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Posted: 9/30/2004 4:37:51 PM EST
Well I am partially done with my new lower and a friend of mine was considering building an AR aswell. He wants an AR that he could take deer hunting if he wanted to. He doesnt reload and isnt a real active shooter. I do not know jack about the 458. socom, .50 beowolf, or 338 Spectre, he wanted me to ask you guys. I told him that I thought these cartriges would probably be similiar or close to heavy pistol loads, Is this correct. Are they adequate for deer hunting?

What would you reccomend to him?

I told him to get a Rem 700, but you know how stuborn people can be. He wants to build his own AR.

He has already said he didnt want a AR10.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 8:54:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 8:55:40 PM EST by POOR_MAN]
damn no replies that must have been a dumb question I take it.

Is there webpage with any ballistic information on these rounds?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 8:55:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 8:55:19 PM EST by POOR_MAN]
.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 8:57:40 PM EST
I know about the first two. Inside 150m or so, they are pretty effective. The Beowulf has cleanly taken Cape Buffalo, but it isnt recommended.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 8:58:11 PM EST
Of those choices, I think the only one with factory ammo is the 50, but I might be wrong.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 9:27:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By 123whisper:
Of those choices, I think the only one with factory ammo is the 50, but I might be wrong.



Corbon makes .458 SOCOM ammo. I'm not sure if the SPECTRE has gone prime time yet though.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 9:47:12 PM EST
google didnt turn up much about the 338 Spectre.

what is it?

Link Posted: 9/30/2004 10:02:25 PM EST
My vote would be with the .458 SOCOM. Yes it is bias. I am having four uppers custom built for me.

You'll notice that the 458 has a slightly necked case. IMO this will aid in feeding into the chamber. The 50 does not. Although both calibers use standard USGI AR mags, I remember hearing that the 458's feed more reliabley from the mags. I have no resources to back up that statment so take it as you wish.

Most importantly: Ammo selection. The 458 has a HUGE selection of different ammo. 300 - 600 gr. RN, FMJ, HP. You can go from 300 gr lead core RN to a 500 gr copper coated solid tugsten core!

As you can see these are NOT heavy pistol cartriges. They are just short enough to squeeze into the USGI's. Mega power. Although I can not say for sure, but I believe - key word "believe" - that this is an accurate cartrige out to 300 yards?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 10:06:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By Triumph955i:
google didnt turn up much about the 338 Spectre.

what is it?




www.teppojutsu.com
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 10:22:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 10:34:31 PM EST by POOR_MAN]
From the Teppo Jutsu web page In regards to the .458 socom

Field-testing of the cartridge shows that reliability with various loads using different projectiles is flawless and that the accuracy is outstanding. Velocity testing of the cartridge in a 24" barrel rifle using 300 grain bullets has shown velocities as high as 2,100 feet/second, rivaling modern high pressure loads in the venerable .45-70 as well as the 444 Marlin. (I dont think they even offer a 24" barrel, all i see ar 16"


This is the part that gets me thinking,Similarly, using 500 grain round nose bullets, muzzle velocities exceeding 1300 feet/second were measured, offering performance on par with 1-ounce slugs used in 2¾" shells for the 12 gauge shotgun. Surley it shoots flatter than a 2 3/4 slug, only hits as hard Right?
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:22:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By POOR_MAN:
Well I am partially done with my new lower and a friend of mine was considering building an AR aswell. He wants an AR that he could take deer hunting if he wanted to. He doesnt reload and isnt a real active shooter. I do not know jack about the 458. socom, .50 beowolf, or 338 Spectre, he wanted me to ask you guys. I told him that I thought these cartriges would probably be similiar or close to heavy pistol loads, Is this correct. Are they adequate for deer hunting?

What would you reccomend to him?

I told him to get a Rem 700, but you know how stuborn people can be. He wants to build his own AR.

He has already said he didnt want a AR10.



