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Posted: 5/20/2005 7:38:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 6:39:18 AM EST by AR15KittyKat]
Weapon: RRA M4gery, Arms_Sir 50M w/ Aimpoint
Ammo: Rem 55gr PSP (PowerSoftPoint), and Win 223R1VP 55gr fmj


Well, my wife is due for our 2nd baby in one week, so I told her I need to get another hog
hunt in before I am stuck at home for a long time, she said have fun, sweet. Can't go to the
chicken ranch like I used to due to the landowner owner going thru some rough personnal
affairs, I've searched around the net for a hog hunt. Since it's so short notice, many hunt
ranch could not fit me in, until I talked to Joe Langley @ Langley Ranch. he said his ranch's
layout have some good dense covers, hard to hunt wild boars, but I'll see hogs! I am booked.
I was out of Q3131A ammo, and no stores around here have any due the war on terror, so I am
stuck w/ what I have in stock, Rem 55gr PSP, and Win .223 55gr fmj. Headed out for the ranch
3am, and arrived 6am. Met Joe, disccussed some strategy, and we're headed for a stand.

As we were walked toward a stand, saw a ~150# boar from a good distance, wanted to closer
for a better shot, but the boar was spooked, froze and looked our way. I decided not to get
closer, but take the shot then, an ~80yards shot. Steadied the red-dot on the neck, Boom, the
55gr PSP hit the neck, the boar dropped instantly. Got closer to about 15yards, (Edit to Add for clarification: Incapacitated, but not dead) boar still grunting, double tap in the lungs, still alive put one round in the head, he was dead.
The 55gr PSP bullets expanded well, made pinky size entry wounds, created small wounds channels on internals, and rested on opposite side of body.





I wanted hunt some more, so Joe putted me on 12' elevated archery platform w/ no sides
overlooking a hog trail. After some time, heard some movement, but not coming from the trail. As
I scout around, saw a pack of about 12 hogs at 7oclock at 65yards, well covered, so no shots. As I quietly turned my body to ready for a shot, these hogs got spooked very easily even by the slightest noise, all froze, ears & hair up in alert mode. They stayed frozen solid for a couple of minutes, then made sprint for larger covers.

I stood up, picked out the largest boar, ~180#, lead the muzzle a bit, and Boom. the 55gr PSP hit the gut, I see blood, the boar fell down behind some large trees, I knew bullet placement was bad, I put 5 more quick rounds in the tree area, but the boar was well hidden. The boar dissappeared!
Radio-ed Joe in for assistance in tracking the wounded boar. Found blood at the initial shot spot, but no more blood trail. Since the soft points were making small wound channels, I grabbed a mag in my backpack loaded with 55gr fmj, hoped this round might yaw & fragment like all my previous Q3131A.

After some time of tracking, we saw the same pack of hogs w/ the wounded boar lagging behind. This wounded boar is not going to elude me again. ~45yards, I gave him a tripple tap, Boom-Boom-Boom, he dropped dead and rolled down a 20' ravine into a small creek. Two rounds hit center mass, 3rd round hit high near the spine, breaking it. All rounds yawed and tumbled. but never fragmented.



55gr fmj yawed & tumbled, broke spine, never fragmented, good damage.


bullets found - 3 soft points, 1 bent fmj near spine


It was an exciting hunt and Joe Langley was a great gentleman, true honest Texan, when he says there's hogs, there's hogs, provided you don't gut shot like I did, almost lost my wounded boar I will surely hunt w/ Joe again soon. Would I use soft points to hunt hogs, negative. Q3131A will be my 1st choice, 2nd would be the Win. 223 55gr fmj did much more damage than the soft points as it yawed & tumbled though they did not fragment.

The Langley Ranch


Link Posted: 5/20/2005 8:00:09 PM EST
Sounds like a good time.

I have noticed you use a lot of the 55 grain stuff, have you ever moved up in weight? perhaps the 69 grains or the 75 taps? Just wondering if they would give you better results on hogs, those teeth look mean and I saw the thread where one charged you.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 8:04:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/20/2005 8:07:53 PM EST by AR15KittyKat]

Originally Posted By marinesg1012:
Sounds like a good time.

