I am considering buying a 22lr upper to save on ammunition and so I can shoot in my backyard since it will not be as loud.

I was wondering who makes good 22lr uppers (if anyone) and where is a good place to acquire one?

I have seen multiple posts discussing particular ones, but I don't know overall how many different ones are available and which ones are considered good.

Thanks.

I've been happy with my DPMS .22LR M4 upper. I'll be even happier when the hicap mag I ordered arrives . If accuracy is somewhat important to you, then look at this upper. On the other hand, if you just want to blast/plink, then a conversion kit in your existing upper may be adequate (DPMS does one for ~$140 IIRC).

Will it do any damage to your existing upper if you just get the conversion kit?  This is a very nice upper and I don't want anything to really do damage to it if I can avoid it.  Also, since I don't know what all the conversion entails, is it possible to do the conversion fairly easily without any special tools?

I was mainly interested in one of the dedicated uppers because I would like it to be as accurate as possible.

The old style conversion will not hurt your upper aslong as you give it a good cleaning afterward, but as you probably already know, accuracy will suck.  I'd get a dedicated upper.

To put in a conversion kit: open AR-15, remove .223 bolt / carrier, insert .22LR bolt / carrier, close AR-15 and shoot.  As to weather or not it will cause damage.  I don't think so, but I could be wrong.  There is some concern about your gas tube becoming "leaded".  Accuracy is so-so.  Depends on what your looking for.  Pop cans at 25 yards is good, but if you want more accuracy, then you'll want a dedicated upper.

I have 2 dedicated uppers: a 16" that I got from Kurts Kustom Firearms over 4 years ago.  It uses a Ciener Kit, has over 18,000 rounds through it, and is plenty accurate.  I use fixed sites, and it is far and away more accurate than any fixed site .22 available.  I also have a DPMS DCM 20" upper.  Also very accurate.  I don't shoot for groups with it, but if I do my part I have yet to miss any of the small plastic bottles that I shoot at at 40 yards.  I'm thinking of getting a DPMS M-4 .22 upper next spring, so I can put a scope on it, and have an easier time when I go plinking with my buddy who uses his 10/22 bull barrel!

Hope this helped.

Brad

www.cdnninvestments.com/arcocz22vupn.html

Well, as a dedicated .22 fanatic, I'm gonna weigh in on this one.

I've tried just about all the different conversions to make the AR-15 into a bona-fide .22 plinker.

The DPMS dedicated uppers come in a number of barrel lengths and configurations.  They are the way to go, if you want the best quality and accuracy.  They also maintain the "authentic AR-15" look.

The Colt conversion kit is easy and versatile.  But the accuracy suffers with the .223 upper, especially with 1:7 and 1:9 barrel twist rates.  The .22 LR bullet is just too light for anything faster than 1:12.  My own results are not much better than 6" groups at 50 yards (with 1:7 twist barrel).

The Bushmaster conversion includes a very nice and light synthetic upper and works well.  The accuracy is superb - 1 M.O.A. or better.  No built-in carry handle and doesn't look "authentic".   The barrel is pencil-thin and not threaded for a flash hider.  The magazines are thin plastic and really cheesy, but they do function well enough.  If you want a very light plinker and don't care about authentic appearance, it's a good choice.

I'm currently trying out the Olympic Arms 22-17 Partner system.  Initial results and impressions are very favorable.  I've shot the .17HM2 barrel insert and it functions well, with 1-2 M.O.A. accuracy.  The metal magazine insert works with standard G.I. AR-15 magazines, a nice touch.  The look is completely authentic, and the bolt hold-open functions.

Have not tried the CZ system.  I looked it over and was not favorably impressed.  The look is just too much cast zinc (at least for me) and not authentic.  The price is right, though, so it's the way to go if you're limited by budget.  I bypassed it for DPMS.

HTH, Jim

the best dedicated 22lr upper is made by Frank White.   www.compasslake.com

not cheap, but the most accurate for sure.

DPMS M4 config. Great setup. Even better with a suppressor. Not sure you save any more money after you outfit it!

Midwayusa.com has the DPMS 22lr M4 upper in stock. I just ordered one to give myself for Christmas.

