1st Infantry Division is going to Iraq to replace 4th Infantry Division next year. (This is public knowledge, so don't beat me up about OPSEC).

I need some advise for a good 3 point sling that will fit over a flak vest, a foward grip and rail for an M4, and a durable optic sight to take with me.

I ain't rich but we E8s make good money.

I already have a Safariland 6004 holster for an M9, and we are getting the interceptor vests here soon.

Any suggestions?

No advice but shoot straight and stay safe.

I don't know what flexibility you have with items on your weapon or your MOS/duty position, but you can't go wrong with the issue stuff, just so you don't stick out so much.

So that would be the KAC M4 RAS, Aimpoint Railgrabber with spacer for an M2 (M68), KAC 300m backup sight, and if wanted, a KAC forward grip.

The longer GI issue sling attached normally will suffice for carry of your M4 over your gear.

I just arrived here at Bragg, so if it's decided that they need another E-8 over there, I'll be seein' ya  [;)]  ....


Chris

Chris,
I can get away with deviating from issue items with somewhat impunity. The power of an E8.

Usually if I show a new toy to the BN CDR, he goes out and buys it for the whole unit. He bought Eagle Industries, SAS MKIV thigh holsters along with tactical retention lanyards after I showed him mine. We wore them in Macedonia last year.

I have a new CDR now and I showed him my Safariland 6004 leg holster and now he plans to buy them and make it a BN standard.

As anal as 1ID usually is about standards, there are no restrictions on holsters or slings. I've seen all kinds.

The issue top sling adapter lets the weapon hang too low in the patrol position. It has to hang low to give you room to shoulder the weapon and fire. The sling attaches to the top of the buttstock and gets in the way of a good cheek position.

One of the lessons learned already from Iraq is the need for a 3 point sling. Wearing the issue sling over your opposite shoulder like we do in training is a bad idea in combat. You have to remove it from your shoulder to shoot. I learned this the hard way in Desert Storm I. I got the shit scared out of me as bullets were flying and i couldn't get the damn thing off my shoulder. It's amazing how fast you can move when the adrenaline is rushing.

I'm going to put a set of CAV Arms, Coyote brown furniture on it just because it's cool.

Thanks PAEBR332

I've been seeing a lot of reports that the M9 isn't fairing well in the sand there due to fine sand fouling the Beretta mags and causing too much friction for the follower to feed properly.

Might want to look at some Wolff extra power mag springs for the Beretta or at least a brush to keep the interior of the mag body clean.

i read somewhere that the beretta factory mags are good, but that the ones the army bought made by some other contractor suck nuts. so be sure you've got real factory mags and you should be cool.

If you've got an M4, you shouldn't need the top sling adapter.  On mine that I had in Korea I attached the front of the GI sling to the side sling swivel on the barrel at the front sight assembly, and the rear of the sling at the sling attachment point on the collapsible stock, LOOSELY attached around the buffer tube.

There's two lengths of GI slings, a short and long, and you've got to use the long.  

With my long GI sling LOOSELY attached as such, I was able to carry my M4 in a muzzle down position, around my LBV and vest, and could bring the weapon to my shoulder quickly with no difficulties with cheek weld.

Now if you're issued A2's, then that's a different story.



I see exactly what you're saying, and you make an excellent point.  Problem is, I haven't been exposed to 3-points yet, so I can't give you any info on them.


Chris

To be a bit different;

Hey Top, when you going to Fort Bliss and The Academy?

I read the reports about the M9 in Afghanistan and Iraq. The sand in the mags was only part of the problem. If it was me, I would see if I could carry a .45 or 10mm, something stout and robust like a Wilson, H&K or Springfield. Not cheap, but hey, you only got one time to go around on this planet. Just my two cents. I carried the M9 while I was on active duty and was not impressed with it's reliability.

For the sling:
[url]http://www.tacticaltailor.com/catalog/slings.htm[/url]

for the grip - well, you can get one of those anywhere.

for the forarm on a budget look at the oly arms FIRSH handguards.

for the optic - need more info.  Magnified or non?  Illuminated or not? Battery powered?  or do you think batteries will be hard to come by?  

For the sling, go with either the CQB Solutions SOP or the Giles 3-point.  The SOP will have the TRB which gives you slack for a transition to your left shoulder.  The Giles doesn't have the feature, but is made of stiffer and sturdier nylon.  It will depend on your needs.