I recommend the Beowulf...The ammo is going to be cheaper 20.00 per 20rnds to 35.00 ish per 20 for .458. Since he does not reload the different types of bullets available to the .458 is not a issue. But some would argue that their are just as many available for the .50, the upper for the Beowulf is going to be less expensive. Why? Since they are mass produced and the .458 is made by special order. They both are going to feed reliable. They both will not have a problem taking a deer. PLUS chicks dig the .50 Also I dont know where you live but Competion Shooting Supplies is out of Texas and he is a dealer for the Beowulf and is very knowledgable.

Bigant
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:37:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:40:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:45:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:47:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:50:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:18:41 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:06:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
I'm not sure of the origin of the 338 SPECTRE case.



I seem to remember the Spectre being based off the 10mm. I have a single round at home, so I'll confirm that later.



Starline 10mm Magnum brass. WTF the 10mm Magnum is, I don't know.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:09:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:11:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 10:12:17 AM EST by Combat_Jack]
Shivan, its the Beowulf that is a long .50 AE case.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:32:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:54:56 AM EST

[qoute]
Bigant

The upper for the Beowulf is going to be less expensive. Why? Since they are mass produced and the .458 is made by special order.[/qoute]



[qoute]
Shivan

Dependin­g on who you are, this is either a good or bad thing. If you like cookie cutter, same as everyone else -- or would you like a an upper built for you like you want? All manner of things can be changed. Including barrel profile, barrel taper, barrel material, coatings, and of course all the aftermarket stuff you can slap on any other AR.[/qoute]

I agree that its not for everyone, but IMO if one is looking for a BigBore AR and its their first AR or Rifle/Semi-Auto than their is no need for them to pay the extra for barrel taper, SS barrel, blah blah....Now if he's a man of many Black Rifles than one would want a upper thats all done up with all the extra's.

By the way Shivan if thats your .338 spectra I would like to applaud your Landscaping! Looks very nice

Bigant
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:58:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:59:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 11:02:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 11:04:16 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 12:32:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Shivan, its the Beowulf that is a long .50 AE case.



Please......

I believe that being the one who organized TWO group buys of over 60,000 pieces of formed, properly headstamped 458 SOCOM brass, I can safely say that I know what I am talking about here.

Thanks.



My apologies Shivan, I guess we are both kinda right and kinda wrong. The .50 Beowulf is a lengthened .50 AE, with a 7.62x39 bolt face.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 12:46:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 3:00:28 PM EST
The beowulf is a 50 AE case lengthened to 1.650 inches - it is formed from the same cup and rim is rebated to 7.62 x 39.
HFG
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 4:42:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 5:47:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By HipFiredGun:
The beowulf is a 50 AE case lengthened to 1.650 inches - it is formed from the same cup and rim is rebated to 7.62 x 39.
HFG



Which makes it a unique case, more different from the 50AE than the same....



Correct
HFG
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:49:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 7:06:15 PM EST by MartytW]
OK, enough bickering, kids!

The 50 B and 458 S are basically brothers. They came from the same parent(s) but are slightly different, and timing wise, they could have been non-identical twins. Both are lengthened 50AE cases, one is slightly longer, the other has slightly larger base ...

50B:
1.650
7.62x39 rim
straight wall

458S:
1.575
7.62x51 rim
necked

Bullet selection for both these days is comparable, and both have similar factory loads IIRC (300-ish standard, with heavier available). For a while the 600gr load in the 458 was the heaviest, but there may be a heavy 50 cal bullet (.500) out there now.

Both are pistol SIZE but pack RIFLE power. The statement from our website on barrel length is an old one from the original prototype and SHIVAN has posted the numbers before showing that 16" barrel uppers are getting those velocities and that the CorBon 300 gr factory load in the 458 SOCOM 16" exceeds the CorBon 300 gr factory load in the 45-70 24" rifle.

