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Posted: 8/28/2002 3:54:52 PM EST
Tack-Up please.

This is the thread that got it rolling:


Yes, thank you....thank you. My mother tha.....well, please read it first, scope out Marty's site and pay heed to what he said in the thread so this doesn't turn into a cluster muck.

Now, to stir (or spoil the pot):
1) Is the barrel steel 416R? I know 416 was sited.....I just don't know if the R is taken for granted. Could ya make it out of 415 SS....can ya, huh, please, huh. Sorry, 416R is just fine.
2) I'm game for an upper that is of the Armalite A4(or Bushmaster V Match) design. Sorry, I cannot find the DPMS catolog number to match.
3) The Picatinny gas block option would be kewl.

I'll get my esoteric .458 SOCOM upper (that I mentioned in the starter thread)in the house by giving it to my wife for her Feb. birthday. da-da-damn I love shooting her stuff.

Dave S

Make it a 416R or chrome-moly barrel and I am in with both feet, maniacal laughter and WOOD.
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 4:34:46 PM EST
I'm in for sure... WOOD and all (let's just make sure we're all standing at least an arm's length apart...)

DaveS, here's the link to the Lo-Pro upper at DPMS:


Essentially, it's a flat top with no dust cover and no forward assist, picatinny rail is "slightly higher than A3"

<DPMS's website is a bear to click thru...>

Link Posted: 8/28/2002 4:42:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/28/2002 4:43:06 PM EST by NoPlay]
also, just looked at the Bushmaster website... they list the V-match upper at $160 vs $125 retail for the DPMS Lo-Pro.

I'm not sure how that would affect Marty (don't know if he gets dealer prices on this stuff, but hopefully he does), and I don't know if he's used the Bushmaster uppers, but I bet someone might rather have the forward assist and dust cover...
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 6:39:01 PM EST
Sounds good to me. I would like to have the bushmaster with forward assist and dust cover if that is possible. What ever is decided is fine with me.
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 7:42:53 PM EST
DaveS, you sure like stirring the pot, don'tcha? ;o)

OK, to make this work, we will need a few ground rules:
1 - At least 20 people, committed to this, so we don't get left with unused uppers.
2 - Decide upon a configuration and stick with it. We are willing to allow a choice on one item - Front sight or not (your choice at the time of order). Other than that, we have to make it standard, so we can leverage volume and get the price down for you. Not sure if my explanation works: y'all decide on the config, and then when you order, let us know if you want the FS or not.
3 - Be reasonable. We are not trying to get rich, but would like to make enough to fund, let's say, pre-production brass for the 510 Phalanx. So let's agree that JP Entreprises, Les Baer, etc parts are not part of this GP.

We would like the final say on the receiver if necessary, but will be sure to post it here.

Now, to answer some questions/comments

Barrel - we use PacNor standard match stainless barrels, 16" long, post ban (no threads), 11° crown, 0.93" diameter at the muzzle. Best I can tell, it is 416R, but you can check out their stuff at www.pac-nor.com

Receiver - we typically work with DPMS, and like the LoPro for this heavy round - it seems appropriate. Also, keep in mind that we have to mill open the ejection port for the large SOCOM case, and the port cover will typically no longer remain closed once we enlarge the opening. The Rock River receiver we used for one customer seemed to fare better in this regard. So the point of the dust cover is somewhat moot, and I have yet to use my F/A on my AR-15 and have been shooting one since 1994 ... It sounds like flat top will be the way to go.

Hand gaurd - Free floated aluminum, CAR length is standard for us, we use the DPMS style, non-vented. Any objections?

Gas block - most all the uppers we have sold have gone out with the A2 FS. These are attached with 2 hex screws (we use Torx Plus, size IP10) so the gas block could be easily swapped. The other type is the DPMS lo profile style. The 4 rail version is the same price as the A2 FS, so that would be a possibility.

Bolt/Carrier - Colt, no exceptions.