I have noticed you use a lot of the 55 grain stuff, have you ever moved up in weight? perhaps the 69 grains or the 75 taps? Just wondering if they would give you better results on hogs, those teeth look mean and I saw the thread where one charged you.



Thanks, and I like to stick w/ 55gr cause of my 1/9 twist, faster velocity, more fragments and more easily available than 69gr or higher. Those boars had 1-1.5" cutters, they could do some damage.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 8:46:06 PM EST
Thanks for the info, I am going to have to get out and try killing some of these things.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:15:30 AM EST
Sounds like a War on Boars! You're having way too much fun. Can you ship some of those things up to Minnesota and let 'em loose?

John

-----------------
6.5 Grendel: Twice the Lead of 5.56; Shoots Flatter than 7.62
www.65grendel.com
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:19:17 AM EST
I'll be down at the same ranch in a few weeks. Looks like good hunting!

Thanks for the update. Now I know what to look forward too!

BTW great pigs, and good shooting.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:36:25 AM EST
Thanks for the info. Now I know what rounds NOT to use for hunting hogs.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:54:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15KittyKat:

Originally Posted By marinesg1012:
Sounds like a good time.

I have noticed you use a lot of the 55 grain stuff, have you ever moved up in weight? perhaps the 69 grains or the 75 taps? Just wondering if they would give you better results on hogs, those teeth look mean and I saw the thread where one charged you.



Thanks, and I like to stick w/ 55gr cause of my 1/9 twist, faster velocity, more fragments and more easily available than 69gr or higher. Those boars had 1-1.5" cutters, they could do some damage.


Nice piggies.


What about trying some 70gr barnes triple shocks or a 60gr partitian? Seems like yer using to light of a round as evidanced by the need for multiple shots. If you can legaly hunt with non expanding ammo, why not use the best you can get, like the 68gr load from black hills? Or a 64gr powerpoint?

This isn't a knock or anything just wondering.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:34:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 6:34:49 AM EST by CJan_NH]
I feel kind of stupid asking this, but what's the difference between a wild boar and a hog? I was under the impression that a wild boar was just a pig that didn't live on a farm

Please go easy on me-it's my first time

ETA: Great pics, by the way!
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:42:07 AM EST
I was hoping you were seeing this photoman!!!! PORK!!!!! We need some of that!!!!

Thanks for the post ar15 kitty kat. So you're saying the Winnie white box 55 fmj did more damage than soft points? Wow. I always wondered about that. The ammo oracle clearly states that a round will yaw. Even when going through an orange. It makes sense and I'm glad to know it worked for you.

I do have to agree with mark though, the heavier bthp's would probably do a little better. You should try some and prove us right or wrong. Your gun should easily stabilize the 68/69 bullets. Up here, gander mountain is carrying the 68's in black hills blue box. Or you can order online. From midway. I know they're more expensive though. Maybe I should just send you a box of 68's because neither one of my uppers likes them. In fact, they hate them.

I also like Q3131a, because my new rifle likes it!!!!
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:49:11 AM EST
Thanks for sharing your info and great pigs. Been thinking about what to bring to the lease and I was planing on using some XM855 for hogs and bought some 60gr. Partitions for deer. Your story really made me feel like I am choosing the right ammo. Hope to have some pics as successful as yours.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 7:12:19 AM EST

I feel kind of stupid asking this, but what's the difference between a wild boar and a hog? I was under the impression that a wild boar was just a pig that didn't live on a farm

Wild boar is essentially a wild or feral hog, not to be confused with a domesticated hog, these things are mean and can run like the wind, they can...and sometimes do come after you.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 7:20:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By Wingman26:
..these things are mean and can run like the wind, they can...and sometimes do come after you.

Who says you don't need a 30 round mag for hunting?
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 8:29:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 8:31:14 AM EST by AR15KittyKat]
The reason I haven't used heavier rounds cause I like to hunt what I practice shooting & zeroed in my AR with, and Q3131A are cheap, always have brought ham in my cooler. I am sure the heavier rds may do well on hogs, but my AR just loves te Q3131A, so do the hogs

Hopefully a fellow ARFcom hunt hogs w/ heavier rds & share this info. w/ us

wgjhsafT:
Joe L. will bend over backwards to make your hunt a success, good luck on your hunt, and please share the info. w/ us, maybe you'll be using 60+gr ammo ?

