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Posted: 12/8/2013 8:56:10 PM EST
Does anyone happen to know of any online vendors currently selling complete uppers fitted with pistol gas systems for the 300BLK 16"BBL? So far I can only find completed uppers outfitted with carbine length gas systems.

I've found plenty of barrels being sold individually that are outfitted with pistol gas ports, but need to find one that is a completed upper, any help is greatly appreciated, I am new to all of this and don't know of the best places to be searching it seems...

Link Posted: 12/9/2013 1:19:26 AM EST
I don't know of any off hand. But honestly a carbine 16 inch works great for sub sonic and super sonic. My first 300 blk is built like that, and I can shoot subs and supers without the can on.
Link Posted: 12/9/2013 2:31:28 AM EST
Noveske.
Link Posted: 12/9/2013 3:40:56 AM EST
I had a board member make mine , it shoots so well that 14 members of out local range bought one from him as well.
Link Posted: 12/9/2013 11:47:17 AM EST
Mas Defense! They rock!
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 3:51:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2013 4:00:52 AM EST by XD45ACP]
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Originally Posted By CJP5:
Mas Defense! They rock!
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I love my Mas Defense barrel as well but they are carbine gas length and OP wants pistol.

eta. OP, I would open your search up to carbine gas. Many companies out there that are making barrels just not in pistol gas. AAC themselves use car gas length on there 16" barrels.
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 5:02:33 AM EST
OK am with the OP, I have said this before , I am by no means an expert and my experience is by no means all encompassing. But I have dealt with rifles in 300 AAC including CMMG x2 AACx2 1 Wilson and 2 costum cuts with Carbine length systems . None have been reliable with subsonics with the can on, never mind can off.
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 9:18:27 AM EST
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Originally Posted By garyd:
I don't know of any off hand. But honestly a carbine 16 inch works great for sub sonic and super sonic. My first 300 blk is built like that, and I can shoot subs and supers without the can on.
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yep same experience I have one 16 inch carbine with carbine gas and an 8.5 inch with pistol gas . I have no issues with either.
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 2:18:05 PM EST
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Originally Posted By jwb47:


yep same experience I have one 16 inch carbine with carbine gas and an 8.5 inch with pistol gas . I have no issues with either.
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Originally Posted By jwb47:
Originally Posted By garyd:
I don't know of any off hand. But honestly a carbine 16 inch works great for sub sonic and super sonic. My first 300 blk is built like that, and I can shoot subs and supers without the can on.


yep same experience I have one 16 inch carbine with carbine gas and an 8.5 inch with pistol gas . I have no issues with either.


This seems to be the eternal debate from what my research has turned up...

Some people have 16" BBL with Carbine gas systems and have run every bullet under the sun through their rifle with no issues whatsoever, subs, supers, cast, etc.... Others have had nothing but problems with subs and supers. Truly this seems like a gamble dependent upon the barrel maker, and most notably gas port size, with some people reporting gas systems as small as .087 and others as large as .12

Subs are NOT a concern of mine at the moment, only supers, however I plan on shooting cast supers, and this will mean I will probably be working with slightly less pressure

Funny to see MAS Defense mentioned on this thread, that is the company who I was planning on going with for my upper. Talked with Mario yesterday and he helped me out with getting my questions answered for the most part. He kept saying "the 300BLK is finicky to reload for man, very finicky" - oh well, challenge accepted I guess, plenty have gotten cast to run through their 30BLKs and I plan on joining their ranks soon.


So far it seems that many people have been able to achieve reliable functioning with supers in a 16"BBL w/ Carbine gas, perhaps I am just being paranoid about it, but if a pistol option were available I would surely hop on that and just get a Kies adjustable plug,

Someone here has to know of a vendor selling complete uppers w/ Pistol gas systems....
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 3:03:02 PM EST
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Originally Posted By nitrohuck:


This seems to be the eternal debate from what my research has turned up...