The upper would like pretty much like the "Base Model" shown on the website (go to Products, AR uppers)

We are not set up with Bushmaster or Armalite, so we don't know whether we can get dealer pricing through them. If we can keep all the parts from one source, it helps in leveraging, so if not the DPMS LoPro, why not the DPMS A3? Quite frankly, we couldn't tell any major difference between the Les Baer, RRA and DPMS receiver, had to mark them to keep from confusing them ....

If all this sounds reasonable, then $675, shipped to your address (ground), should be feasible.

Talk amongst yourselves, and let us know

Marty ter Weeme
Teppo Jutsu LLC
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 7:50:00 PM EST
Is it cheaper if I just drive over to your place and pick mine up?

What kind of wait are we talking about here? Weeks? Months?

I'm interested.
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 2:41:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2002 4:35:38 AM EST by DaveS]
Marty, I'm in!

Haven't seen a mod jump in to tack-up this thread or generate an official AR15.COM Group Purchase thread. My reference to Armalite/Bushmaster uppers was to point out the picatinny rail,forward assist and dust cover......like the picture on your AR uppers page that is named Black4Rail with a detachable front sight mounted on your squared gas block (even though the barrel is black).

Anyone with authoritie, please help us out.


Dave S

BTW, did I mention that I like the Black4Rail upper design (with a shiney SS barrel, of course)?

I'm in for the purchase. Yooz gyz figure out the particulars and someone in authoritie please set this up for Marty's mental and financial peace of mind(and ours).

Link Posted: 8/29/2002 3:01:03 AM EST
Hi Marty,

I'm in, probably with a 4-rail gas block. It was mentioned that the LoPro upper is "slightly higher" than the A3. Would this cause problems with mounting an ARMS SIR or the like? I don't really want the FA or dust cover; I'm just concerned about the height difference.

Link Posted: 8/29/2002 4:14:47 AM EST
here's the link to the 4 rail gas block:


I'd definitely like to have this since Marty says it's the same price as the A2.

Marty's other standard parts are good for me (for this price, I ain't gonna be too picky!).

Like Brouhaha, I'm also interested if local pick-up would be available, mostly 'cause I'd rather not let UPS bounce it around for a few days... I work up by Gunspoint...err Greenspoint, so the Woodlands would be a short drive...
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 4:39:00 AM EST
Thanks for explaination on the dust cover. Where
do I sent my money
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 4:43:46 AM EST
I would be in on this purchase.Were do we send the deposit! I don't reload, would getting ammo be a problem? Firepower
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 4:49:56 AM EST
I already have a 458SOCOM upper so I will not be able to get in on this deal. Something for you guys to think about, if you are going to mount optics why not get a standard length float tube? It leaves about ~3-4" of barrel sticking out the end of the float tube and looks real nice. Send me an Email if you want pictures. Or if someone here can post pics for me I can send them to you.

Link Posted: 8/29/2002 4:58:07 AM EST
After reading the first thread linked to this all I can say is....

DAMN!! $675 is a helluva deal on this!! I paid Tromix $865 for mine last Dec. Hell at $675 you could buy dies and brass and still be way under $865. If you all want to get a .458SOCOM this is the way to do it. I dont regret getting mine but I sure would have liked to save ~$200!! By the way Corbon is loading this caliber so you can get commercial ammo if you dont reload!

Link Posted: 8/29/2002 5:26:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2002 5:28:10 AM EST by rocko]
Some more details would be great... What is requested up front - partial deposit (if so, how much) or full payment? What would the turnaround time be looking like?

Any way you could fix up a package with a set of dies and some brass at a good "group purchase" rate as well?

Link Posted: 8/29/2002 5:31:23 AM EST

I'm in. Not because I need one, but because I can and this is a good deal that I'd like to see come to fruition.

I personally think this should transpire in 3 stages: Signup, Deposit, and Shipment.