Photoman:
I think the 55gr Q3131A is sufficient on hogs, all my previous hunt, 1-2 rds at neck/head
or heart/lung zone brought them down everytime, though many hunters may let their game die within a couple minutes, I like to run up and do a couple taps for humane quick kill, plus a couple taps is pretty fun before the hunt is over.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 8:41:46 AM EST
Maybe I am a stupid Masshole, but I don't understand hunting with an AR-15.

Compund bow, Muzzleloader, Bolt Action Rifle, all these I can understand. But an AR-15

If you cannot kill it with the first shot, then you should not have taken it in my opinion. Why did you not just bring a Beta-C drum
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 8:58:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheSaint2004:
Maybe I am a stupid Masshole, but I don't understand hunting with an AR-15.

Compund bow, Muzzleloader, Bolt Action Rifle, all these I can understand. But an AR-15

If you cannot kill it with the first shot, then you should not have taken it in my opinion. Why did you not just bring a Beta-C drum

I've read quite a few of AR15KittyKat's hog hunting threads and he seems to know what he's doing. If the tool works, why change it? I'm sure a .308 would take down a hog but that sure seems like overkill.

AR15KittyKat, have you ever had a hog get away that you shot w/out killing it?
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:00:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheSaint2004:
Maybe I am a stupid Masshole, but I don't understand hunting with an AR-15.

Compund bow, Muzzleloader, Bolt Action Rifle, all these I can understand. But an AR-15

If you cannot kill it with the first shot, then you should not have taken it in my opinion. Why did you not just bring a Beta-C drum



Thats a big can of worms trust me. Feel free to start another thread on that and I'm sure a good number of folks will be in to argue one side or the other. But just like any rifle for hunting, you have to select the proper ammo and know your rifle.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:08:25 AM EST
nice take as always!!!

if you were closer by i might have joined ya
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:10:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15KittyKat:
The reason I haven't used heavier rounds cause I like to hunt what I practice shooting & zeroed in my AR with, and Q3131A are cheap, always have brought ham in my cooler. I am sure the heavier rds may do well on hogs, but my AR just loves te Q3131A, so do the hogs

Hopefully a fellow ARFcom hunt hogs w/ heavier rds & share this info. w/ us

wgjhsafT:
Joe L. will bend over backwards to make your hunt a success, good luck on your hunt, and please share the info. w/ us, maybe you'll be using 60+gr ammo ?

Photoman:
I think the 55gr Q3131A is sufficient on hogs, all my previous hunt, 1-2 rds at neck/head
or heart/lung zone brought them down everytime, though many hunters may let their game die within a couple minutes, I like to run up and do a couple taps for humane quick kill, plus a couple taps is pretty fun before the hunt is over.



Thanks for the reply. I'm not a big fan of the lighter SP ammo either. I know the 60gr partitions work great on hogs, I've got a lot of feedback from guys about them, but pretty much everyone says the same thing about the55gr SP ammo. It just doesn't do the damage to cause a quick death. At least you can use FMJ as I think the right FMJ(M193 or Q3131A) is better than most of the 55gr SP ammo out there do to fragmentation causing more internal damage than the SP can do.

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:16:18 AM EST
A weapon is a weapon. They are all deadly. Some of us like to hunt with our favorite gun.

So a browning bar with the boss in .308 or .30-06 is ok because it's a "hunting" rifle but an ar isn't. That just don't sit right with me. Those compound bows are sooooooooo deadly, your deer drops right in it's tracks every time. You know that's bs. Guys that bow hunt end up wounding more deer than AR hunters. Those muzzleloaders ar so accurate that you're sure to kill your quarry much quicker, than an ar. Because of all that lead and all. Regardless of if you yank your shot under pressure. And in case that hog charges you, you can reload in a couple of minutes. No problem. I just don't get it.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:20:38 AM EST
Hey mark, from what I can tell in our state, you don't have to use Soft Point for small game. Deer hunting it definitely states non expanding ammo is out. But I can't find that in the small game manual. I've also never seen anything on mag capacity. Although, who knows, that may change this year.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:35:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 9:36:44 AM EST by photoman]

Originally Posted By JJREA:
Hey mark, from what I can tell in our state, you don't have to use Soft Point for small game. Deer hunting it definitely states non expanding ammo is out. But I can't find that in the small game manual. I've also never seen anything on mag capacity. Although, who knows, that may change this year.



