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Posted: 5/29/2003 1:10:45 PM EDT
Hey guys I know this is not an AR question, but I know many of you have hunting/sniper rifles. I am looking into a custom lefthanded remington 700. I like all my weapons to have that black tacticle look. I cannot decide on the caliber. I know most police and military forces use .308 for it's pedictability. I will hunt animals with this rifle not people, I was reccomended 3006 because it to is predictable and has more ft/lbs. and ammo is fairly inexpensive and comes in many different loads. What do you think. I wanted .308 for less recoil, I know it will take down a white tail. My old man say go with the 3006. ???
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 1:24:53 PM EDT
If you want more versatility, aka hunt more animals, go with the 30'06. If you want cheap ammo and lots of selection, go with .308. True, '06 has lots of ammo too, but you can shoot paper and rocks a heck of a lot cheaper with .308 than with the '06. I don't have a .308 YET, but I plan to get one just because the ammo is so cheap. It's cheaper than .223 many times. Plus it makes bigger holes[:)]
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 1:42:33 PM EDT
I own a 308, a 30-06, and a 30-06AI. Get the 30-06 as it is a better cartridge with the heavier bullet weights. When you start chasing elk, the 180 gr out of 30-06 makes a huge difference. I hunted with a guy who shot an elk 3 times with his 308 before it finally quit after running 1/2 mile. I shot mine the day before with a 180 gr out of the 30-06 and the elk died within 10 yards. The 30-06 will also let you shoot bullets in the 200+ gr category which are VERY effective on elk and bear at close distances (less than 200 yards). The 308 will only do well with 150 and 165 gr bullets (it is a deer only cartridge). With that being said, I am going to buy a 308 for my wife as it does recoil less and she doesn't want to hunt elk. Karl
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 1:48:01 PM EDT
Ditto as above. If you are going to go for elk and bigger, get the '06. For smaller animals, 308 will do everything just fine, and then becomes a short action vs long action thing, not ballistice difference.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 1:51:13 PM EDT
308 or 3006? Lets make that easy. 140 or 270? thats the cost of a case of 1k surplus. So with 308 being as good if not better then 3006, as well as close to half the price, the answer seems pretty clear to me, but everyone is free to their own opinions.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 1:53:58 PM EDT
#1) Are you going to reload ammo? #2) Have you checked ammo prices? #3) Have you consulted a ballistic table? If you are going to reload and make several high weight bullet loads for Elk or other large game then the '06 is nice. If you are going to mainly stick to bambi, then the .308 will do everything an '06 will do with less weight and shorter action -- i.e. less weight.[:D] The ballistics table will show this... Ed
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 1:54:32 PM EDT
The .308 was designed by the US military in the 1950’s to essentially give 30-06 ballistics in a shorter case. It is only slightly less powerful than the 30-06 except when you get into pretty heavy bullets – say 200 grains or so – where the 30-06’s superiority becomes more noticeable. Take a look at a factory ballistics table to see the exact differences, such as they are. OTOH, the .308 can fit in a shorter action, which can make the rifle both a bit shorter and lighter. Also, the .308 is probably slightly more accurate than the 30-06. I don’t know that there is much recoil difference between the two assuming everything else is pretty much equal. I assure you a lightweight .308 can pack quite a kick! I haven’t a clue what you mean by predictably. IMHO, unless you’re interested in using heavier bullets, the .308 is a slightly better way to go. Still, you can’t go wrong with a 30-06 either.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 1:57:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 1:58:28 PM EDT by SHIVAN458]
[url]http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/ballistics.htm[/url] Compare and contrast to your hearts content....if you do not reload the '06 "advantage" is basically out the window. Ed
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 3:31:39 PM EDT
True, true...if you're gonna shoot a lot and want it cheep, go .308. If you're gonna go after bigger game, get a bigger rifle like a .338 or .375 H&H. Yer stretchin' the 3006 when you load it with heavy bullets cause it really changes the trajectory. I got both. I've NEVER had a deer take 2 steps after getting whacked with the 3006. Same with the .308.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 3:34:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By greco: I've NEVER had a deer take 2 steps after getting whacked with the 3006. Same with the .308.
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Did you shoot him in the earhole? I've seen deer, hit in the heart and traversed both lungs, run 100yds before expiring -- with a 444 Marlin. [shock] Not my shot, but near me.....