Some people have 16" BBL with Carbine gas systems and have run every bullet under the sun through their rifle with no issues whatsoever, subs, supers, cast, etc.... Others have had nothing but problems with subs and supers. Truly this seems like a gamble dependent upon the barrel maker, and most notably gas port size, with some people reporting gas systems as small as .087 and others as large as .12

Subs are NOT a concern of mine at the moment, only supers, however I plan on shooting cast supers, and this will mean I will probably be working with slightly less pressure

Funny to see MAS Defense mentioned on this thread, that is the company who I was planning on going with for my upper. Talked with Mario yesterday and he helped me out with getting my questions answered for the most part. He kept saying "the 300BLK is finicky to reload for man, very finicky" - oh well, challenge accepted I guess, plenty have gotten cast to run through their 30BLKs and I plan on joining their ranks soon.


So far it seems that many people have been able to achieve reliable functioning with supers in a 16"BBL w/ Carbine gas, perhaps I am just being paranoid about it, but if a pistol option were available I would surely hop on that and just get a Kies adjustable plug,

Someone here has to know of a vendor selling complete uppers w/ Pistol gas systems....
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Originally Posted By nitrohuck:
Originally Posted By jwb47:
Originally Posted By garyd:
I don't know of any off hand. But honestly a carbine 16 inch works great for sub sonic and super sonic. My first 300 blk is built like that, and I can shoot subs and supers without the can on.


yep same experience I have one 16 inch carbine with carbine gas and an 8.5 inch with pistol gas . I have no issues with either.


This seems to be the eternal debate from what my research has turned up...

Some people have 16" BBL with Carbine gas systems and have run every bullet under the sun through their rifle with no issues whatsoever, subs, supers, cast, etc.... Others have had nothing but problems with subs and supers. Truly this seems like a gamble dependent upon the barrel maker, and most notably gas port size, with some people reporting gas systems as small as .087 and others as large as .12

Subs are NOT a concern of mine at the moment, only supers, however I plan on shooting cast supers, and this will mean I will probably be working with slightly less pressure

Funny to see MAS Defense mentioned on this thread, that is the company who I was planning on going with for my upper. Talked with Mario yesterday and he helped me out with getting my questions answered for the most part. He kept saying "the 300BLK is finicky to reload for man, very finicky" - oh well, challenge accepted I guess, plenty have gotten cast to run through their 30BLKs and I plan on joining their ranks soon.


So far it seems that many people have been able to achieve reliable functioning with supers in a 16"BBL w/ Carbine gas, perhaps I am just being paranoid about it, but if a pistol option were available I would surely hop on that and just get a Kies adjustable plug,

Someone here has to know of a vendor selling complete uppers w/ Pistol gas systems....


buddha once said most of mans troubles on earth are caused by man himself . the same rings true for the 300 blackout . shooting subs in a 16 inch carbine has alot to do with powder selection . if you are planning on shooting super sonic only I dont know why you would have trouble with a carbine gassed gun. dont try to fix whats not broke and you will be happy.

Link Posted: 12/10/2013 5:45:22 PM EST
Carbine gas is not hit or miss with a good brand like AAC. They all work with factory ammo.

Noveske if you want pistol gas. But it won't help you shoot more types of subs. It will shoot the same ammo as an AAC. No more and no less.

And you don't need an adjustable gas block with pistol gas. Noveske doesn't even offer their Switchlock for it.

All of these problems were 300 Whisper issues before 300 Blackout fixed them.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 3:25:34 AM EST
The pistol length gas system will operate with a much wider selection of powder. There are several manufacturers putting out pistol length gas systems on 16" barrels, Noveske, CMMG, Wilson, and several more I cant remember off the top of the head.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 3:36:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/11/2013 3:38:01 AM EST by clifton]
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Originally Posted By talonxracer:
The pistol length gas system will operate with a much wider selection of powder. There are several manufacturers putting out pistol length gas systems on 16" barrels, Noveske, CMMG, Wilson, and several more I cant remember off the top of the head.
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You have the same function with either gas system as either should have come from the factory with the correct gas port size for factory ammo. What you mean is that pistol gas allows you to drill open the gas port to be oversized and then use faster powder if you choose. The part you are not saying is that then the gas port is too large for normal factory ammunition.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 4:41:58 AM EST
Not really, the carbine gas system requires a narrow selection of powder to operate, I have not opened up any pistol gas ports to run the wider selection of powders
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 4:45:54 AM EST
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Originally Posted By clifton:

You have the same function with either gas system as either should have come from the factory with the correct gas port size for factory ammo. What you mean is that pistol gas allows you to drill open the gas port to be oversized and then use faster powder if you choose. The part you are not saying is that then the gas port is too large for normal factory ammunition.
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Originally Posted By clifton:
Originally Posted By talonxracer:
The pistol length gas system will operate with a much wider selection of powder. There are several manufacturers putting out pistol length gas systems on 16" barrels, Noveske, CMMG, Wilson, and several more I cant remember off the top of the head.

