isn't gonna open up that much.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 12:07:44 PM EDT
I'm the original poster.

I fully understand that no round is safe EVER regardless of going through a wall. The question was whether 5.56 was safER than 12ga or 9mm in a HD situation. It seems that it is, and that the damage to a perp from a 5.56 will likely be just as significant as a 12ga at HD distances. I wonder why people don't use the 5.56 more often...seems like a better HD option (unless you WANT barrier/cover penetration).
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 2:01:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ligament:
I wonder why people don't use the 5.56 more often...seems like a better HD option (unless you WANT barrier/cover penetration).



just a couple of thoughts...

-you can pick up a pump 12 ga for ~$200, while a tricked out M4 might cost $2,000

-there are quite a few people who really do have the mindset that they'll just rack the slide on grandpappy's 870 and that'll scare off a burglar

-some people just don't do their homework and believe a lot of bad information and anecdotal evidence that they overhear in gunshops and read online
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 7:14:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 7:55:38 PM EDT
A 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 or 000 buckshot is the most effective clost quarters weapon.
1 000 buckshot shell is rougly equivalent to a 9 round burst from a 9mm SMG, with the advantage of a tighter pattern and simultaneous hits. Every action has an equal or greater reaction....A weapons recoil is very close to how much force is distributed on the target after being shot. 9mm/5.56 carbines have negligible recoil. A 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 3 inch 000 buckshot has an excessive amount of recoil and thus an incredible amount of force imparted on the target. A handgun is the least effective choice for a HD weapon. Long weapons are easier to shoot accuratly and usually shot more powerful ammunition, with the exception of a 9mm SMG. Handguns are advantageous because they are very small and compact while a certain amount of practice/training is required to manuver with a long arm in a CQB environment. Handguns don't

have nearly the one shot stop capability of a shotgun/rifle and shot placement is much more challenging. A 5.56 carbine is a very effective HD weapon. A wide assortment of effective and highly lethal rounds exist and there is a reduced risk of collateral damage. Defensive rounds are designed to fragment early/rapidly and this is exactly what happens when the round strikes a wall or door. Instead of a 9mm bullet which has nearly all of its mass retained, there will be a shower of fragments. This is still lethal and dangerous but the risk of collateral damage is less than that of a handgun/shotgun. As Troy said, there are no "safe" duty loads, but its possible to minimize the risk with proper ammunition selection. FMJ 5.56 rounds would be the worst choice as the collateral damage risk is increased and more effective rounds exist. A 12 gauge shotgun represents the best choice for a HD weapon. A 18.5 inch shotgun with a pistol grip or pistol grip stock like a Speed Feed IV is compact enough to manuver in confined areas while maintaining

enough stopping power to defeat the threat. Larger buckshot is the most effective choice but carries a large risk of collateral damage. Birdshot typically will not penetrate deeply enough to cause immediate mortal wounds. A compromise between lethality and safety must be made. Shot must have enough mass to adequately penetrate the torso but not so much mass that it remains dangerous after passing through barriers. With the exception of 1 buck, most of the buckshots are to dangerous to be used a HD load. I personally advocate and use "goose" loads for HD. I keep

Federal 2 3/4 BBB in my 870 Police Magnum. BB-BBB-T-F have enough mass to penetrate deeply enough to cause serious damage but don't have the mass of 000 buckshot to penetrate walls/doors and remain dangerous. Steel shot also doesn't penetrate as well as lead, making reducing the collateral damage potential further. For those who can not or prefer not to use steel because of its short comings, Bismuth or Tungston shot exists which is denser than lead and has superior penetration. I recently bought a few boxes of 2 3/4 T Hevi Shot *Dead Coyote* which I may be using as my HD load as soon as I can do some testing with it. The 12 gauge shotgun is the most effective close quarters weapon availible. Granted, you must use what you have but a Mossberg 500 persuader can be had for around 200.00
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 8:13:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 9:37:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Billmanweh:

-there are quite a few people who really do have the mindset that they'll just rack the slide on grandpappy's 870 and that'll scare off a burglar



[begin sarcasm] So you mean that I cannot just walk around the house racking my 870 and expect to find the dope fiend cowered in a corner in a puddle of his own urine? [/end sarcasm]

Actually, I can't believe how many people actually believe that BS and think that just by racking the pump they will scare off a criminal.