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 3:37:33 PM EDT
I'll address the 30-06 only. The advantage comes with heavy bullets as stated prviously. You get more big game options. Accuracy is a non issue. Once you master the hold off for your'perticular rifle scope combination it will hit where you want it. Recoil will be higher than a comparable .308. If you go 30-06, I'll make a sugestion. I have had great results building my own. Heres how. Buy a surpluss 8mm mauser Lrg. ring ($75) Buy a flutted ex. heavy barrel 30-06/.308 both can be fitted. (Est.$165-195, Guns-n -stuff) Buy a fitted stock for the barrel of choice ($120) For around $300 and change you get a serious hunter rig that you'll build yourself on the best action ever made. I've done this many times for myself and friends with great results.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 3:38:34 PM EDT
I have also had similar experiences shooting both pronghorn and mule deer in Oregon. A single shot from a 30-06 literally flattens the animal. I have seen deer picked up off the ground with a 30-06. I have also witnessed the vaccumm effect that really big bullets can have on animal tissue. Lungs sucked out exit holes for example. Karl
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 3:40:08 PM EDT
While I'm suprised by most of the answers, I agree with them. You will get a ballistic advantage at just about all bullet weights with the 30-06. Especially if you reload. But I don't really think of the 308 as a second rate choice. It is a superb cartridge and will probably outshoot the '06 in the accuracy department by a small margin.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 3:52:11 PM EDT
Folks, there just ain't that much difference between a 168grn bullet-.308(1:10 twist) and a 180grn 30-06(? twist). Now if we're going to start talking 200grn+ 30-06 bullets then some learned person had better start thinking about the correct barrel twist need to accurately direct this projectile. (Let me say clearly that I don't know diddly about the 30-06.)
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:10:21 PM EDT
There is another player here, and that is the .300 Win Mag. I studied the ballistic tables in my reloading manuals before buying my Remington 700, and there is not a lot of difference betwen the .308 and the .30-'06. So I bought the .300 Win Mag. It has a 1:10 twist, just like the .308 and .30-'06 and will shoot a very heavy .30 calber bullet a long way with accuracy. The down side is that it is brutal for a wussy like me to put 100 rounds of 220 Gr bullets down range. Also, there is no cheap surplus ammo available in .300 Win Mag, although there are plenty of 150 to 180 Gr. boat-tail bullets for reloading. With a slow shooting bolt gun, it's a lot easier to reload for a day's shooting than a fast shooting AR.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:21:02 PM EDT
There is no difference in recoil to push X grains of bullet, through X inches of barrel with X velocity at the muzzle, be it a .30-30 or .300 Remington Ultra Mag. everthing else being equal in the rifle (wieght). With factory ammo your talking maybe 60' per second in most hunting weight ammo. .308 is the way to go. Shorter action also means short bolt throw. More easier to operate under stress for quick follow up shots.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 9:19:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fuego: There is another player here, and that is the .300 Win Mag. I studied the ballistic tables in my reloading manuals before buying my Remington 700, and there is not a lot of difference betwen the .308 and the .30-'06. So I bought the .300 Win Mag. It has a 1:10 twist, just like the .308 and .30-'06 and will shoot a very heavy .30 calber bullet a long way with accuracy. The down side is that it is brutal for a wussy like me to put 100 rounds of 220 Gr bullets down range. Also, there is no cheap surplus ammo available in .300 Win Mag, although there are plenty of 150 to 180 Gr. boat-tail bullets for reloading. With a slow shooting bolt gun, it's a lot easier to reload for a day's shooting than a fast shooting AR.
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Funny you should bring up that caliber. I should receive my ArmaLite AR-30 in .300WinMag next week. It is as you say a bolt-gun. The first bolt-action I will have owned in a while. (I'm also a wussy and got a brake !!)
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 9:33:48 PM EDT
300 Win Mag burns up the barrel too fast. 308 has a smaller case and burns the powder more consistently thus it is more accurate from an inate stand point. I say .308 if you have only one.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:41:10 AM EDT
Here's my two cents. First are you just getting a factory 700? www.remington.com/firearms/left_hand/lefthand.htm Or having the gun totally custom? The reason is which factory guns are available in the cartridge. Some other factors to look at are if your just shooting match ammo at targets than there is more 308 loads out there. Hunting ammo choices lean more to the 30-06. If you reload both are equall in components. The 30-06 will usually shoot the same bullet at about 200fps faster than its shorter case. As stated the .30 Gov't of 1906 is better suited with longer/heavier bullets than the 308. In the 308 advantages are less powder charges if you reload. $$$ Ball ammo is cheaper as stated. I can't make your choice but hopefully I and others have helped you. Not much difference between the two. I've hunted with both and they have both been one shot shooters for me. De Oppresso Liber
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 9:35:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: 300 Win Mag burns up the barrel too fast.