You have the same function with either gas system as either should have come from the factory with the correct gas port size for factory ammo. What you mean is that pistol gas allows you to drill open the gas port to be oversized and then use faster powder if you choose. The part you are not saying is that then the gas port is too large for normal factory ammunition.


When the gas port is in the pistol position, and the correct diameter, it allows the utilization smaller charges, of faster powder, and reduces the sound signature.
When the gas port is in the pistol position,and the correct diameter, It allows the utilization of a broader range of powders , in instances of shortage (like now).

When the gas port is in the carbine position it requires a heavier charge of slower burning powder to run subsonic velocities reliably, which results in more residue and more sound.

I have run no shortage (literally thousands of rounds) of high velocity ammo through a pistol ported barrels without issue. YMMV
When the blk/30-221/WTF was the Whisper virtually all barrels were pistol position, #36 drill, gas port.

There are adjustable gas blocks for the nervous among us as well as heavier buffers.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 9:41:34 AM EST
Subs will not be a major concern of mine given that where I live in Vermont it is illegal to own a suppressor.

If a carbine length system is A-Okay for super sonic loads, specifically supersonic CAST loads, then I am comfortable going with a carbine length setup.

The debate on cast bullets seems to be a foggy one with no clear "right way" to go about it. Some say pistol is necessary, others say carbine will fit the bill just as well...
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 11:18:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/11/2013 11:19:30 AM EST by talonxracer]
I too thought I was going to shoot supers only, but those darn subs are addictive as meth! And being into casting makes it very cost affective, even without a suppressor there is a substantially reduced report that makes a day popping steel(love that delay of contact ping) more comfy. I do shoot a decent amount of supers as well, just don't limit yourself, the 300blk is intended to run both, even from a carbine gassed rifle.....
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 2:48:25 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Subsahnik:
When the gas port is in the pistol position, and the correct diameter, it allows the utilization smaller charges, of faster powder, and reduces the sound signature.
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Originally Posted By Subsahnik:
When the gas port is in the pistol position, and the correct diameter, it allows the utilization smaller charges, of faster powder, and reduces the sound signature.

It is true that pistol length gas ports can be made to work with smaller charges of faster powder. However, the gas port size that would work would *not* be normal because it would be too large to shoot supersonic suppressed with reliability, and so would no longer be compatible with factory ammunition. True, you could fix that with an adjustable gas block if you wanted to and didn't mind the downsides.

Originally Posted By Subsahnik:
When the gas port is in the pistol position,and the correct diameter, It allows the utilization of a broader range of powders , in instances of shortage (like now).

You would have to make the gas port over-sized to work with those special powders. I say special because they are not used for factory subsonic ammunition. Once you made it over-sized to work with such powders, it would no longer be good for normal full power ammunition. Again, you could make it work with an adjustable gas block.

Originally Posted By Subsahnik:When the gas port is in the carbine position it requires a heavier charge of slower burning powder to run subsonic velocities reliably, which results in more residue and more sound.

You are speaking as a reloader, but only 10% of shooters reload. The reason why 300 BLK factory ammo is like that is because that powder - the ever popular A1680 for example, presents the rifle with a gas impulse that is close to what supersonic ammunition does. This is the entire reason why 300 AAC Blackout can shoot supersonic and subsonic mixed in a magazine without needing an adjustable gas block - something that you could never count on with 300 Whisper as there was no mass supplier of ammunition to build a standard around. You are arguing to go back to the 300 Whisper days of needing an adjustable gas block to change ammunition types. Now actually, some people would want that because as you point out, there are some advantages to it - but very few people would want to compromise their full power ammo compatibility. If 300 AAC Blackout required an adjustable gas block to work, the military would have no interest (what happens if you are on the wrong setting - your rifle jams? How do you verify and change your setting in the dark?), and consumers would have much less interest.

Originally Posted By Subsahnik:I have run no shortage (literally thousands of rounds) of high velocity ammo through a pistol ported barrels without issue. YMMV
When the blk/30-221/WTF was the Whisper virtually all barrels were pistol position, #36 drill, gas port..