Marty, I think the best way to keep this together is for you to determine the configuration (as you've basically already done). Then if someone wants an extra, they work that out with you directly and pay any difference. i.e. keep it simple.

Then we need to know time frame and deposit required.

If we set a deadline for signup, deposit, and shipment, we can keep people on board and shed off any non committed.

I can volunteer to coordinate the signup process and compile a list of users, e-mail addresses, and status. (but anyone can do it) Deposits should go to Marty of course.

Sound good?

Link Posted: 8/29/2002 5:40:51 AM EST
I count 11 so far. Let me know if I left you out or if you should be removed form this list.



Only need 9 more!

Link Posted: 8/29/2002 6:07:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2002 6:39:21 AM EST by DaveS]

Oh, just cram me in the middle.

And I'm in for two (2)!

Dave S

Oh man, you jammed me at the bottom. [>Q]
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 7:10:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2002 7:12:32 AM EST by longshot_va]
Oh fine!

DaveS (2)

8 more needed to make this work!

(two? Damn DaveS, I though I was frivolous. )


Link Posted: 8/29/2002 11:03:03 AM EST
Just added to more through email!

6 left at this price! Get 'em while they last!

Link Posted: 8/29/2002 11:03:19 AM EST
My only concern before jumping on this wagon is getting a threaded muzzle for a suppressor. Is this something that can be done as part of this deal (at a nominal charge) or can I send it back for threading in the future?
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 12:02:15 PM EST
What are the ballistics like? What's the drop at 200yds from 100yd zero?

Energy @ 100yds? Energy @ 200yds?

I still see the configuration up in the air...is it? Or has it been solidified?


Link Posted: 8/29/2002 12:15:37 PM EST


Dave S

Now go do the right thing.
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 12:16:33 PM EST

some info for ya to look at:

here's an article about the .458 SOCOM from The Accurate Rifle:


Here's the energy & drop info on the CorBon factory ammo:


And here's Marty's site:
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 1:39:52 PM EST
How did this thread get UN-PINNED?! I brushed my teeth and washed my crack. da-da-damn.

Dave S
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 1:40:50 PM EST
This project sounds insane. I'm seriously considering it. I have a few questions though, if someone would be kind enough to help me out.

1. What kind of pressure does this thing generate? I can't help but wonder what the recoil is doing to the rifle. Is there any premature wear or does it handle it fairly well?

2. What kind of stats has anyone worked up on the round? I reload, but I'm not much on blind experimentation. If anyone can show me some data I'd be more interested in the project.

3. Why bother with the A2 front sight? The low-pro upper isn't the same height as the A3 upper so you'd need to get a custom rear sight. Go with a 4 rail or the low profile gas block.

4. How much are the reloading dies?

5. How many times can you reload the brass? The price on the brass is more than I'm used to for normal rounds, but do-able. The bullets are cheap enough. 300-400 grain .45 rounds are cheap.

My only other question is how payment will be handled. All up front, half up front, all when ready? Half up fron is easily do-able, other options I'll need to make sure I set some aside. Depending on the answers to my questions, I'd be in on the deal. Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 2:30:16 PM EST
Christ- I can't believe I'm considering this...my wife finds out and ya'll will find me feeding the fishes.
Someone asked this already. What kind of time frame are we looking at? What kind of money down?
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 3:57:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2002 4:06:02 PM EST by Skunkworks45]
Posted by Greywolf:

"My only concern before jumping on this wagon is getting a threaded muzzle for a suppressor. Is this something that can be done as part of this deal (at a nominal charge) or can I send it back for threading in the future?"

That's at least two votes for threading. I had the same question earlier on the previous thread (nice pun, eh?). I REALLY would like the threaded muzzle for my preban, especially since this will come in a 16" barrel. It's the only additional gizmo I would pine for; everything else as Marty described earlier is just as I would want it. My preference for a threaded muzzle is for utilizing a muzzle-brake or flash-hider, as necessity demands. ----S.