Around $475, so not to cheap, but avalible.  

Consider the CZ if you haven't gotten an upper. The finish is not so good but is a tack driver. I took the front sight block and put a red dot and had a lot of fun.

If I had it to do over again, I'd get a DPMS upper or an M261 or Ceiner conversion (I have a couple 1 in 12 uppers).  Awhile back, CDNN had a real good deal on the DPMS flattop upper with the free float tube and 16" stainless bull barrel.  The price was about the same as the CZ V22 prices I've seen recently.

I bought the CZ from RB Precision on sale because (1) the price was right, and (2) they will take modified high cao Ceiner mags (or you can modify the bolt to use Ceiner mags w/o modification).  The finish leaves something to be desires, as noted above, but it is quite accurate.

The only downside to the CZ is it is next to impossible to get parts other than mags.  I contacted RB Precision, who sent me to the distributor, Adco Sales, who gave me the email for CZ Strakonice who never replied.  (I failed to notice a squib during rapid fire and ringed the barrel.  It still shoots OK, but I'd love to have a replacement barrel, firing pin, extractor, etc.)  One member posted that he got some spare parts, but I have had no luck to date...

By the way, CZ Strakonice is NOT the same as  CZUB/CZ USA.  They were part of the same organization back in the commie days, but it got split up and privatized.  I understand there is an ongoing trademark dispute between CS Strakonice and CZUB.

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the Kuehl upper.  Rick is doing one last run and they will be available in January.

I've got one and it has been great.

Tagged for more

Quoted: I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the Kuehl upper.  Rick is doing one last run and they will be available in January. I've got one and it has been great.

+ 1000 for Ricks uppers, I've had mine for over a year.....super accurate and trouble free....

In the UK the only semi-auto AR fun we can have (other than single shot Bolt Action modified) is in .22LR.  I looked at both the DPMS and CZ V22.  SGC sold me a V22 with one of their lowers on the basis that it was more reliable than the DPMS (feed problems based on the fact that the mag is central to extracction?) - you ever notice the ammo disclaimer on the DPMS website?.  

SGC replace the standard V22 10 round mags with their own 25 round units.  The only problem I had was with the bolt which has since been rectified (again a fit/finish issue as noted elsewhere). SGC put this right and the gun now finctions flawlessly.

I have it fitted with a VLTOR 5 position stock, Samco g27 grip. Daniel Defense 7.0 hanguard and a YHM Front flip-up.  It looks good and is about as close as I'll ever get in the UK.  

I am thinking of getting a second rifle and would probably have a closer look at the DPMS now that they are working on new hi-cap mags and hopefully will sort out the feed/extract issues.

EDITED 7/1/06 TO SHOW PICS!

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d121/BlackRifleBrit/V221205021.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d121/BlackRifleBrit/V221205022.jpg

Tisk...tisk...tisk
BlackRifleBrit you bad boy !!
PICTURES...PICTURES....

PIX ADDED ABOVE

Tag

No problems with my carbon-15 upper from bushmaster, had to change my hammer spring , doesnt look like a true m4 but it is very accurate , I was shooting clay targets at 100 yards today no problem.

Quoted: www.cdnninvestments.com/arcocz22vupn.html

Yep, Looks like the V22s are down to around $250.  Natchess or one of the other catalogs I get has them for $249 or $259, too.

Tag.

Will it do any damage to your existing upper if you just get the conversion kit?

I've never heard of a kit damaging the upper.  At least in the Ciener the bolt doesn't even touch the inside of the receiver so there's less wear than as a .223.  The chamber adapter is essentially a steel cartridge case so I guess theoretically it could wear on the chamber, but there's not really any room for it to move to do that.  I guess if I paid big bucks for a super-match barrel I wouldn't risk it, but in an off-the-shelf barrel I wouldn't hesitate to use the kit.

You do have to be careful to clean the upper well before switching back to .223 though.  The kit will get all sorts of gunk inside the receiver and the .22s will get the barrel dirty.  If you shoot too many .22s between .223s it might plug the gas port.  Nobody seems to know how many is "too many" but I'm sure it's at least several bricks worth.

I was mainly interested in one of the dedicated uppers because I would like it to be as accurate as possible.

