Crap!, now I see why despite the theoritical superiority of the 50-yard zero it hasn't been established as "The" way to zero...You have to be able to see that far!

I couldn't get sufficient definition enough at that distance to get tight enough groups for an effective zero.

Anyone want to comment on this? For a 50-yard zero, where should I be hitting at 25-yards?

if i remember correctly a 50 yard zero you will be hitting low.
I zeroed at 25 meters and at that range as everyone also should I can put all the rounds in the little 1 inch diamond.
50 yards, i agree is tough as I can barley see the diamond at that range

I ran it thought my cheap little ballistics software (SHOOT! v.2.5), and came up with:

.63in low at 25 yards for a 50 yard zero.


CHRIS

Chris, what muzzle velocity and bullet did you use to get .63" low?  

MG

I used one of the "factory" loads in the program.  Here's what they have:
Federal FMJBT, 55gr, BC=0.272, and MV=3150

I'm curious how close the program is to "real" numbers.  If you have anything to compare it to, that would be great.
 
CHRIS

Ah, I should mention I'm shooting Black Hills 75gr (Blue Box) out of a 1/7 16" barrel.

I think that you're kind of missing the point - you're not trying to shoot match-quality groups here (I'm assuming iron sights since you said the target was hard to see). So even if your groups open up a little bit due to the fact that it's harder to see at 50 yards, you should be able to keep them under 2" and zero the scope for that distance.

Besides - if you can't see at 50 yards, then it'll be even harder at 100 or 200. I had a 25 yard zero, but didn't like how high it hit at 100, so I switched to the 50 yard zero.

Of course if you're going for CQB, sight it in for whatever distance you feel appropriate...

Zhukov is right on target. Don't worry too much about group size, just center the groups @ 50yds. As long as your groups have a consistent "pattern" you should be good to go.

I don't have any "high-tech" targets yet, but I used pieces of 2x4 cut to 4" high; giving me an approximate 3 1/2 x 4" rectangular target--which should be easily attainable @ 50yds. Spray paint them black if neccessary. I just "walk" the sights in until I'm hitting the block consistently.

I have always have good results with "Shoot v. 2.5".

I trust it to give accurate numbers.  The variable you really have to watch is the sight offset value that you can set for your gun.  If it is correct, you are good to go, but if it is off, it will screw up your values for all ranges.

Here is the process:

[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwASAxwZAgV7IM!inTSJxRbFKweM2woagmTVQzUWZ3B1IDGdy5dzW4DTF6PrNn0xc!I8KPwVnNPq4W8gAEU4xdVVpGirIWDMBplaW!0AApbgkzPB2GLlEw/Bush_zero01.bmp?dc=4675430808169152151[/img]

[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDSAh0ZRQV7IM!inTSJxQBVsA0hdN2uDodG19gCq6*NZTlPSa!Z0flC1hBZWYf6qG*Sa4ikdEMj3e5gJdPQlXmaJxvJbu1jO6WjEvqR!0u03oF6uMA*Yg/Bush_zero02.bmp?dc=4675430808170970354[/img]

[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDgAh4ZiAV7IM!inTSJxez0XvWt1NzthWaN7jRIsMLUH06DQhfyx*CO6Z!J5qsCkUjlg8DmzlIs*Ef6llnTMQgkEfjJojagMGE09**3T!Z!MTKMnUm!yA/Bush_zero03.bmp?dc=4675430808172656526[/img]

[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwCMBh8ZywV7IM!inTSJxR*Uh6vqqqhfpv9V9ctgkip95M4QYMcIphGyVci3kISYqxxBvAJjdf5rvlnEr8uMbiCRhMU0w5OqMzQ26udv!pzIzNNJxelC9A/Bush_zero04.bmp?dc=4675430808173924337[/img]

Ahhh, I see that we are talking about 75 grain HPBT from a Colt, but at such close ranges, it shouldn't make much difference, although you can disregard the last image.

That's the problem. The rounds are not within 2" and there isn't a consistent pattern. Might be difficult to aim consistently because of the type of target I'm using. In any case, if I knew how low my POI needed to be at 25 yds for a 50 yard zero, it would make the whole process easier for me.

I don't have the answer to your question. But the information given should put you very close. The 50 yard zero seems to provide the best zero for the cartridge being used, however this isn't as important as knowing where your rifle hits at various ranges. No matter where you zero, if you know where the rifle hits at the range you are shooting at, you are good to go.
One thing you could try is starting off at a shorter distance and graudally moving the target further away. This would allow you to get used to the sights and holding on the target. Another option would be to use a bigger target that you can see; then all you have to do is concentrate on holding the sights in the same place everytime. For example you could try using a 25 yard slow-fire pistol target. Use a six o'clock hold to provide a good consistent aiming point. Another thing to try would be using a silhouette target. I have attended a couple carbine classes at shooting schools and we got a rough zero at 25 yards. We wanted to be about 1 1/2" low at 25 yards. We then did the rest of our shooing at distance with silhouette targets. We held center of mass; not center of chest, but center of the whole "body" this should put you in the "A" zone of the target. If you have your hits in the center of the target at 200 yards, you have a good zero.

Here's my $.02 - I would advise to go ahead and zero your rifle at 25, after you get a good solid zero, move to the 50.  You should be well centered, just shooting slighly high so it would be easy to just bring your groups down to center mass.

Baby steps.... [:)]

Ok people who can't see 50 yards are either in a desert store or are so blind maybe they shouldn't be using a rifle ;)

Come'on I got 60+ year olds zeroing at 50 yards.



If your target is TOO small then use a bigger target (like a 3" circle).  Over at MD-AR15.com you can download the 50 yard zeroing targets (which are standard M4 & M16A2 25M targets enlarged appropriately).

If you can't get a 3" group at 50 yards - practice some more (remember breath control & trigger squeeze) or get some training.


Your point of impact can either be 1.2" low or if you're using the IBSZ with your A2 rear sights set the dial to 4 + 2 clicks for a 20" rifle (or dissapator) or set it to '4' for a carbine (with short sight radius).  Then shoot point of aim to point of impact.

Thanks, I sincerely appreciate all the helpful suggestions.

I think I'll start with ArmyInf's suggestion and if that proves unsuccessful I'll look for task specific targets.

How's your basic shooting skills?
If the rifle and ammo is ok, person pulling the trigger needs to be looked at.

[:P]

I zero my Shorty A1 with the Ghost ring Ashley aperture at 50 yards and the best I could do is to keep all the rounds into a 2 inch square?

I think it was because the ashley is a bit larger than the standard A1 aperture!

I have always used the .8 inch low at 25 is dead on at 50 for me I am using a 14.5 barrel with 55 fmj.  I use 3 inch orange dots at 50 when I am sighting in, makes it easier to get a good group.

ok the reason I cant see at the moment the 50 yard target is because I have a temporary condition Central Cirrus Retinosis. It is a blister on the retina of my sighting eye.
and I am referring to the use of iron sights which at the moment at 50 yards isnt too clear.
My vision is distorted and its tough to sight in. hence the 25 meter battle zero for now.
either way I am not shooting with a scope but an Eotech dot sight and my irons.
I plan on getting a scope but dont know which yet.
I plan on doing that as soon as my condition goes away.
Im not blind just distorted
hehehe