Link Posted: 8/29/2002 7:05:03 PM EST
I'm in if you don't need the money until October.
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 7:25:55 PM EST
Boy, y'all ask a lot of questions!

OK, let's see. Did we mention this was going to be a one time deal and that we needed 20 folks to make it work? We're close.

LongShot has taken the lead on getting this organized, that's fine by me/us ... So to the grimey details first:

The proposed SignUp, Deposit, Delivery sounds good, and adding a deadline is going to be necessary so we can place the order for the barrels.

Deposit - 50% to provide working capital to procure parts and pieces.

Delivery time - critical path is the barrels, these are typically 8 to 12 weeks from the factory once they get the order. After that, machine time, assembly time and shipping time. Best possible would be 12 weeks, worst 16 or so.

Payment - We can do credit card and PayPal but would have to ask for 3% added. To alleviate some fears of "getting burned", we can suggest a Postal Money Order, this gives us secured funds and you the notion that if we try to "take the $ and run" we just managed to amass a bundle of federal offenses of the felony type and you can send Uncle Sam after us. (A heck of an incentive to play nice)

Dies - CH Tool and Die has them (www.CH4D.com) and they are around $147 I believe. As to making a package, let me check with Dave at CH. Keep in mind that the GP will have us leveraged as is, so we won't have too much room left. Same goes for brass.

A3 versus LoPro - I pulled out one of each and took the calipers to them, and cannot measure significant difference in height of the rail compared to location of hand guard. The LoPro takes the detachable carry handle, so the A2 FS should work. Also, this is a short range round. For longer range shooting you would need to aim high, if the rear sight already sits higher than usual, the sighting process becomes more conducive to this type of trajectory, so the A2 FS does have merit ...

Threading - yes, we can do that, 5/8x24 thread. No charge.

Muzzle brake - Brownells sells the Shrewd and this is what we typically install. We found, however, that with the low pressure and big bore, the gas doesn't take much note of the brake and the brake is not very effective. One customer had us install the JP Recoil Eliminator and found it had no significant effect, whereas it definitely works with the high pressure rounds ... The Shrewd has the proper thread as is, so it is ready to install.

Pressure - 35,000 psi max. That's low for a rifle ...

Reloading - I finally had my first case head seperate after 5 reloads on that case ... We can supply an Excel spreadsheet with reloading data and several folks have worked up their own loads already.

Installing a SIR - the free floated hand gaurd would preclude that from being possible ...

Brouhaha/Cnatra - Fed Ex ground delivers within one day. But I can drop it off personally if you like.

What we need from you
- final agreement on the receiver type to be used (A3 or LoPro), we're assuming DPMS is acceptable.
- 20 adventurous soles (or 20 orders, DaveS ) more than 20 is OK ....
- agreement on the deadline to sign up - may we suggest Friday Sept 6, 2002, 23:59 hrs
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 7:48:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2002 7:50:11 PM EST by Fluxion]
Hey I want in on this deal! I have wanted one of these for a while now. I am going out of town on monday and I won't be back until sept 11 or 12, that is unless all hell breaks loose. What kind of rear sight would work with the a2 fs ?

Btw, whats the current configuration?

How soon do we need to mail the deposit? xcan it wait until I get back in town?

Link Posted: 8/29/2002 8:05:14 PM EST
Fluxion -

Don't worry, the proposed deadline for sign up is 9/6/02.

Deposits can be up to 9/20/02 (suggested date)?

Current config best I can tell
- A3 or Lo Pro receiver
- 16" barrel, brushed stainless, 0.93" diameter, 11° crown, threads for two volunteers
- DPMS free floated aluminum hand gaurd
- your choice of A2 FS, lo profile or 4 rail gas block

What sights work with the A2 FS? I would suggest the standard detachable carry handle or ARMS #40 for iron sights, other folks are using red dot type scopes or ACOG for optics. My personal upper sports an IOR 6x42 scope for hunting deer and mini-vans.