That is the 300 Whisper way of doing things, and viable, but different. A #36 drill is way too large for supersonic ammo. Seriously, that is 0.1065" when for factory ammo you want to be in the 0.086" range, depending on the buffer. You are dooming the rifle to require an adjustable gas block.. Noveske used to make 300 Fireball barrels that way, and abandoned it to have the smaller 300 AAC Blackout type of gas port and then said how much better the new way was for them.

Pistol port barrels are great. But the correct / standard gas port size for them will not offer the ability to shoot more types of subsonic powders over carbine gas, unless you make the port over-sized and then require the use an adjustable gas block.

Link Posted: 12/12/2013 5:13:54 AM EST
True that you may need a adjustable gas block to shoot supersonics so that's why the op of this thread needs to figure out for himself what he will be doing.

Does the op
Reload?
Plan to shoot supersonics?
Plan to ever do a sbr?

If a yes then the pistol length will be ideal since it can be cut back and opened up if needed.
If the op plans to shoot supersonics and not cut it back ever then a longer system would be ok.

Also after owning quite a few of both I have found the better way to do it is pistol gas with a adj block since when shooting both suppressed an unsuppressed the longer gas system seems too un reliable for my tastes due to short stroking ect. "With both factory and reloads in subs and supers"
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 11:11:27 AM EST
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Originally Posted By titleiiredneck:Also after owning quite a few of both I have found the better way to do it is pistol gas with a adj block since when shooting both suppressed an unsuppressed the longer gas system seems too un reliable for my tastes due to short stroking ect. "With both factory and reloads in subs and supers"
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Sounds like either your gas port was too small or you were using a heavy buffer. There is no hit to reliability for 16 inch carbine gas when using factory ammo unless it was a mis-configured rifle.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 1:15:43 PM EST
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Originally Posted By clifton:


Sounds like either your gas port was too small or you were using a heavy buffer. There is no hit to reliability for 16 inch carbine gas when using factory ammo unless it was a mis-configured rifle.
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Originally Posted By clifton:
Originally Posted By titleiiredneck:Also after owning quite a few of both I have found the better way to do it is pistol gas with a adj block since when shooting both suppressed an unsuppressed the longer gas system seems too un reliable for my tastes due to short stroking ect. "With both factory and reloads in subs and supers"


Sounds like either your gas port was too small or you were using a heavy buffer. There is no hit to reliability for 16 inch carbine gas when using factory ammo unless it was a mis-configured rifle.


It was a AAC upper Everything was to the suggested spec and even tried diffrent buffers. After doing this for such a long time, I know what to look for.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 3:37:38 PM EST
The AAC 16 inch upper uses a 3 oz buffer, normal spring, and nothing weird like extra power hammer springs. If it doesn't work with that with actual factory ammo (like Remington or Hornady or Barnes) then maybe it has a gas leak.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 4:24:05 PM EST
perhaps it failed to " present the rifle with a gas impulse that is close to what supersonic ammunition does "
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 4:43:47 PM EST
Funny thing is I have had several 300 whisper uppers with the pistol gas for over 20 years and they run great suppressed an un suppressed
then came the 300 blackout with the carbine gas with more problems than the pistol port versions. I have fixed dozens of the carbine port barrels to make them work as most had too small of a gas port or very picky with the powder used for handloads and even some factory ammo, very few pistol ports have problems.
I have made several blackout barrels but with the pistol port and they all run great and less picky with powder and factory ammo and yes I have compared to the carbine port.
JD Jones tested many gas ports at several spots in the barrel and found the most reliable location was the pistol port, even one of the top
AR barrel makers Noveske found the pistol gas to be better and changed all his barrels to pistol.
The reason many other barrel makers went with the carbine gas was because then the gas block would be out of the carbine hand guard
or work with the carbine hand guard and get more sales, if they started with the pistol gas sales would have been less due too the gas
block needing to be under the hand guard and only floating hand guards would work with ease.
The 300 whisper is no different than the 300 blackout as far as function and reliability with the same gas ports
and neither is better, only thing that makes the blackout any better is it went sami and JD Jones wanted the 300 whisper/300-221/300 fireball/blackout/wtf
all to himself.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 6:20:12 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Redtazdog:
Funny thing is I have had several 300 whisper uppers with the pistol gas for over 20 years and they run great suppressed an un suppressed
then came the 300 blackout with the carbine gas with more problems than the pistol port versions. I have fixed dozens of the carbine port barrels to make them work as most had too small of a gas port or very picky with the powder used for handloads and even some factory ammo, very few pistol ports have problems.
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Originally Posted By Redtazdog:
Funny thing is I have had several 300 whisper uppers with the pistol gas for over 20 years and they run great suppressed an un suppressed
then came the 300 blackout with the carbine gas with more problems than the pistol port versions. I have fixed dozens of the carbine port barrels to make them work as most had too small of a gas port or very picky with the powder used for handloads and even some factory ammo, very few pistol ports have problems.