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And I couldn't care less. I should live long enough to shoot out the AR-30's barrel !!
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 9:43:24 AM EDT
just a note, I'm originally from Utah and the 30'06 is a great gun for Elk and Moose, but not so great for coyotes, there weren't any ears left to pick up the bounty with *sigh*
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 9:45:52 AM EDT
.30-06, Why you ask? "cause its just so damn cool" I say. .308 is about right for ahooting people but if you want some real knockdown power without mindnumbing recoil go .30-06. DONT GET .300 Winchester Magnum (I mentioned mindnumbing recoil right?) its a pain in the ass to shoot not to mention expensive. My experiance with it has been bad, I shot about 40 rounds out of a FN police special and my shoulder hurt for a week afterward. If you want to go WAY long range get something in .338 Lapua (might I recccomend a Sako TRG-42) its expensive ammo but has the same range a as a .50 BMG with a gun that only cost about $3000.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 10:06:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 10:10:31 AM EDT by SHIVAN458]
Originally Posted By ZRH: .30-06, Why you ask? "cause its just so damn cool" I say. .308 is about right for ahooting people but if you want some real knockdown power without mindnumbing recoil go .30-06. DONT GET .300 Winchester Magnum (I mentioned mindnumbing recoil right?) its a pain in the ass to shoot not to mention expensive. My experiance with it has been bad, I shot about 40 rounds out of a FN police special and my shoulder hurt for a week afterward. If you want to go WAY long range get something in .338 Lapua (might I recccomend a Sako TRG-42) its expensive ammo but has the same range a as a .50 BMG with a gun that only cost about $3000.
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How does force, measured in similar units, that is within 200ft/lbs become "real knockdown" power? The .308 is within 200ft/lbs of the '06 at the muzzle it is withn 100ft/lbs at 500yds. Ballisitically they are almost an identical round. [url=http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/centerfire/print_cf_ballistics.asp?cal=33]308 Win Remington Factory Load Ballistics[/url] [url=http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/centerfire/print_cf_ballistics.asp?cal=30]30-06 Springfield Remington Factory Load Ballistics[/url] Ed
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 11:23:05 AM EDT
I had to make the same decision three years ago when I bought a new deer rifle. I narrowed the choices down to .308, .30-06, and 300 Win Mag and I went with the .30-06. I am essentially a limp noodle when it comes to recoil, so the 300 Win Mag (while ballistically tempting) was out. I don't like muzzle breaks, especially because my hunting buddy carries a .300 Win Mag that has a muzzle break on it! The blast out of that thing is simply stunning. I wanted the ability to use heavier bullets on occasion (over 180 grains) and for that reason the .308 was out. I can surely understand the temptation of a .308 on the surplus ammo front, though. One problem with a .30-06 is it's versitility. I haven't been able to justify another deer rifle, and there are lots and lots of wonderful deer rifles and calibers out there. It is a trap, so beware, especially if you are a rifle loony like I am. Must be my scottish nature at work, but I just wanted to warn you. Oh, and if you are feeling flush you can buy a box of Hornady Light Magnum ammunition and go home at the end of the day with a bruise (or flinch) you can savor. Regardless, my .30-06 has been a joy. The rifle is heavy (8.75 pounds scoped) and I can honestly say I enjoy shooting the rifle. My arms have finally stopped stretching when I carry the rifle in the field! I bring up rifle weight because most of the sniper style rifles I see are just too damn heavy for me to want them to lug them around (10+ pounds without scope??). Another issue to consider is barrel length as it effects (obviously) ballistics, but also balance in the field. If you can handle the type of synthetic stock (I am guessing that is what you are interested in) before you purchase it to make sure it fits you. In summary, I wanted a rifle that was corrosion resistant (I hunt in all sorts of horrid weather), had a synthetic stock, and had a good crisp trigger pull. I wanted the rifle to be sub MOA and to be chambered in an adequate cartridge for 95% of the hunting I would probably ever do = 30-06. I called up HS Precision and they delivered what I wanted. Now I am stuck with it for the next 30 years, dammit. I wish you the best with your choice and good hunting!