Link Posted: 8/29/2002 8:15:59 PM EST
Ok cool, 50% deposit, I'm in then...
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 8:19:17 PM EST
Are they shipping yet?

Link Posted: 8/29/2002 8:23:14 PM EST
AR15forfun -

Lemme guess, you're a UK grad, right?

Go U of L!

Link Posted: 8/29/2002 8:25:22 PM EST
WTF is that coming from? You coming to the Kyana shoot?


Originally Posted By MartytW:
AR15forfun -

Lemme guess, you're a UK grad, right?

Go U of L!


Link Posted: 8/29/2002 8:34:43 PM EST
Just kidding ....

Lived in Lou-a-vull for several years, went to school at da Ville. Love that town, love that area, wouldn't mind moving back some day ...

Kyana shoot? Didn't know there was one. Either way, can't make it, have to go to Tampa and then I have some uppers to build

Marty - Speed '92, '93
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 8:43:41 PM EST
Tally-Ho I'm In!

My preference:
Lowpro Receiver
4 Rail Gas Block

Where/when do I send money?

Link Posted: 8/29/2002 8:45:10 PM EST
That's ok, sorry you can't make it.


Doss 79,80,81, 82, 83, 85...


Link Posted: 8/29/2002 9:04:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2002 9:06:14 PM EST by Walt2]
LoPro receiver and A2 FS
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 9:19:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2002 9:33:25 PM EST by cnatra]
The wife will be pissed but I want one!!
I like the idea of something different.

I still working on funds to finish another project so if you can take a deposit via plastic or PayPal I'm definitely in!!

Could you elaborate on the magazines & capacity a bit.
AR 20rdr=7rds & AR 30rdr=10rds ??

Any modifications to the magazines required?

I don't really care about the upper as long as it's a flat-top
(is the extruded aluminum of the low-pro strong enough?) & would be prefer a gas block with a rail, 416R stainless barrel preferred.

p.s. I'm going to try & get my dad interested in one too, he likes big bores
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 3:06:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By MartytW:
Boy, y'all ask a lot of questions!

I started when I was 2, and my momma is still waiting for me to grow out of it.

A3 versus LoPro - I pulled out one of each and took the calipers to them, and cannot measure significant difference in height of the rail compared to location of hand guard.

The LoPro sounds good too me, then.

Threading - yes, we can do that, 5/8x24 thread. No charge.

I'm in for that!

Installing a SIR - the free floated hand gaurd would preclude that from being possible ...

Does that mean that this FF tube is non-removable, Marty? wouldn't it be possible to swap it out with at least a railed FF tube (RAS, whatever) with the usual tools?

To summarize, the LoPro is fine by me, and I'm in for:

Threaded bbl
4-rail gas block

Also, I have a few more questions:

1) Can I use a stock oly forged lower with an A2 stock/buffer? Is "enough"?

2) Any concern about optics & the .458 SOCOM recoil? Or should I be able to use any red-dot or holo sight that I put on my .223 upper?
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 3:28:13 AM EST
Just a quick note to every one committed to this GP. - Please send me your contact information via IM Mail or e-mail.

I will add you to the list and once compiled, send it off to MartyW.


Custom add-on (coordinate this with MartyW first)

If I don't hear from you, I'll be pinging you individually. I'm going to total our numbers up now...

Link Posted: 8/30/2002 5:13:06 AM EST

Looks as if we are hovering around 29 responses so far and that this is going to be a successful endeavor.

I am still waiting on contact information from many of you. If you email me, please include your AR15 screenname so I don't list you twice.

Also, DEFINITELY send your deposit ($350) to MartyW at Teppo Jutsu ASAP. I am going to go out on a limb here and state that the deposit will be refundable up until the Deposit cutoff date 9/20/02. MartyW -Please correct this and revise if needed.

MartyW, I'll most likely forward you the spreadsheet around COB today.