I checked with the DNR warden here and he said the expanding ammo hunting goes for all hunting, remember even a .22lr solid will "expand". I've send an email to a higher up DNR person for clarification on this but have yet to recieve an email back.

ETA: one of the guys I work withwas just hired bythe DNR as a part time warden, I'll ask him to look into it for me too.

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:42:53 AM EST
Thats great you used an AR, but shouldnt thes posts me in some hunting forum?
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:20:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheSaint2004:
Maybe I am a stupid Masshole, but I don't understand hunting with an AR-15.

Compund bow, Muzzleloader, Bolt Action Rifle, all these I can understand. But an AR-15

If you cannot kill it with the first shot, then you should not have taken it in my opinion. Why did you not just bring a Beta-C drum



How 'bout you know what your talking about before you make comments? Our state conservation dept specifically recommends an autoloading rifle of some type for boar hunting. There's a reason for that. They are not gentle woodland creatures that will lope off to bleed to death after being shot. They are aggressive, foul tempered animals that will just as likely charge you to inflict massive damage before they drop as to run away. Try getting that bolt gun reloaded, aimed, steadied and fired before a boar can cover 50-100yds knowing this is the last chance you are going to get before you visit a hospital.

Seen quite a few hunting stories of people with the "Thor's Hammer" 30-06 who had to take follow up shots or trail an animal for a half day too if the first shot missed the vitals.

My dad walked up to many a Deer and put one in its head when it was on the ground but not yet dead. He didn't care for deer head trophies and so he put the animal down quickly if it was still alive when he got there. Even the mighty '06 doesn't make things dead just because it knocked them down.

I would say I'd skip those 55gr soft points in the future. I kind of wonder how the 65gr Sierra bullet might work here. It's a SP but carries a little more umph to the target.

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:36:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 10:39:49 AM EST by AR15KittyKat]

Originally Posted By TheSaint2004:
Maybe I am a stupid Masshole, but I don't understand hunting with an AR-15.

Compund bow, Muzzleloader, Bolt Action Rifle, all these I can understand. But an AR-15

If you cannot kill it with the first shot, then you should not have taken it in my opinion. Why did you not just bring a Beta-C drum



If you don't like to hunt w/ an AR, then DON'T, just don't tell other people what weapon they should hunt with, there are plenty of people who love to hunt w/ their ARs. I've known plenty of bow, bolt-action hunters that have lost their wounded game due to poor shot placement or poor selection of ammo, so it not the AR !

If you send me a C-drum, I'll use it on my next hog just for you and I'll empty the whole thing on a hog too, what a typical Liberal Masshole

MattB:
I've never lost a wounded game in the 15yrs of hunting, and in the 1.5yrs of hog hunting w/ an AR, have never lost a hog either, that's about 20+ hogs.



Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:41:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15KittyKat:
I've never lost a wounded game in the 15yrs of hunting, and in the 1.5yrs of hog hunting w/ an AR, have never lost a hog either, that's about 20+ hogs.

From reading your posts, that's exactly what I suspected. Maybe now that that fact is out in the open, the naysayers will simmer down.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:51:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By Matt_B:

Originally Posted By AR15KittyKat:
I've never lost a wounded game in the 15yrs of hunting, and in the 1.5yrs of hog hunting w/ an AR, have never lost a hog either, that's about 20+ hogs.

From reading your posts, that's exactly what I suspected. Maybe now that that fact is out in the open, the naysayers will simmer down.



Yah right, they'll never simmer down they will continue to try and tell those of us that hunt with an AR that we shouldn't or shoudln't be allowed to or that were unethical for doing so.