It is true that one or more companies put out 300 AAC Blackout rifles with undersized gas ports. They obviously didn't bother to invest in their own R&D, and didn't even want to spend $1000 to copy an AAC brand upper, which is pretty pathetic. And the customers who saved money by buying their lower-cost products got a bad product.

Originally Posted By Redtazdog:Noveske found the pistol gas to be better and changed all his barrels to pistol.


True. But with a smaller gas port size than what people historically used for 300 Whisper. And in fact with a smaller gas port size than even they used to use when they made 300 Fireball barrels. So yes, Noveske did a good thing.

Originally Posted By Redtazdog:The reason many other barrel makers went with the carbine gas was because then the gas block would be out of the carbine hand guard or work with the carbine hand guard and get more sales, if they started with the pistol gas sales would have been less due too the gas
block needing to be under the hand guard and only floating hand guards would work with ease.


DS Arms is the only company that I can remember that didn't free-float their uppers. Their uppers are good and reliable, and were only $330 without a bolt carrier group.

Originally Posted By Redtazdog:The 300 whisper is no different than the 300 blackout as far as function and reliability with the same gas ports
and neither is better, only thing that makes the blackout any better is it went sami and JD Jones wanted the 300 whisper/300-221/300 fireball/blackout/wtf
all to himself.


Well - yes and no. It is true that 300 Whisper, as done today with Hornady ammo is the same as 300 Blackout, but 300 Whisper factory ammo before 300 Blackout was just Cor-Bon, and that was loaded too long to feed reliably, and then there was no consensus on what type of powder to use. JD went with requiring an adjustable gas block, and still promotes that.

300 Blackout came along and brought custom bullets with better shapes for feeding, had factory ammo that was not loaded overly-long, established gas ports set up to not be over-gassed with supersonic suppressed ammo, and then Remington came out with subsonic ammo that worked with that same gas port size without being under gassed.

So the rise of 300 Blackout is not just because it was in SAAMI but also because it solved some nagging reliability issues.
Link Posted: 12/13/2013 3:08:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/13/2013 3:09:33 AM EST by Redtazdog]
The 300 whisper is no different than the 300 blackout as far as function and reliability with the same gas ports
and neither is better, only thing that makes the blackout any better is it went sami and JD Jones wanted the 300 whisper/300-221/300 fireball/blackout/wtf
all to himself.

Well - yes and no. It is true that 300 Whisper, as done today with Hornady ammo is the same as 300 Blackout, but 300 Whisper factory ammo before 300 Blackout was just Cor-Bon, and that was loaded too long to feed reliably, and then there was no consensus on what type of powder to use.if you don't know what powder to use then you buy more of the factory ammo is what they wanted for sales JD went with requiring an adjustable gas block, and still promotes that.
Pistol and carbine gas both without a suppressor with hi velocity and subsonic ammo run stronger with a adjustable gas block

300 Blackout came along and brought custom bullets with better shapes for feeding, had factory ammo that was not loaded overly-long, established gas ports set up to not be over-gassed with supersonic suppressed ammo, and then Remington came out with subsonic ammo that worked with that same gas port size without being under gassed.
I was talking about barrels and the cartridge itself not the factory ammo that some made good and some made bad

So the rise of 300 Blackout is not just because it was in SAAMI but also because it solved some nagging reliability issues.
I have never had any nagging reliability issues with the whisper or blackout as long as it had a pistol port and the size that works
how many whisper and blackout barrels/uppers have you had in the past 20+ years and how many blackout barrels have you made ?