Edit to add price info:
MOST 458 S uppers are custom made to the exact specs of the customer which bears a higher price tag than pret-a-porter versions. We have offered group buys with pricing that competes with the other upper ($675 for a 16" SS upper) and are striving to do so on a regular basis. What we find though is that those who want to shoot "out of the box" and do not reload favor the 50B, whereas those that want the rifle to their specs and prefer to handload favor the 458. Similar I guess to someone shooting a 243 Winchester out of the Savage (nothing wrong with Savage, I like them a lot and own them myself) versus someone shooting 6 PPC out of a Nesika or Stolle. Both will shoot similar velocities with the lighter bullets, with the 243 winning with the heavier bullets. But significant difference in price, with the Stolle a custom job and the PPC is handloading only. Diff'rent strokes, diff'rent folks, I guess.

On the 338 Spectre:
The 338 Spectre is made from 10mm Auto Magnum which is the 10mm Auto lengthened to 1.25" and then necked to 338. The 10mm AM was for the original AMT pistol no longer made. Rim size is identical to 6.8x43 SPC and the cartridge has to use the mags for that latter (SPC) cartridge due to the thicker case.

The .338 Spectre will do about 1700 fps with a 180 gr Ballistic Tip from a 16", comparable to the 44 Mag and the 357 Herrett. There is a 160 gr Barnes X that would do about 2000 fps so you could take deer with it. It was meant to compete with the 300 Whisper in that this cartridge will push a 300 gr RN or SMK at 1040 fps which offers 25% more energy on target than the 300 Whisper, with a larger bullet frontal area to boot.

LOADED FACTORY AMMO for the 338 Spectre can be bought from Quality Cartridge, just tell Pete what bullet and how many and he will load it for you. This round was demo'ed at Blackwater (the company, not the AFJ ShootOut) and raised some eyebrows and interest. Right now it is a custom project still but we are pushing to get it out there.

That landscaping, thanks for the compliment. 5 ton of moss rock, 12x18 pond with water fall, two 72 GPM pumps, 4 water spill ways, landscape lighting, all done by one guy BY HAND. Took over 2, almost 3 years, Texas heat to boot. But the labs love it, as do the frogs and snakes ....

I hope that covers it all and clears things up, now play nice with each other All you had to do was ask

Marty ter Weeme
Founder, Teppo Jutsu LLC

PS HFG you still owe me footage
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:14:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:52:07 PM EST
Considering 2 things, In a weapon platform like the AR, with forged aluminium recievers. How well does the AR hold up to these heavy loads? If anyone has one, How many rounds have you put through your .50 B or .458. S? And what is the overall condition?

I am certian it wouldnt hold up as well as a chambering like 5.56mm, Considering on both big bore chamberings your spending over $1.00 a pop I don't think that wearing it out will be an option for him.

I have read that the standard USGI mags must be altered on a .50 Beowulf.. "The .50 Beowulf cartridge combines real power and accuracy in a package suitable for the AR-15 platform. For additional magazines, standard AR-15 magazines work fine with easy-to-accomplish modification to the feed lips" here is the website I quoted www.Gunblast.com
and here is an additional link if any are interested

Considering theses modifations, will they still funstion in a 5.56mm AR?



Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:04:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By MartytW:

The 50 B and 458 S are basically brothers.

Bullet selection for both these days is comparable,

What we find though is that those who want to shoot "out of the box" and do not reload favor the 50B, whereas those that want the rifle to their specs and prefer to handload favor the 458.

Marty ter Weeme
Founder, Teppo Jutsu LLC




Does the 458. Socom require you to modify the mags?

Where in Texas? If you dont mind? If so thats ok too, Is your shop located in Texas aswell? I only ask because I would like to see your product.

Thanks for your post! I appreciate the time you took to go over this.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:15:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 9:16:09 PM EST by POOR_MAN]
And just because its strange and you guys might find it interesting check this link out Tromix (If you havent seen it already)

There is a AR offered here in .50 AE and 475., I had no idea there was this many chamberings out there, on top of the ones I did know (pistol, 22lr, and 6.8 calibers etc.)