Just another showing of the diferances that devide the shooting/hunting community is all
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 11:38:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 11:42:19 AM EST by AR15KittyKat]

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
I would say I'd skip those 55gr soft points in the future. I kind of wonder how the 65gr Sierra bullet might work here. It's a SP but carries a little more umph to the target.



I would assume the 65gr SP Sierra's jacket are thicker than of the 55gr SP, so it would penetrate deeper, and may not expand larger. The 55gr SP weakness is not a penetration issue (they penetrated all internals), but .223 bullet can only expand so much, and limited wound channel.

I & Joe noticed how small the wound channels on the SP, but were in awe of the damage the tumbling 55gr fmj. 2 of the fmj tumbled & exited, and 3rd broke the spine & stopped, so the 55gr fmj penetrated plenty deep.

All of the Q3131A previous hog hunts penetrated deep on large hogs, fragmented and made soup of the heart/lung zones, and quick death resulted.

Now the 69gr+ fmj rds that the military are using, from ballitics gel, those rounds frag & created larger wounds than of the XM193 or Q3131A.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 11:52:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 11:53:31 AM EST by AR15KittyKat]

Originally Posted By Dace:
Thats great you used an AR, but shouldnt thes posts me in some hunting forum?



I think a thread like this displays the lethality of an AR, accuracy potential of a carbine w/ a good optic setup, and ammo selection effects of wounds.

Moderators have seemed to agreed these threads have merits here, cause they haven't asked me to move them yet
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:09:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15KittyKat:

Originally Posted By Dace:
Thats great you used an AR, but shouldnt thes posts me in some hunting forum?


I think a thread like this displays the lethality of an AR, accuracy potential of a carbine w/ a good optic setup, and ammo selection effects of wounds.

Moderators have seemed to agreed these threads have merits here, cause they haven't asked me to move them yet

Heck, I've never been hunting in my life but reading this thread makes me want to go get some fresh ribs.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:15:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 12:27:15 PM EST by MSG]
The thread definately has a place here, and it illustrates the lack of lethality of the AR in this particular situation.....4 or 5 shots to drop an animal is hardly effective and might go against some folks hunting ethics. That might be the source of some of the negative replies...not so much against AR hunting, but against the load and number of shots required...not to mention the act of dumping rounds into an area in hopes of hitting an unseen target. That gets other hunters dead.

That being said, I bet it would take more than one arrow to drop one too and at least you always recover your animal.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:30:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 12:37:25 PM EST by AR15KittyKat]

Originally Posted By MSG:
4 or 5 shots to drop a pig is hardly effective. I bet it would take more than one arrow too though.



1st boar, one shot dropped it in its tracks, follow up shots cause for humane kill, it's still breathing, not running.

2nd boar, any gut shot by any caliber will mostly be a non-kill shot.
Later, 3 quick taps dropped the boar (doesn't not mean the boar would not have dropped if 2 other taps were not delivered), why not just one shot, cause I am so used to multiple taps when I feel I am able to do it acurately.

How many time have you shot a game w/ an accurate shot, and the animal is laying there but still breathing, gurgling in its own blood? I have witnessed many, and most time hunters will leave as is for minutes until the animal died slowly, a downed animal does not equal instant death or not breathing. Seasoned hunters will know what I am talking about. I will always get up to the game quick put an end to its pain quick.



Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:32:26 PM EST
great hunting!

that last boar shot was kinda graphic
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:36:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 12:42:09 PM EST by AR15KittyKat]

Originally Posted By MSG:
folks hunting ethics. That might be the source of some of the negative replies...not so much against AR hunting, but against the load and number of shots required...not to mention the act of dumping rounds into an area in hopes of hitting an unseen target. That gets other hunters dead.