How accurate can you afford?  Compass Lake uppers at ~$1000 will hang with the best match guns.  Accuracy Speaks at ~$700 should too.  

"production" uppers to look at:

CZ V22 = side charging hancle, cheap finish but seems to shoot OK, may be hard to get parts but I've not heard of any failures, 10-round mags but may be able to use Ciener 30-rounders with some mods, no iron sights

DPMS bull barrel = regular AR charging handle, no iron sights, very heavy, free floated barrel
DPMS M4 = just like a regular 16" M4 type upper, has front sight and takes any rear that fits on a flattop
DPMS A2 = just like a regular 20" A2 type upper, has fixed sights, may be free-floated?
DPMS has hi-cap mags coming out and should be shipping now

Bushmaster = only 10-round mags, carbon-fiber is light, I believe has sights, requires swapping out the buffer and spring in the stock

Fulton Armory = don't know anything about it

Kuehl (KPF) = uses modified Ciener kit, several configurations (at least used to be)

Kurt's Kustom (KKF) = any configuration, proper .22LR bore but uses chamber adapter and any drop-in kit for bolt\

Olympic Arms = uses modified M-261 kit, sleeve inserts for barrel allows for switching between .22LR and .17HM2, only 10-round mags, M4 configuration I believe (maybe others too)

The DPMS uppers seem to work pretty well and are probably the best price/quality value right now.  CZ's are lower quality but not bad for the price if you're OK with the side charging handle.  Not much opinion out there for the BM or Oly, but what little I've heard on the Oly is good (mostly about the .17HM2).  KKF and KPF are semi-custom and good quality.  AS and CLE are top-notch if you can afford them.

If you expect it to shoot as good as a stock 10/22 then the kits won't do it but any of the dedicated uppers will.  If you expect it to shoot significantly better than that you'll probably have to go to the custom ones.

Might be worth a tack...mods?

Midway has the DPMS heavy barrel 22lr upper on sale for $299.00 w/ one 10 round mag right now. I grabbed one before they ran out and they went into a back-order status. Last time I looked they were saying end of January.

I wish someone would market a .22 upper that was competitive with an out of the box 10/22 in terms of price, reliability and accuracy.  Is that possible?

A Ciener or M261 is as close as we've gotten, IMO.  Once in a while, you see V22s, DPMS or other uppers in the low $200s.  My V22 will shoot with a 10/22, but it cost about $100 more.

Most of us aren't looking for a National Match practice rig (Kuehl, Compass Lake, Fulton, etc).  We just want a good plinker upper.

Quoted: I wish someone would market a .22 upper that was competitive with an out of the box 10/22 in terms of price, reliability and accuracy.  Is that possible? A Ciener or M261 is as close as we've gotten, IMO.  Once in a while, you see V22s, DPMS or other uppers in the low $200s.  My V22 will shoot with a 10/22, but it cost about $100 more.

The V22, selling for what they're going for at the moment ($250), isn't all that far from Ruger's full metal retail for a 10/22. But of course nobody pays retail for a 10/22. A used but still functional V22 at anything under two pigs would be a buy. Hell, I'd grab it myself, even though I don't NEED it.

My M261, in one of my 1:12 uppers (but NOT in another one) is as reliable as and more accurate than my 10/22s.

I really like mine from KKF!

Where can I buy the big mags for the CZ V22?

Quoted: Where can I buy the big mags for the CZ V22?

What big mags?  AFAIK you can modify a Ciener 30-round mag (or modify the V22 bolt).  There is a place in the UK (alluded to above) that is supposed to have a high-cap mag for the V22, but I've never seen or heard of it in the USA.  There was also supposed to be a US made high-cap. for the V22, but I don't know if it went anywhere.

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Quoted:
Where can I buy the big mags for the CZ V22?
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In the UK the Distributor for CZ V22 is Southern Gun Company (web: www.southern-gun.co.uk, e:mail is [email protected]).  Bob discouraged me from buying the V22 with the original 10 round mags because of the problems reported here.  He manufactures his own 25 round mags for the V22. They are well engineered/manufactured and very robust I have three of them and they run faultlessly.  They are not cheap - I think the UK retail is around £30 if I recall ($50?)