Now, I was once told by a police officer that a group of thugs broke into the house of an older man, and after the first thug took some 00 Buck to the chest, his partners in crime hauled ass. The officer also stated that this type of thing happens quite often because the criminals go into self preservation mode after watching one of their partners in crime go down from a little lead poisoning. I wonder if that story was complete and utter BS too?
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 7:40:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Billmanweh:

Originally Posted By Ligament:
I wonder why people don't use the 5.56 more often...seems like a better HD option (unless you WANT barrier/cover penetration).



-you can pick up a pump 12 ga for ~$200, while a tricked out M4 might cost $2,000



Sort of a twist on what you were saying, but that's one key for me. A smart burglar will ransack my house when I'm NOT home. I'd rather him cart off my $300 12-gauge (granted, it's now got a surefire forend on it, doubling its value) instead of my AR. The black rifle stays locked up, the 12 gauge stays under the bed.

Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:28:14 PM EDT
000 Buckshot isn't similar in size to a 9mm bullet? So, wouldn't a hit from one shell be similar to a 9 round burst from a 9mm SMG? Obviously, the stories of a 1911 in .45 ACP knocking people off thier feet isn't possible, as physics don't allow for this scenario. I was simply saying that a weapons recoil is a good indication of how much force is imparted on the target. If a shotgun doesn't knock me off my feet when I shoot it, its not going to knock someone off thier feet when they get hit with it. Shotguns deliever an incredible amount of force and the blunt trauma can be lethal even if you are wearing a ballistic vest. I didn't mean to suggest that 5.56 is an inferior defensive round, which it most certainly is not. While its very effective, especially when the proper ammunition is used, I just can't see how its more effective the a properly loaded 12 gauge shotgun. Shotguns allow for a greater margin of error in aiming and create an increased probability of scoring a lethal hit.
Im not sure which part of my statement you had a problem with, Troy. My point was that one 000 buckshot pellet is similar in size to 1 9mm bullet. My Winchester 000 buckshot has 9 pellets per shell which roughly equals a 9 round burst from a 9mm SMG. Granted, the 9mm has more mass and the ability expand, so performance isn't identical, but similar as I suggested. I didn't write the laws of physics, I am just bound by them....as are all of us. The recoil of the weapon roughly translates into how much force is imparted on the target.
Troy, im not trying to argue with you or be a prick as I respect your knowledge but maybe you misunderstood something in my initial post and I can clearify. If I have it wrong, by all means help me get it right, I am always interested to learn something new.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:53:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ryno_the_wyno:
The recoil of the weapon roughly translates into how much force is imparted on the target.



but are you making the leap and saying that more force/recoil equals greater wounding?
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 11:06:39 PM EDT
I use a 9mm rifle. Low noise. I can take a head shot on some one if the have my wife or kid in front of them. 223 inside a house loud than hell . at 7 yard with a ar15 you have to aim at there head to hit there chest. a shotgun works great unless they have you wife or kid in front of them. A 9mm rifle up close with the right load is = to a 357 pistol and that is all I need. my rifle use glock 33rd mags.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:27:22 PM EDT
I didn't mean to imply that more force equals greater lethality. I think I made my case about the shotguns lethality when I compared 000buckshot with 9 rounds from a 9mm SMG. I was simply saying that out of the .223 and 9mm the 12gauge shotgun imparts the most force onto the target. Im not necessarily talking about muzzle energy, but actual "force" when the pattern hits the target. My 870 Pmax shooting 2 3/4 000 buckshot has an incredible amount of recoil and this recoil is an indication of how it might feel and how much force is imparted when the pattern strikes a target. This is physics. There are lots of urban myths about how a 1911 .45 ACP knocked Nazis right out of thier boots....nope. A shotgun could possibly knock someone off thier feet, especially if they are already unbalanced....not from the wound necessarily, but from the force of the impact which would be considerable. It would be difficult to differentiate between falling from a head shot or being knocked over but shotguns have a great amount of recoil and the possibility exists. My point was to demonstrate that based on the weapons recoil, a shotgun distributes an incredible amount of force on a target but this "force" doesn't necessarily equal increased killing power.
Sorry for any confusion.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 10:45:05 PM EDT
I guess I'm still not completely clear. You're not making the assumption that more recoil equals more lethal, but you keep going back to the recoil thing. You want the highest recoiling firearm possible?