I was the only hunter on the ranch, on an elevated 12' platform, shooting downward, so my backstop was the ground & tree, not other hunters The only boar behind the trees was the wounded boar, the whole pack was gone as soon as the boar was hit. You think the ranch owner would allow me back to the ranch if I dump my mag into a crowd of hogs? Sheeesss, non hunter, couch commando playing quarterback from his computer.
Don't comment on a situation you don't know about, if you read my post more carefully, you would know that
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 1:03:41 PM EST
WOW alot of people sure did put their foot in their mouthes. I've been hunting hogs for a looooong time with an Ar, I use a 20inch and I use q3131a, real hunters know game doesn't die on the first shot. Well ok, in upland and with ducks and geese, the shotguns kill 'em 99% of the time of the first hit(well not always the geese), but useing 308's and 270's on deer and pigs, they run the same, the AR does more damage to them than any of the mushrooming rounds from the other calibers, I've seen it , now there are some rifles that will put deer and pigs down in a single shot, the 300 winchester magnum comes to mind, but that's over kill, well to some people including me it is. Useing fragmenting ammo and aiming right above the shoulder blade will kill either one, everytime. I go out and hunt pig with my AR and my 1911 with 230+p's(cor-bons) because pigs come out of the underbrush and attack your ass, I laugh at the thought of a muzzle loader, people go out with dogs for a reason, to find the pigs and not let the pigs sneak up on the hunters, yea some people go out with knives and hunt pigs, but they do it with dogs. The Ar is more than enouph for pigs and deer and people. I've seen my dad dispatch a pig at 35, 40yds with a center of mass hit, the pig instantly went down and lay kicking it's leg, my dad walked up and shot it's quivering body behind the ear at about 7yds and ended it, the pig was shot with a 180gr, 40cal goldensaber from a browning hipower, saying an Ar15 isn't enouph is a joke.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 1:15:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 1:30:30 PM EST by AR15KittyKat]

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
WOW alot of people sure did put their foot in their mouthes.



Many couch commandos who have never shot an animal thinks it's like Hollywood, 1 good placement shot equals instant death, NOT likely ... Almost all animals shot even in the CNS will still be breathing, grunting, gurgling blood, ect... for awhile... As for hunter's ethics, many hunters do 1 shot, let the downed animals slowly die cause they don't want to dispatch the kill shot cause of trophy mount or less meat in the cooler. I could care less for trophy mounts or cooler meat, that animal will die as fast as I could possible help it, no matter how many rounds it required!
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 1:32:38 PM EST
AR15KittyKat,
Awesome pics! I havea couple questions:
What is your "preferred" bullet for hogs?
What is the average distance for your shots?
When you put the bullet where you want it, do they still tend travel any distance before they give up the ghost?
Although they did not completely do the job I was still impressed with the exspansion the soft points exhibited. What was the retained weight upon recovery?

I wish I lived where the hogs were plenty and the cost was less. I have killed one Russian Boar in my life. It was with a bow. Shot him at 43yds and he traveled another 35yds before dying in the biggest mudhole he could find. What a rush!

Congrats again on your pigs!
Dave
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 1:39:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15KittyKat:

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
WOW alot of people sure did put their foot in their mouthes.



Many couch commandos who have never shot an animal thinks it's like Hollywood, 1 good placement shot equals instant death, NOT likely ... Almost all animals shot even in the CNS will still be breathing, grunting, gurgling blood, ect... for awhile... As for hunter's ethics, many hunters do 1 shot, let the downed animals slowly die cause they don't want to dispatch the kill shot cause of trophy mount or less meat in the cooler. I could care less for trophy mounts or cooler meat, that animal will die as fast as I could possible help it, no matter how many rounds it required!




I don't "trophy" hunt, I don't like "trophy" hunters, I hunt for the meat and the "hunting" part
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 1:42:07 PM EST
oh, nice pigs btw, and shooting into the bushes instead of going after a hurt boar into the thicket was very smart, nothing like a hurt animal on it's turf
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 1:50:18 PM EST
I swear some people just like to bitch, just to hear themselves bitch. I never shot a deer that died instantly. He did a good job. He knows what he's doing. I wish I was with him. Dang. Now you people that got a problem with this, go tell your wife or someone who cares.

I think we've pretty much scared them all away, eh?
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 1:53:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15KittyKat:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
I would say I'd skip those 55gr soft points in the future. I kind of wonder how the 65gr Sierra bullet might work here. It's a SP but carries a little more umph to the target.



I would assume the 65gr SP Sierra's jacket are thicker than of the 55gr SP, so it would penetrate deeper, and may not expand larger. The 55gr SP weakness is not a penetration issue (they penetrated all internals), but .223 bullet can only expand so much, and limited wound channel.