Accuracy Speaks pioneered a lot of AR-15 match gunsmithing techniques.....including the dedicated 22 uppers.

IMHO......the M261 with dedicated barrel is hands down the best 22 conversion you can go with.  It is well machined and solid.  Magazines are quality.

Ceiner is a half assed kit made by an ass.  The ONLY reason to have one is the 30 rd mags....none of mine worked worth a shit so to me the high cap issue is moot.

DPMS kit is ok but not as nice as the M261.

Bushy won't ever win me over with plastic.....feels cheap.....better off with a 10/22.

CZs......not impressed.......cast parts......and I seen them fire out of battery......probably made from the same plant they made the Yugo.

Quoted: CZs......not impressed.......cast parts......and I seen them fire out of battery......probably made from the same plant they made the Yugo.

Mine has fired out of battery.  The big fireball coming out of the injection port can be disconcerting.  Mine has also doubled on more than one occasion (no porblems with that lower with any of my .5.56x45 uppers.

I could live with painted cast parts if the functional reliability, durability, accuracy and street price were as good as a 10/22.

I have a couple 1x12 uppers.  Maybe I'll try an M261 or Ciener.  I understand Cieners can be made to function well and I don't mind tinkering.

NOTE:  The V22 is made by CZ Strakonice NOT CZUB/CZ-USA.  Everything I have bought from CZ-USA was a great value for the money.

Check out this thread on the Olympic 2217 Partner conversion system.

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=260344

And Cheaper Than Dirt still has the Oly 2217 Partner conversion system with the 22LR and 17HM2 barrel inserts priced at $399.99. I ordered one from them; works great, too. If the link doesn't work, do an inquiry on their site for item number ARR-057.

cheaperthandirt.com/itemfind.asp

I've been keeping track of out of battery kabooms. We have seen them with CZs, Bushmasters, and DPMS uppers (DPMS most), also with Rhineland R22, Remington 597, and even a few rare ones with 10/22s. (I've even had one or two with a Jager AP-74.) Can't recall hearing of an OOB KB with an M261 but I have a vague recollection of one with a Ciener.

They can mostly be avoided if you learn what your gun sounds and feels like when it's running normally. Also, ALWAYS wear your safety glasses, ESPECIALLY if shooting any .22 autoloader left-handed.

I can get quater sized 10 round 50 yard groups with the ciener in my 20" Bushmaster off of the bench.  The same ammo will do nickle sized groups out of my dpms bull barrel .22 upper at 50 yards.  At 25 yards, they all go in a dime sized hole with the DPMS

Quoted: In the UK the Distributor for CZ V22 is Southern Gun Company (web: www.southern-gun.co.uk, e:mail is [email protected]).  Bob discouraged me from buying the V22 with the original 10 round mags because of the problems reported here.  He manufactures his own 25 round mags for the V22. They are well engineered/manufactured and very robust I have three of them and they run faultlessly.  They are not cheap - I think the UK retail is around £30 if I recall ($50?)

Will they ship them to the USA?  Or does that violate some import regulation?

I guess I can just email them and ask.

Quoted: Can't recall hearing of an OOB KB with an M261 but I have a vague recollection of one with a Ciener.

I remember the threads on here from people blowing up Bushys or DPMSs and trying to make metal mags for them.  I've dropped the hammer on my Ciener with it slightly out of battery due to slightly oversized rounds not chambering fully.  In every case it resulted in a light strike FTFire when the hammer closed the bolt the rest of the way.  If a Ciener ever did fire OOB at least the all-metal mag would probably survive.

Quoted: Ceiner is a half assed kit made by an ass. The ONLY reason to have one is the 30 rd mags....none of mine worked worth a shit so to me the high cap issue is moot.

Ciener didn't design the kit, he just makes/sells it now.  It's also the only kit to work with full-auto, so there's another reason to get one.  I have two 30-round Ciener mags and aside from them being hard to get the last 2-3 rounds in they work fine.  (So far, a few hundred rounds through each.)  Even the 10-round ones are all-metal, and they come apart easily for cleaning.   I don't think it's such a poor system.