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 12:06:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 12:11:05 PM EDT by ZRH]
This is my info. FYI a foot pound is how much energy it takes to move so many pounds 1 foot. For a better measure we'll use newtons 1294 ft lbs (.308) = 5756 newtons, 1549 ft lbs (.30-06)= 6890 newtons to the nearest integer. Thats enough of a difference in knockdown power for me at 400yds. source: 147 grain FMJ .30-06 [url]http://www.winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfrproductsheet.aspx?symbol=USA3006&qrystr=Y2FydGxpc3QrQUQwLU16QXRNRFlnVTNCeWFXNW5abWxsY­kdRK0FDVS0zZCtBQ1ktdXNlbGlzdCtBRDAtbm9uZStBQ1­ktYnJhbmRsaXN0K0FEMC1ub25lK0FDWS1idWxsZXR0eXB­lK0FEMC1ub25l[/url] 147 grain FMJ .308 [url]http://www.winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfrproductsheet.aspx?symbol=Q3130&qrystr=Y2FydGxpc3QrQUQwLU55NDJNbmcxTVcxdCtBQ1ktdXNlb­GlzdCtBRDAtbm9uZStBQ1ktYnJhbmRsaXN0K0FEMC1ub2­5lK0FDWS1idWxsZXR0eXBlK0FEMC1ub25l[/url] But if ya ask me id go with something in 7.5x55 Swiss. Great stuff, I hit a woodchuck at 600yds and it liquified half the thing. BTW its essentially a hot loaded .308. Generates a litle less power than .30-06 but more than .308.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 12:18:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ZRH: DONT GET .300 Winchester Magnum (I mentioned mindnumbing recoil right?) its a pain in the ass to shoot not to mention expensive. If you want to go WAY long range get something in .338 Lapua (might I recccomend a Sako TRG-42) its expensive ammo but has the same range a as a .50 BMG with a gun that only cost about $3000.
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I ordered my AR-30 with a muzzle brake to eliminate pain. I got it in .300WinMag so I could afford to shoot it some of the time and the longest range available to me is 1000 yds. And I would also not hesitate to recommend the Sako but the TRG-41 gun in .338 Laupa. (Probably because I've owned the TRG-41 but not the TRG-42.) Now all kidding aside for the hunting use described I would find something I liked in 30-06.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 3:51:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SHIVAN458:
Originally Posted By ZRH: .30-06, Why you ask? "cause its just so damn cool" I say. .308 is about right for ahooting people but if you want some real knockdown power without mindnumbing recoil go .30-06. DONT GET .300 Winchester Magnum (I mentioned mindnumbing recoil right?) its a pain in the ass to shoot not to mention expensive. My experiance with it has been bad, I shot about 40 rounds out of a FN police special and my shoulder hurt for a week afterward. If you want to go WAY long range get something in .338 Lapua (might I recccomend a Sako TRG-42) its expensive ammo but has the same range a as a .50 BMG with a gun that only cost about $3000.
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How does force, measured in similar units, that is within 200ft/lbs become "real knockdown" power? The .308 is within 200ft/lbs of the '06 at the muzzle it is withn 100ft/lbs at 500yds. Ballisitically they are almost an identical round. [url=http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/centerfire/print_cf_ballistics.asp?cal=33]308 Win Remington Factory Load Ballistics[/url] [url=http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/centerfire/print_cf_ballistics.asp?cal=30]30-06 Springfield Remington Factory Load Ballistics[/url] Ed
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I fear it's hopeless Ed. Most here are presenting arguments base on tradition and emotion and no little bit of truth or fact can refute that.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 3:55:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 5:00:34 PM EDT by Halfcocked]
Originally Posted By ZRH: This is my info. FYI a foot pound is how much energy it takes to move so many pounds 1 foot.