I & Joe noticed how small the wound channels on the SP, but were in awe of the damage the tumbling 55gr fmj. 2 of the fmj tumbled & exited, and 3rd broke the spine & stopped, so the 55gr fmj penetrated plenty deep.

All of the Q3131A previous hog hunts penetrated deep on large hogs, fragmented and made soup of the heart/lung zones, and quick death resulted.

Now the 69gr+ fmj rds that the military are using, from ballitics gel, those rounds frag & created larger wounds than of the XM193 or Q3131A.



Interesting.... I think MO requires expanding ammo for all hunting but Ill have to check that out. Maybe a hot Hornady 68gr load would work well here. I'll have to study on this some. I hope to get a shot to go for some piggy in July or Sept. I'll probably have a DSA FAL (Predator) by then so this may be a moot point.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 1:54:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15KittyKat:
I was the only hunter on the ranch, on an elevated 12' platform, shooting downward, so my backstop was the ground & tree, not other hunters


For some strange reason, I'm feeling very fortunate this afternoon.

Hey, whattsa matta you? Didn't you know the .223 ain't good for hunting?

<­BR> Nice hunting, man.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 2:17:51 PM EST
Having killed upwards of 70-80 big game animals on three continents with bow, muzzleloader, and modern centerfire rifle I have some perspective. Here's my .02...

Regardless of what you use...shot placement is more important than caliber, or bullet construction, or velocity. If you gut shoot an animal with a 5.56 the results will be the same if you had used a .338 Win Mag or a .416 Rigby. Shot placement trumps every other factor...

Second, when you start hunting larger animals like REALLY big boar, 200+ lb deer etc caliber is important... A small bullet simply doesn't have the energy or mass to assure good penetration at all angles. Therefore, the larger the animal the pickier you have to be in terms of shot placement. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a large boar at any angle with a 30-06...with a .223 it begins to get iffy when you have large bone mass in between you and the animal's vitals. Also, the smaller calibers begin to limit your effective range. I'd not think twice about shooting those boar with at 300 yards using something like a 270 Winchester...with a .223 I wouldn't attempt it beyond 100 yards. A medium bore hi-power rifle like the 30-06 will have enough power to drive a well constructed bullet lengthwise through just about any boar, or deer, or elk inside of 300 yards...I'm sorry, but a .223 just isn't up to that kind of performance....it has limitations.

Yes, animals will run from time to time...even well hit animals. There is nothing poerfect in the world of hunting when you begin to realize that there are a million variables that cannot be controlled in a field environment. If the animal is running scared pumped up on adrenaline its even harder to bring them down. This is where energy and size matter...ALOT!

Yes, I've dropped a fair number of animals in their tracks with a bow. Yes a fair number of perfectly hit animals will run 30-40 yards. Again, nothing is perfect when you are talking about sentient beings with anatomical differences between individual specimens.

I've killed an even dozen Russian Boar in Germany. Charging boar don't bother me...I challange anyone to post a link here where someone has been killed by a charging boar...

In competant hands a bolt action rifle can be very fast...granted a .223 semi-auto carbine is probably faster. But its nothing to get off 3 shots of well AIMED close range shots inside of 7-8 seconds with a bolt gun. You can shoot an AR faster...but not necessarily AIM it any faster. As mentioned above...shot placement trumps all else.

I don't currently hunt with an AR though I won't go ouot of my way to berate someone who does. It can be used ethically as long as the hunter realizes its limitations. Personally, I'd question its use if it took me 4 shots to kill my quarry...unless we are talking Cape Buffalo or perhaps Grizzly Bear or any other critter that has a propensity to soak up some lead.

For Deer I use either a .243, or a 25-06 and mainly a .270 Win. For Boar it depends...in close I like my single action sixguns.....45 Colt or .475 Linebaugh. If the ranges get long I'll just take one of my deer rifles. Almost every boar I have ever taken has dropped in its tracks. But again, I can't recall making a poor shot on pigs...deer, once in a blue moon I'll make a bad shot. Hey, I'm human! The standard should be one single humane killing shot...we can't always make that happen. But like I said...if you begin to see a repeat pattern of multiple hits being necessary to bring down your game you should rethink either your tool or your hunting methods.