Quoted: I wish someone would market a .22 upper that was competitive with an out of the box 10/22 in terms of price, reliability and accuracy. Is that possible?

I think all of the uppers out there are competitive on reliability and accuracy, but I don't think price is possible.  10/22s are cheap.  ARs are not.  

When you consider that except for the bolt and barrel a .22 upper has to have all the same parts as a .223 upper you're getting close to the street price of a 10/22 for just the receiver, HGs, charging handle, barrel nut, HG cap, etc.   .22 barrels take more machining than a .223 barrel, and the bolt assembly is more complicated to assemble than the .223 bolt and carrier.  Without the economy of scale for production it's amazing something like a DPMS .22 upper doesn't cost more than a .223 upper  (and most of the kit-based custom ones do).  

Of course, you don't have to use the same quality of parts on a .22LR as you do on a .223 upper.  Cast FSB, no heatshields on the HGs, etc. but you don't save that much and if you had to re-tool to make them you'd be better off just using your regular .223 parts unless the volume was very high.   The CZ V22 upper is probably as close as we're going to get to an affordable .22 upper.  If they had in-country parts and support like the 10/22 they might take off and come down in price.

Quoted: When you consider that except for the bolt and barrel a .22 upper has to have all the same parts as a .223 upper you're getting close to the street price of a 10/22 for just the receiver, HGs, charging handle, barrel nut, HG cap, etc.   .22 barrels take more machining than a .223 barrel, and the bolt assembly is more complicated to assemble than the .223 bolt and carrier.  Without the economy of scale for production it's amazing something like a DPMS .22 upper doesn't cost more than a .223 upper  (and most of the kit-based custom ones do).   Of course, you don't have to use the same quality of parts on a .22LR as you do on a .223 upper.  Cast FSB, no heatshields on the HGs, etc. but you don't save that much and if you had to re-tool to make them you'd be better off just using your regular .223 parts unless the volume was very high.   The CZ V22 upper is probably as close as we're going to get to an affordable .22 upper.  If they had in-country parts and support like the 10/22 they might take off and come down in price.

I take your point.  You could probably use a cast aluminum or polymer upper.  I guess most people want their .22 upper to look like an AR, but I'm more utilitarian.  I'd be happy with a cheap free-float tube/barrel nut like CZ Strakonice used on my V22.  Heck, you might ba able to make a monolithic .22 upper by putting a plastic sleeve inside a cast aluminum or polymer barrel/receiver unit (like the Mk. III uppers Tactical Solutions sells, but not as fancy).  I agree, the V22 is probably as close as we'll get to an affordable .22 upper.

By the way, I've destroyed two of the plastic V22 mags when my upper has fired out of battery.  It blows the crap out of them.

If my DPMS is out of battery it light strikes. How are these guns blowing?

Quoted: ... I guess most people want their .22 upper to look like an AR, but I'm more utilitarian.  I'd be happy with a cheap free-float tube/barrel nut like CZ Strakonice used on my V22.  ...

I thought the CZ had regular handguards?    

The side charging handle on the CZs probably isn't helping their sales with people who want it for training.   DPMS makes a bull barrel version with just a round one-piece screw in tube.  IIRC it's not too much more than the CZ, but really heavy, and no FSB so no iron sights.

The CZ has a round and knurled handguard.  I think it is pretty standard but the main issues I (and others) find is that it just doesn't stay put! This may be just mildly irritating provided you don't have anything else mounted.  On my V22 I wanted to use a bipod.  I had the original handguard drilled to accept a QD swivel with Harris. Although it started out fine (and I am sure it was torqued up correctlly), within a few weeks it worked loose. The resulting play in the handguard meant it rotated nearly an inch to the right without any real effort, and when tightened fully the Bipod was well off centre!  This was more than mildly irritating so it had to go.  I got a Daniel Defense M47.0 which is indexed and has no problems!

I think they make them both ways.  Mine has the knurled tube, but I think I have seen them with regular handguards.

I just want one for plinking - not serious training - so the side charger is not an issue for me.

I too have seen the DPMS with the free float tube and 16" stainless bull barrel for around $250 ($259 or $269 IIRC).  A couple months ago, CDNN was selling them at that price point with a cheap scope.