I also don't know that I would depend on the shotgun working by knocking someone off their feet. You keep making the comparison of the recoil and the force exerted, but it's not knocking you off your feet when you fire, right?
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 5:04:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunz4me:

Originally Posted By Billmanweh:

-there are quite a few people who really do have the mindset that they'll just rack the slide on grandpappy's 870 and that'll scare off a burglar



Actually, I can't believe how many people actually believe that BS and think that just by racking the pump they will scare off a criminal.




It is NOT BS, as I have in fact on two occasions avoided further violence by merely racking a shell into the chamber of my Remington 870.

Once at a lake, another dog attacked my pair of hounds. I was trying to separate the animals, when the other dog owner walked up and loudly told his dog "Get him boy" as encouragement to continue the fight. Paladin walked to his jeep, pulled out my "crowd pleaser", and racked the action. Mr. Felony Dog Fighting ahole remarked "I have a gun in my truck too". I replied, "You can't outrun buckshot". He FINALLY grabbed his dog and left.

A few years ago our dog started going crazy barking at about 3 am. Looking out the front door peep I saw a large man standing in the dark. He was inside my front gated patio area. I racked the 870 from my side of the dead bolted front door, and stated gruffly that 3 am was too late for visitors. He DID depart, and was arrested several weeks later for a string of "hot prowl" burglaries. After getting a good look at him when he walked away (side window has a great street light) it surprised me later when his picture was in the paper. Our news had never warned the public about his rash of crimes until AFTER he was arrested.

So IME, twice I have actually used the "rack 'em" method of achieving compliance WITHOUT gunfire. There are other episodes, but these are two I recall well.

That said, my 12 gauge throws 20 #1 buck pellets(0.30 cal.) into a 12 to 14 inch circle at 10 yards. There is no where inside my residence where a longer shot would be possible. So under almost any circumstances, all pellets will hit a COM target. Five rounds of #1 buck is 100 pellets in about 5 seconds. It would take an AR user over 3 entire 30 rounds magazines to put that much ventilation into a subject...

Paladin
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 3:55:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 5:47:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Neo1:

So I decided on .357 revolvers where I have only 1 gun. In my "safe" room I have an AR rifle, an AR pistol, and the 2 Glocks.




Just make sure the cylinder pin (if a Smith type) is locktighted in place. When that comes loose and jams up a revolver it is a royal bitch to unjam. I can unjam a stuck 1911 blindfolded, one needs tools to unjam a stuck S&W, Taurus Revolver etc.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 7:00:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Simply saying "000 Buck is like 8 9mm's" seems to imply that the wound would the the same as being shot by a 9mm 8 times.

Saying such is disingenuous because most people are carrying JHP bullets that cause much larger wounds than FMJs.

Shotguns certainly have a psychological effect on many people, but you never know who is going to fear them and who isn't. Never count on the sound/appearance of a gun to work as a deterrent. It won't always work, and thus can't be counted on to do so.

Whatever weapon you choose for home defense, the important thing is that you understand that weapon's strengths and weaknesses (and don't kid yourself about either), and that you incorporate those facts into your overall crisis-response plan.

You DO have a crisis-response plan, that you and your family/household drill on, right?