That's my .02...YMMV



Link Posted: 5/21/2005 2:19:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 2:22:55 PM EST by CRC]
FYI:

In North Carolina it's illegal to hunt 'wild boar' with rifles .22 and smaller.

I have seen shots where a big game animal drops like a brick and is instantly dead.

One of the biggest deer in NC history was killed with a .22 LR.

CRC
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:07:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 4:23:17 PM EST by AR15KittyKat]

Originally Posted By DaveinIdaho:
What is your "preferred" bullet for hogs?
What is the average distance for your shots?
When you put the bullet where you want it, do they still tend travel any distance before they give up the ghost?
Although they did not completely do the job I was still impressed with the exspansion the soft points exhibited. What was the retained weight upon recovery?
Congrats again on your pigs!
Dave



1. Q3131A

2. If you search back on this forum, all my hog hunts were under 100yrds, averaging 40-70yards, I won't take any shot over 100 yards w/ my carbine due to non zoom red-dot setup, skill and ammo limitation.

3. 95% of all 1 round head/neck or heart/lung zone shot dropped where they stood, or less than 3 yards steps. This is the boar on a sprint w/ poor placement gut shot was my 1st boar that I had to track.

4. Recovered SP bullets were not weighed, but they looked like they retained most of their weights.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:13:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 4:14:38 PM EST by AR15KittyKat]

Originally Posted By Backstop:

Originally Posted By AR15KittyKat:
I was the only hunter on the ranch, on an elevated 12' platform, shooting downward, so my backstop was the ground & tree, not other hunters


For some strange reason, I'm feeling very fortunate this afternoon.

Hey, whattsa matta you? Didn't you know the .223 ain't good for hunting?

Nice hunting, man.



Aint it scary being a BACKSTOP

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:56:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15KittyKat:

Originally Posted By Backstop:

Originally Posted By AR15KittyKat:
I was the only hunter on the ranch, on an elevated 12' platform, shooting downward, so my backstop was the ground & tree, not other hunters


For some strange reason, I'm feeling very fortunate this afternoon.

Hey, whattsa matta you? Didn't you know the .223 ain't good for hunting?

Nice hunting, man.



Aint it scary being a BACKSTOP




HAHA!
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:20:12 PM EST
I think a 7.62X39 SP would be an ideal hog round inside 100yds.

AR15kittyKat, build an AR in 7.62X39 load it up with soft point ammo, shoot a few hogs and report back with pics and an after action report.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 8:20:50 PM EST
Great pics, thanks for posting them.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 12:02:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15KittyKat:

Originally Posted By DaveinIdaho:
What is your "preferred" bullet for hogs?
What is the average distance for your shots?
When you put the bullet where you want it, do they still tend travel any distance before they give up the ghost?
Although they did not completely do the job I was still impressed with the exspansion the soft points exhibited. What was the retained weight upon recovery?
Congrats again on your pigs!
Dave



1. Q3131A

2. If you search back on this forum, all my hog hunts were under 100yrds, averaging 40-70yards, I won't take any shot over 100 yards w/ my carbine due to non zoom red-dot setup, skill and ammo limitation.

3. 95% of all 1 round head/neck or heart/lung zone shot dropped where they stood, or less than 3 yards steps. This is the boar on a sprint w/ poor placement gut shot was my 1st boar that I had to track.

4. Recovered SP bullets were not weighed, but they looked like they retained most of their weights.


It's a rare man these days who knows the limitations of himself and his equipment, isn't shy to admit it and works within them.
Good post on a great hunt. Thanks for shareing
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 3:47:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/22/2005 3:48:57 AM EST by MSG]
I'm glad you enjoyed your days afield, too many folks don't get out in the woods anymore. That being said, There's no way you can convince me that dumping rounds at an unseen target is proper in a "hunting" situation. You made a lot of assumptions about the lack of other hunters and the presence of other game....and that's dangerous. Stating that does not make one a "couch commando"

but like I said, regardless of your load or choice of rifles, at least you always recover your game and enjoy some hog on a spit. Happy "Hunting".
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