UPDATE!  I got a reply from Southern Guns.  They can ship me one of their 25-round mags.  $67 bucks, but I'll try it.  That's about the same as a Ciener and Southern Guns' mags are (1) designed for the V22 and (2) CNC machined from Aluminum bar stock .  They also stock spares.

Quoted: I do like the fact the 261 inserts allow me to use regular mag holders, carriers, etc. so I can practice reloads and the feel is close to the real deal (other than weight).

Ciener mags can be sleeved into cut-off .223 mags for that same effect.  The 10-round mags fit easily into 20-round AR mags, but the 30-round Cieners are a little longer than a 30-round AR mag.  I don't think you'd lose too much capacity if you shortened them to fit though; IIRC it's less than an inch.  

The M-261 mag inserts were probably designed to fit in 20-round GI mags.  I wonder how many you could fit in an insert designed for the longer 30-round mags?  I'm thinking 20.  Maybe 25 if you didn't have to leave room for the .223 follower.  

Quoted: With a can installed theyre even more fun. Just my 2 cents...

I need a can, where can I get it or how do I make it?

thanks

Quoted: Quoted: With a can installed theyre even more fun. Just my 2 cents... I need a can, where can I get it or how do I make it? thanks

First, you ask the ATF for permission....

I have a reason to be quite, I don't want the neighbors to hear me....  is that so wrong?  hinking.gif

I'll tell you the problem and maybe somebody can add something to help?

If I were going to shoot grackles at 10-20 yards, in town, I would want to do it very quietly and safely.  Most shots I currently take with my pellet gun are up in the air at the birds who are sitting in a blue spruce. About a 20-35 degree upward shot.  Distance to the outskirts of town about a mile or less.  I would like to use 22 cal bird shot in a dedicated upper with some type of noise suppressor in my ar-15.  Or a ruger 10/22 with sub-sonic 22 cal and added noise control or, a savage smooth bore with 22 sub-sonic.  I have looked at cdnn $249 22lr dedicated upper and figure I can get a  10/22 for about $150 or less.  Cheaper than dirt has the ciner adapter for $149 but the accuracy may not be good enough.  And if I shoot bird shot I should have a smooth bore, huh? I just don't know what to do to get the job done for the least amount of money and most important safety and NOISE!

Any advice?

Thanks

If "quiet" is all you seek, why don't you use CCI CB Long ammo?  It's good out to 25 yards or so.  Perfect for backyard plinking.

You'll have to cycle the bolt each time, as the low power ammo won't auto eject and feed.  But it's not even as loud as a hammer hitting a wood board.

If you want even quieter, use the Aguila Super Colibri.  It's so quiet you can shoot in the house - about like a handclap.  If you can get 20' away, you can set up an indoor target range.  A 3/4"-thick wood board will easily stop the bullet.

HTH, Jim

I'm not sure birdshot would work with a suppressor.  I think you'd probably get pellets hitting the baffles.  Also, birdshots loads don't pattern well at all.  Even 10yds is probably about 2-3x the range where you'd get a majority of pellets to hit.  Marlin makes (or used to make) a smoothbore .22 Mag that should pattern better, but still maybe not well enough to use a suppressor.  

If the "outskirts of town about a mile or less" means you're outside the town and can shoot a .22 there legally, then you might try some subsonic loads.  They don't have the "crack" sound of a supersonic round and probably wouldn't disturb the neighbors at ~1mi.  They might hear it, but it shouldn't be bothersomely loud.  They might not even notice if there's a lot of other noise (traffic, kids, etc.).  Shooting up at a 20-35 degree angle presents a safety issue though, as a miss could easily travel that mile to town.  

So you're probably better off getting a bigger pellet gun instead.  Some of the "magnum" pellet guns can pack a pretty good wallop at close range, but pellets are much less aerodynamic so a miss wouldn't be as big a danger.  There are also "no powder" .22 loads like the CCI CBs and the Aguila Super Colibri.  They're pretty quiet, but not really any more powerful than the pellet guns and the pellet gun would definitely be more accurate.

If "quiet" is all you seek, why don't you use CCI CB Long ammo?

Have never heard of these but it "sounds" better, at least I think it will, thanks Jim  h=85%