-Troy



I was just making a numbers comparison, and not trying to imply one was better than the other. My plan is that the sound of the weapon being charged will be accompanied by a view of the business end. The 870 is stored with #1 buckshot, slugs, and #4 birdshot. Buckshot for anti-personel, slugs for defeating cover, and birdshot for four legged varmints. As stated earlier, I only need to rely on the shotgun out to a maximum of 10 yards, and feel adequately armed.

An important point about a pump shotgun as a "go to" in my household planning is that my wife DOES know how to work the 870, and has refused to get familiar with Ar's. The 870 will be used as an immediate action weapon, and if warranted or time allows a loaded 5.56 carbine is available in my bedroom closet cabinet.

Paladin
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 8:04:55 PM EDT
12 gauge behind the door,
.40 S&W in the closest safe
AR down the hall in the "gun room".

I also believe in the power of the 12 ga. I have a Knoxx stock so it recoils like a semi-auto. Easily manageable for a person my size. I also use plain jane 2 3/4" 00 Buck. No need for magnum field loads in a house.

I also live alone with no one to protect except for myself.

I live on a postage stamp of a lot, so everything would be close range.

While I currently using a basic Mossberg 500, I'm leaning to a bit nicer 870 with a light + ghost rings. Granted, at that distance, it's more of a point and shoot for me than a slower aim (I'm not talking about the Hollywood shotgun spread. I'm talking about point shooting, just like with pistols)

However, if I ended up moving out to 6-7 acres, the rifle would be a go-to.

So, at that point, the answer to the question becomes, "depends on the situation". For interior stuff 12 Gauge would be very effective. For outside at some guy 100 yards away, you'd obviously want a rifle.

A pistol caliber...well...use the pistol to get to your big gun if you have to.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 8:10:42 PM EDT
12 Gauge has proven itself time and time again. So why fix somthing that hasnt been broken? My .02 cents.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 8:28:30 PM EDT
Ok, there seems to be plenty of studies showing .223/5.56 is less of an overpenetration risk than 9mm or 12ga buck. Where are the studies showing 9mm/12ga penetrates less than .223/5.56? Many of the pro-shotgun people on here seem to be resting on convention versus recent data. I'm going .223/5.56 for my HD firearm for accuracy, less risk to neighbors, better armour penetration, and higher capacity. I'll leave the shotgun for hunting game.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 8:42:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-jedi:

Originally Posted By colt100:

Originally Posted By Ligament:
From the ammo oracle:

"Fact: Evidence increasingly shows that 5.56 FMJ rounds like M193 and M855 are not the over-penetration risk they have often been though of as. In interior wall tests, 5.56 rounds have less wounding potential after wall strikes than any common 9mm or above handgun ammunition and/or 00 Buck shotgun loads."

Is this true? yesThis means using a 5.56 rifle for HD is safer for the neighbors than 12gauge or a puny 9mm pistol???? Yes againSounds good to me but I need more convincing!basiclly tests show that a pistol round/buckshot/ect will penetraite farther through material like walls then the 223 rd. The hollow point of most SD pistol ammo normally doesn't expand so it acts like a FMJ which plows through the walls and keeps going. The light 223 round sheds velocity quickly and doesn;t go as far. There is a lot on the topic so look around a bit

Why would one choose a 9mm or 12ga for HD if this is the case? I would assume a hit from 5.56 at household distances would be just as damaging as a 12 ga buckshot from the same distance. when your talking about fighting in a room size, a pistol is handy for movement as where the shotgun or Ar is a bit long for that. Actually, a 12 gage with buck doesn;t have much of a pattern at 7 feet but if hit, the 12 gage will be more devasting to the bad guy then the 223


thanks, please excuse my ignorance.




please read all of the tests at
www.theboxotruth.com/

especially,
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
and
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm
and
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
and
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12.htm
and
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm


ar-jedi


Those are ok for entertainment/slight information purposes only, Old Painless plainly states they are not scientific at all. Nor can they be indicative of the construction make-up of all homes, or the performance of all ammunition and firearms.
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