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Posted: 11/26/2007 5:06:08 PM EDT

#1 I got some Ultramax ammo (refurb brass) and there is a fair amount of FC with nato cross. So Federal has additional contracts with the gov for 7.62?

#2 On Winchester .308 and 7.62 nato the bullet is magnetic. Is the LC 7.62 ball magnetic as well? Whats the skinny on this? Anyone object to this in a stainless barrel?
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 5:58:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2007 6:00:02 PM EDT by TaylorWSO]

Originally Posted By cckw:
#1 I got some Ultramax ammo (refurb brass) and there is a fair amount of FC with nato cross. So Federal has additional contracts with the gov for 7.62? M118LR?

#2 On Winchester .308 and 7.62 nato the bullet is magnetic. Is the LC 7.62 ball magnetic as well? NO-I have 10K of it Whats the skinny on this? Anyone object to this in a stainless barrel? NO
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 8:03:20 PM EDT
Any reason known for Winchester choosing to use steel in this bullet?
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 2:50:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cckw:
Any reason known for Winchester choosing to use steel in this bullet?



Yes....MONEY.

It is far cheaper to make a steel jacket and coat it with copper than it is to make a solid copper jacket. Only a thin coating is necessary to protect the bore from steel on steel contact, much like the thin film lubrication of an internal combustion engine.
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 2:56:20 PM EDT
I have 500 rounds of 07 stamped NATO 7.62x51. 149 grain bullet. They are evidently supplying some NATO country.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 8:55:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tommygun2000:

Originally Posted By cckw:
Any reason known for Winchester choosing to use steel in this bullet?



Yes....MONEY.

It is far cheaper to make a steel jacket and coat it with copper than it is to make a solid copper jacket. Only a thin coating is necessary to protect the bore from steel on steel contact, much like the thin film lubrication of an internal combustion engine.


It's thicker than you think. Here is a photo of the 147gr Winchester NATO ammo.

Link Posted: 11/29/2007 9:00:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By imtheflash:

Originally Posted By tommygun2000:

Originally Posted By cckw:
Any reason known for Winchester choosing to use steel in this bullet?



Yes....MONEY.

It is far cheaper to make a steel jacket and coat it with copper than it is to make a solid copper jacket. Only a thin coating is necessary to protect the bore from steel on steel contact, much like the thin film lubrication of an internal combustion engine.


It's thicker than you think. Here is a photo of the 147gr Winchester NATO ammo.

i31.photobucket.com/albums/c392/imtheflash/weapons/steelcore.jpg


The copper looks pretty thin to me!
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 9:55:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/30/2007 10:27:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2007 10:28:23 AM EDT by cckw]

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
One time, DocGKR mentioned to me that the steel-jacketed LC ammo actually fragments. You might try shooting it into some water to see what it does. If it fragments, you might have a heck of a SHTF round on your hands.


The only place where i can water jug test is off limits until after deer season, and problably till warmer weather. but if nobody else does this test I'll get around to it. How many 1 gal milk jugs would I want lined up? I assume they'll need to be secured between boards or something to control them?
Link Posted: 11/30/2007 10:35:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 5:45:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cckw:
Anyone object to this in a stainless barrel?
The steel used in bullet jackets is typically REALLY soft. You could use it in a plain steel barrel and not have any problems. Your stainless barrel won't object at all.
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 6:02:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GHPorter:

Originally Posted By cckw:
Anyone object to this in a stainless barrel?
The steel used in bullet jackets is typically REALLY soft. You could use it in a plain steel barrel and not have any problems. Your stainless barrel won't object at all.


I used to believe this until I sectioned a bullet from some Hirtinburger and some MEN, it's far harder then I expected it to be as well as thicker.
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 6:33:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/1/2007 6:38:03 AM EDT by FMJ]

Originally Posted By cckw:

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
One time, DocGKR mentioned to me that the steel-jacketed LC ammo actually fragments. You might try shooting it into some water to see what it does. If it fragments, you might have a heck of a SHTF round on your hands.


The only place where i can water jug test is off limits until after deer season, and problably till warmer weather. but if nobody else does this test I'll get around to it. How many 1 gal milk jugs would I want lined up? I assume they'll need to be secured between boards or something to control them?



I use 5 GALLON BUCKET instead of milk jugs

shooting M193 at 50 yards

Most of the TIME there will be Small Splinters of the Metal jacket still in the bucket


5 gallon buckets makes for a better trap for Me


But my Range was my yard for most all my Life
until I moved to Punta Gorda FL 4 /5 yaers ago


Been wanting a AR10 308

I had a 30/06 bolt action it was fun shooting Long range
But shooting over 60rds kinda sucked
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 1:01:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2008 3:56:38 PM EDT by leid]

Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By tommygun2000:

Originally Posted By cckw:
Any reason known for Winchester choosing to use steel in this bullet?