Link Posted: 8/30/2002 5:53:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2002 5:55:03 AM EST by brouhaha]

I know you work out of your home (or did), but would you mind if I came by to drop off the deposit? I'd also like to take a look at some of the examples of your work that you have on hand. If I post about what I see, it might help to alleviate some of the fears that others might have about what the finished product will look like.

And longshot,

I don't mind giving you my name and phone number, but any address I give you now will be wrong in about a month or less.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 5:54:19 AM EST
Hi guys,

I'm jumping in on the A3 upper bandwagon. I would like the FA and "non-locking" dust cover for wild boar (Russian). I would 3M masking tape the cover closed to keep crap out of the bolt and upper but this would allow the bolt to kick open the cover when it was time to go Hollywood on some boar hinnie. Just my thoughts. Marty?

Thankx guys,

Dave S
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 7:11:39 AM EST
Dumb questions here, but could someone post pics or links to what each of the propsed configurations look like? Meaning, what does a "A3 or Lo Pro receiver" look like

A "A2 FS, lo profile or 4 rail gas block" look like?

And will getting the barrel threaded have any effect on accuracy when the suppressor is NOT attached?

Link Posted: 8/30/2002 8:23:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2002 8:24:46 AM EST by SHIVAN]
How do I post a pic?
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 9:13:24 AM EST
I'm interested, but I have a couple questions:

1)Any chance of a longer barrel? I'll probably port it, so the longer barrel would be nice.

2) How much does the ammo run? How about brass?

3) Any chance of a muzzle brake?

My preferences would run towards a 18/20" barrel, with 4 rail gas block, low pro normal height upper and hopefully a discount on the dies.

If we go over 20, will there be a bigger discount? What is the estimated receipt date for us if we accomplish the 9/20 deadline for receipt of funds?
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 9:18:14 AM EST
Arrrrrrrrrggggg...... Count me in. Crap. Somebody want to split an order of brass? If I only get 4 or 5 uses each it's still only 8-10 cents a shot in brass expenses.

1. My vote is the low-pro, though I wouldn't be opposed to A3. I shoot lefty so the brass deflector would be nice if I forgot my brass catcher. I don't like the idea of getting hit in the nose with a brass pop can.

2. Barrel - 16" stainless is great. NON-threaded. I don't have a preban.

3. I'd prefer the 4 rail gassblock. Have one on my AR and I like it. With the myriad of folding sight options it wouldn't be a problem. Even have a Swan Sleeve and front folding I might put on it. Also nice to have an easy flashlight and laser mount.

4. DPMS float tube is fine. Could I get a sling stud on mine? Bipod for bench work needed.

Hope all this is okay.

If I had the Shrewd mounted to it is it same diameter as the barrel just in case I wanted to swap out gas blocks? My other question is can we get bulk rate on the dies? Thanks a bunch.

Longshot, I'll get my info to you in a little while.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 9:18:49 AM EST
Ammo is ~$31 from Corbon plus $7 shipping on every ORDER...so 1 box would be ~$38. But the ammo alone is ~$31. Brass is $400 for 1000 IIRC, think that is from the Teppo Jutsu website.

I think Marty at T-J is checking on a GB on the dies, but I'm sure we would need the same volume to make it real.

There is discussion about the muzzle break/longer barrel on the site as well as the other thread linked above. There were no benefits that they could see.


Link Posted: 8/30/2002 10:46:42 AM EST
God help me if the wife finds out (because she'll want one then as well!) - but I think I will get one as well.

My needs:

1. My vote is the A3, since it doesn't appear that there is any real difference between it and the lowpro, and you can have the added benefit of being able to attach a carry handle or optics. Having the brass deflector and dust cover is nice (if you want to tape it up temporarily).

2. Barrel - 16" stainless is great. Make mine a THREADED please for eventual suppressor addition :)

3. I'd prefer the 4 rail gassblock.

4. DPMS float tube is fine. I, also, would like to ensure that I can mount a bipod on it for bench work as well.

I may want to get 2 of these to these specs. Will have to let you know on that one.
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