Link Posted: 12/13/2013 4:44:35 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Redtazdog:
So the rise of 300 Blackout is not just because it was in SAAMI but also because it solved some nagging reliability issues.
I have never had any nagging reliability issues with the whisper or blackout as long as it had a pistol port and the size that works
how many whisper and blackout barrels/uppers have you had in the past 20+ years and how many blackout barrels have you made ?

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.....while I havent been running the w/300-221/blk/wtf as long as tazdog , the ones I did/do run NEVER had reliability issues , particularly the nagging sort.

My best guess is the rise/development of the 300blk can be attributed to profit , more so than any other reason.

Link Posted: 12/13/2013 10:21:23 AM EST
I don't remember how many I have made. Maybe around 23, but it could be a few more or less.

I already explained the reliability issues and how Blackout solved them. OAL was too long on the only factory ammo, and an adjustable gas block was required to be reliable. There were Whisper users who knew this and fixed these things on their own, but it was not common practice, so each person had to learn these workarounds on their own and from dozens of hours of Internet reading. The vast majority of the shooting public is not going to dive into it that way. So not just SAAMI, but also fixing these problems, was the key.
Link Posted: 12/13/2013 11:09:37 AM EST
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Originally Posted By clifton:
I don't remember how many I have made. Maybe around 23, but it could be a few more or less.

I already explained the reliability issues and how Blackout solved them. OAL was too long on the only factory ammo, and an adjustable gas block was required to be reliable. There were Whisper users who knew this and fixed these things on their own, but it was not common practice, so each person had to learn these workarounds on their own and from dozens of hours of Internet reading. The vast majority of the shooting public is not going to dive into it that way. So not just SAAMI, but also fixing these problems, was the key.
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....so the fault of the ammunition's oal being long, was to say the chamber it was loaded to shoot from, was short? Thats funny! ,

and again, I never had a feeding issue with or without an adj gas block, with the port in the pistol position, subsonic or otherwise.
Link Posted: 12/13/2013 1:04:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/13/2013 1:06:57 PM EST by nitrohuck]
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Originally Posted By titleiiredneck:
True that you may need a adjustable gas block to shoot supersonics so that's why the op of this thread needs to figure out for himself what he will be doing.

Does the op
Reload?
Plan to shoot supersonics?
Plan to ever do a sbr?

If a yes then the pistol length will be ideal since it can be cut back and opened up if needed.
If the op plans to shoot supersonics and not cut it back ever then a longer system would be ok.

Also after owning quite a few of both I have found the better way to do it is pistol gas with a adj block since when shooting both suppressed an unsuppressed the longer gas system seems too un reliable for my tastes due to short stroking ect. "With both factory and reloads in subs and supers"
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To answer some questions:

~ YES I WILL BE RELOADING. Primarily I will be reloading SUPERSONIC CAST rounds. Now perhaps some of you see why I am being finicky about this, as less pressures are generated with cast bullets and my plan is to use RL-7 powder which pretty much maxes out in the case around 17-18grs from what I understand.

~ MY MAIN CONCERN is that ~17grs of RL-7 pushing cast bullets ranging 150-200grs will not generate enough pressure to give reliable feeding in a CARBINE system. This load gets the bullet going only about ~1500FPS, and while I am not certain of the pressures generated, I have a feeling it will be just on the cusp of "enough or not enough", it will be a very tight window. People with pistol systems can use this load just fine, but for a carbine system I will need to have a port size of at least .110" in order to get this load to cycle (from what I have read from others who's opinions are reliable).

~ I intend to shoot supersonic cast, and if possible, sub-sonic cast, but that is a bonus if it works out. My only true concern is cast bullets at supersonic speed (plus if cast works then FMJ inevitably will).

~ I HAVE NO INTENTION OF FIRING FACTORY SUBS/SUPERS. Can't find the ammo, can't afford the ammo, but can make it for $0.10 a pop at my home, so this is a no brainer.

~ I also have no intention of turning this into an SBR project. It will be 16" and if I go shorter in the future I will most likely buy a new upper entirely to swap out. My state of VT doesn't allow suppressors, so you see why an SBR/Suppressed project isn't high on my priority list.

All I need to know is that I will be investing $600 into an upper that will cycle these cast rounds on a carbine length system, if it will not, then I need to find a different alternative.
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