Yes....MONEY.

It is far cheaper to make a steel jacket and coat it with copper than it is to make a solid copper jacket. Only a thin coating is necessary to protect the bore from steel on steel contact, much like the thin film lubrication of an internal combustion engine.


That is true. Lake City makes two types of M80 ball, one with gilding metal jacket, the other a copper-plated steel jacket.

One time, DocGKR mentioned to me that the steel-jacketed LC ammo actually fragments. You might try shooting it into some water to see what it does. If it fragments, you might have a heck of a SHTF round on your hands.


Zhukov,
The recently available Federal commercial sales 7.62x51mm (308 Winchester) 149gr. loading is a steel jacket bullet in '07 FC NATO marked brass. I did not think it possible for steel jacketed round to fragment. Good info!
Also, it appears we may have broken the code on the Winchester 308/7.62mm 147gr FMJ ammo as far as gilded metal vs. steel jacket. Q3130 boxes marked 7.62x51mm have a magnetic steel jacket, but USA3081 boxes marked 308 Winchester are gilded metal jacket. Check some with a magnet before buying to be sure Winchester did not change bullet types.
I tested different lots of USGI WCC, LC, & FA 7.62x51mm FMJ ammo with a magnet. All 3 made both magnetic & non-magnetic bullet ammo.

Thanks,
Carey

Edit: Brass on the Federal XM80762 ammo was reported to be '07 LC, but on the Federal 7.62x51mm I received it is actually '07 FC NATO marked brass. This 7.62mm NATO loading has a Federal lot number, not LC.

Edited for accurate content.
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 5:32:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/1/2007 5:34:21 PM EDT by cckw]
The ammo that prompted my question is some I bought on the EE. The previous owner had taken it from the boxes and and stored in ammo cans in ziplock bags with only basic markings on the bags, so I don't know the box numbers (this is one reson I don't bulk pack like a lot of you guys). There are nato 06 and some polished commercial headstamped 308. Both types have the magnetic bullets. Also a bag of AE that is non-magnetic.

I would ask if anyone know the actual performance difference between the .308 Win and Nato7.62 Win. But if I asked that Zhukov would direct me to the tacked ammo FAQ at the top of the page

Link Posted: 12/1/2007 6:01:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fxntime:

Originally Posted By GHPorter:

Originally Posted By cckw:
Anyone object to this in a stainless barrel?
The steel used in bullet jackets is typically REALLY soft. You could use it in a plain steel barrel and not have any problems. Your stainless barrel won't object at all.


I used to believe this until I sectioned a bullet from some Hirtinburger and some MEN, it's far harder then I expected it to be as well as thicker.
Were you able to test the actual hardness of the jackets? I'll bet that, as made into bullets it was pretty hard to cut through, but that it deformed as easily as copper or gilding metal. That's the whole point in using steel jacket material-you can make it pretty darn soft, or harder if you want it to be for some purpose. Copper and gilding metal are not well suited to such variety.
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 6:15:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GHPorter:

Originally Posted By fxntime:

Originally Posted By GHPorter:

Originally Posted By cckw:
Anyone object to this in a stainless barrel?
The steel used in bullet jackets is typically REALLY soft. You could use it in a plain steel barrel and not have any problems. Your stainless barrel won't object at all.


I used to believe this until I sectioned a bullet from some Hirtinburger and some MEN, it's far harder then I expected it to be as well as thicker.
Were you able to test the actual hardness of the jackets? I'll bet that, as made into bullets it was pretty hard to cut through, but that it deformed as easily as copper or gilding metal. That's the whole point in using steel jacket material-you can make it pretty darn soft, or harder if you want it to be for some purpose. Copper and gilding metal are not well suited to such variety.


I just played around with a file checking how easily it cut into the steel, nothing technical but I was surprised how easy the file [new BTW] would skip on it as opposed to some plate steel I have lying about. I cut into some Wolf also, that cut pretty easily.

Also shooting thru some sectioned utility poles [new poles, cut off chunks that were not used] Copper Jacketed stuff like SA would flatten and deform while the steel Hirt would basically do nothing as far as deforming.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 6:50:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fxntime:
I just played around with a file checking how easily it cut into the steel, nothing technical but I was surprised how easy the file [new BTW] would skip on it as opposed to some plate steel I have lying about. I cut into some Wolf also, that cut pretty easily.

Also shooting thru some sectioned utility poles [new poles, cut off chunks that were not used] Copper Jacketed stuff like SA would flatten and deform while the steel Hirt would basically do nothing as far as deforming.
That is a lot harder than I'd have expected. Still, compared to barrel steel, I bet it's quite soft.
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