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What school did you go to? Edited to add:...so it would take the same amount of energy to move said pounds 10 feet on ice as it would 10 feet on gravel?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 4:12:15 PM EDT
There is very little difference, as they say, between the two. Surplus ammo for the .308 (7.62x51, really) is NOT that much cheaper, unless you are willing to shoot questionable ammo through your gun. The Indian Surplus stuff sucks, there are other problems with some of what's out there, etc. Basically, the .308 will do anything that the 30-06 does [b]with factory loads[/b]. If you reload, the 30-06 has more potential due to a longer neck, larger case using slower powders for better velocity, etc. But in factory ammo it's a toss up. Well, the new "Light Magnum" loads increase the difference as well. The .308 can be more accurate, but not much. Not enough that someone other than Camp Perry master or Olympic level will really notice. A .308 gun would udually retain a slightly better resale value, but not much. What calls your name? That's the real question. I would go 30-06, but that's just me. There is NO decisive difference.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:02:13 PM EDT
If you ever make it to Alaska a 30-06 will be marginal, a .308, useless. We take small black bears and sometimes Caribou with the 30-06, but most real hunters here have at a minimum a 300 WinMag (I have a 300WSM because a 600lb Griz laughed at my 30-06 :) because Moose and Grizzly's take a lot to down. So if it's between the 308 and 30-06, choose the 30-06.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:19:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 5:20:49 PM EDT by ZRH]
Originally Posted By Halfcocked:
Originally Posted By ZRH: This is my info. FYI a foot pound is how much energy it takes to move so many pounds 1 foot.
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What school did you go to? Edited to add:...so it would take the same amount of energy to move said pounds 10 feet on ice as it would 10 feet on gravel?
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Actually that was never explained to me. A foot pound is "1 pound of force exerted on the end of a lever arm 1 foot long is one foot-pound". Thats why I changed it to newtons. I can convert it to BTUs or horsepower if you want... [edit] speeling
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:53:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 5:54:15 PM EDT by Halfcocked]
Actually in this case we're talking about Kenetic Energy and the formula is 1/2 m*V**2 (one half the mass times the velocity squared).
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:07:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ZRH: Actually that was never explained to me. A foot pound is "1 pound of force exerted on the end of a lever arm 1 foot long is one foot-pound". Thats why I changed it to newtons. I can convert it to BTUs or horsepower if you want... [edit] speeling
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That is torque and is more related to power than energy. A gallon of gas has a finite amount of energy. Burn it in a top fuel dragster's engine and it will develope a tremendous amount of power. Burn the gas in my Chevette and you don't get a lot of power. At the end of the gallon each has expended the same amount of energy though (all things being equal like engine efficiency etc.) Let's not hijack the thread. If you want to start another topic I'ld be glad to chime in.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:17:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 6:19:13 PM EDT by ZRH]
Yes lets call it ballistics 101 lol. But really Im just trying to say I would go with .30-06.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:20:49 PM EDT
... and I'ld go .308.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:41:43 PM EDT
In my humble opinion, I prefer the .308 just because of the ammo availability. The 3006 is a better round for impact power. Both are excellent long distance rounds. Sorry, I couldn't be more help. You asked me to choose between two of my fav calibers for long guns.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 11:10:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 11:12:24 PM EDT by aka_Krill]
Thank you all. Now which caliber should I choose? [:)]. To answer some questions, "predictability" I meant knowing the ballistics table in my head and be able to "predict" where the bullet will hit. Yes also It will be custom built from Caswells in AZ. I thought there was something special about .308 and thats why law enforcement uses it. Cheaper ammo sounds good but so does more newtons, BTU's, HP, ft lbs, torque, power, and energy. I will be hunting deer mostly unless I win the moose lotto or perhaps even a black bear. It seem the majority of you say 30-06. They are similar rounds. More so than I knew about. Eventually I'll have both because I too have a scottish gun collecting habit. [:)] I'm still not sure but I leaning toward 30-06. I was set on .308 but it seems I've been persuaded otherwise. Thanks again everyone.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 9:44:29 PM EDT
Well, you can download a .300 Win Mag to match .308 or .30-'06 ballistics. But when it comes flexibility, the .300 Win Mag. Can do it all. But you better be a handloader, because you can not buy a .308 equivalent load out of a .300 Win Mag off the shelf. You have to build it yourself. You will not get 1000 ft/lbs of energy at 800 yds out of a .308 or a .30-'06. A .300 Win Mag will do it easily, with match accuracy. But it kicks. The .300 Win Mag has the flexibility to be downloaded to .308 Win if desired. The .308 is at it's limits as is.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 9:55:08 PM EDT
When it comes to predictability Id still go .30-06. The reason most police departments use .308 is because the military uses .308 in its sniper rifles. Just about any cartridge that was ever used by the military is gonna be realiable and have a ton of info on it. I dont know about eveyone else but you can get milsurp .30-06 for the same price as .308 if you look. My final argument. .30-06 (7.6?x63)is 12mm longer than .308 (7.62x51). Remeber BIGGER IS BETTER. lol. Better yet just get one rifle in each...
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