Look at the siamese 223 and even a muzzle loader AR, wow, strange
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:19:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By POOR_MAN:
And just because its strange and you guys might find it interesting check this link out Tromix (If you havent seen it already)

There is a AR offered here in .50 AE and 475., I had no idea there was this many chamberings out there, on top of the ones I did know (pistol, 22lr, and 6.8 calibers etc.)

Look at the siamese 223 and even a muzzle loader AR, wow, strange



There are also many, many more.
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 8:07:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By POOR_MAN:
Considering 2 things, In a weapon platform like the AR, with forged aluminium recievers. How well does the AR hold up to these heavy loads? If anyone has one, How many rounds have you put through your .50 B or .458. S? And what is the overall condition?

I am certian it wouldnt hold up as well as a chambering like 5.56mm, Considering on both big bore chamberings your spending over $1.00 a pop I don't think that wearing it out will be an option for him.

I have read that the standard USGI mags must be altered on a .50 Beowulf.. "The .50 Beowulf cartridge combines real power and accuracy in a package suitable for the AR-15 platform. For additional magazines, standard AR-15 magazines work fine with easy-to-accomplish modification to the feed lips" here is the website I quoted www.Gunblast.com
and here is an additional link if any are interested

Considering theses modifations, will they still funstion in a 5.56mm AR?






Yes you might need to bend the feed lips up, but thats all...by doing this I dont think they would work with the 5.56rnd anymore, but their is nothing wrong with having a couple mags for the Beowulf

Bigant
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 6:13:08 PM EST
Poor-man -

458 S does not require ANY modifications to the magazine, but some might make life easier. Installing a Sinclair (or other) single shot follower might allow one extra round in the mag. Also, because I do a lot of loading of mags, some of them have a semi-circular cut out in the front, which is there to make life easier of my thumb. After the last SHOT Show, my thumb and index finger were bruised from demonstating how to load the rounds in a mag and how they fit.

While Thermolds will work, one customer found that because the plastic flexes more than the Al of Fe, the rounds worked their way out of his Thermolds in his range bag during travel.

Where are we located in TX? Just North of Houston, but unfortunately we cannot entertain at the "shop" ... We do, however, go to some of the local ranges to test fire and if you are in the area, are free to join us there. We bring extra ammo just for those interested in trying one. For LE/MIL we also have Demo Packs put together of ammo and uppers.

How do the lowers hold up? I have a Tromix forged lower dedicated to the 458 S. I started using it with the prototype upper in late 2000. It has been used to test fire EVERY single upper we have sold, and typically every upper gets 4 rounds through it. In addition, it has been my own plinking lower and the shop test fit lower and has served for some demos. Wear to date is visible on the take down pins, the buffer where it contacts the carrier and there are two grooves where the charging handle slides back over the lower just above the receiver extension (stock). Other than that, she has no issues. I have NO idea how many rounds have been through this lower, but considering the amount of brass I have bought over the years, I say it does not pose any issue.

Hope that helps

Marty
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 6:45:18 PM EST
First off, let me say that I love my custom 458 Socom. It is really the best thing for hunting pigs. You get plenty of power and 11+1 shots lets you take more than one if you desire.

One round your 'non-reloading' friend might consider is 7.62X39. It is comparable to 300 Whisper if not slightly more powerful. Ammo can be had for around $100/1000. A 150 grain HP in the 1900-2100 FPS range should be commercially available, and be plenty potent on deer up to about 200 lb with proper shot placement. I have reloaded 150s up to 2150 from my 16" barrel.
The main complaint about 7.62X39 is the magazines not feeding well. A couple of years ago I saw a lower that would take all the standard AR-15 parts, but would also accept AK-47 mags!!! If your friend wants to build up his own AR, then I think that would be a sweet deer and plinking gun!!!

Have fun!
Sponge
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