The FIRSH isn't going to have the superior cooling abilities of a RAS or SIR.  Are you issued an M4 or an M16.  If the 16, is it an A2 or a flattop?  Can you or an armorer install a free float tube?  If so this is my reccomendation for an M16A2:

A Knight's FF RAS, A front side sling adaptor of your choice with a 3-point sling of your choice.  Either an Aimpoint or an EOTech, depending on your tastes, or even an ACOG if you want to shell out that kind of cash.  A TangoDown BattleGrip to store your batteries and either a VLTOR or a Magpul stock.

For an M4, I will second the RAS II plus the above items.  You have a few months before your deployment, so you can try a couple of items and sell them on the EE if you don't like them.  Or maybe your CO will approve some unit testing with the new gear and flip the bill.

Heck, why don't you just contact WES at MSTN.  He knows his stuff and will give you advice and a good deal on what you want.

You don't sound like any Infantry E8 I've ever met.  I am an E6 and the my senior NCO's ussually enforce uniformity standards to the letter, unless its cools stuff the unit issues us.  Good luck over there stay safe.

Tangochaser,

Take care of yourself, will be thinking about you down there.  

I knew they were deploying some 1st from Riley, but I didn't know you guys over in krautland were going too.
I've known for a month or so, but it seems to just have hit the media last week. It was frontpage on the KC Star sunday I believe.
Stay safe bro.

I am a MSG, currently assigned as a Field Artillery (MLRS) S2 NCOIC (Intelligence Section). I will am issued an M16A2 but will have an M4 in Iraq. I could also be reassigned as a 1SG prior to or while in Iraq and will end up with a M9.

My last deployment was to Kosovo/Macedonia last year and we did not have an artillery mission. We were doing Force Protection and convoy escorts. I do not know what our mission in Iraq will be, but I am preparing for another infantry type mission. The artillery units there now are knocking down doors looking for Saddam and his cronies.

Bartholomew_Roberts, Thanks, I forgot all about Wolf springs. I will get some.

2minkey,I've collected a hand full of factory mags over the years and have tested them all at the range.

Gigghlesmith, I was at the academy in "99 for the 1SG course. I won't be back until I make SGM. I hope I make the cut this year but I'm not holding my breath. I've puissed off too many CSMs over the years. I believe, if the training or whatever mission we are doing doesn't make us more combat ready, we shouldn't be doing it. Sad to say this isn't polically correct in the Army these days. True warfighters are becoming scarce. Ticket punching seems to be the rage these days.

Troy, I have been considering the CQB SOP sling in tan. I think that is the route i will go. We do not have any optic sights like the infantry are issued so I was thinking of getting my own M2. Still debating. The EOTECH is being used by some over there with great success.

DR_, There is a standing general order against Privately Owned Firearms in a combat zone. We got away with it in Desert Storm but they are prosecuting now a days. If I had my own Beretta M92, I might chance it but becasue of the Nazi gun laws in Germany now, that can't happen.

NoCompromise, I do not accept unacceptable standards when possible. I learned some valuable lessons first hand from Desert Storm and have been working hard to incorporate these lessons into the training in whatever unit I'm assigned to. Yeah, I know it looks bad for a senior NCO to say he doesn't follow standards but if that standard is based on everyone looking "dress right, dress" instead of on combat survival, I will make all attempts to change the standard. I never put my soldiers integrity in jepordy when it comes to standards but I will and have put my rank on the line for a stupid, dangerous "let's all look the same" standard and will continue to do so. I do this on a case by case basis. I have blatantly disobeyed orders that were about to get me NEEDLESSLY killed or injured. I won the fight afterwords because I was right. The orders were bad orders. I believe it is my inherent responsibility to prevent the execution of bad, dangerous orders from inexperienced officers.

MP_LT, thanks, how are you doing Sir?

MP_LT and I are in 2 different countries but ran into each other at an Army Safety Officers course in Vilsek, Germany. He saw me reading the Shotgun News during class breaks.

Sorry about writing a novel.

Problem with the M9 mag is that the double stack of rounds in the mag's body "funnel" into a single column at the feed lips.  This movement requires the double stacked rounds to rotate like roller-bearings as the upper rounds are stripped, and while bearing against each other under spring pressure (so I think "more" spring pressure is not the fix).  It shocked me during DS when a demo with a zip-lock bag, a loaded M9 mag, and a tablespoon of Saudi-Arabia, and a little "shake & bake" absolutely locked this mag up.  In other words, a little frosting of powered Saudi coating each round in the stack prevented the rounds from rolling against each other, and after the first round was stripped from the mag, the remaining rounds did not move and were locked-in solid.
My advice, bag your mags.

Another reason why I like single stack guns.

Ditto with the advice about bagging your mags or at least keep them in one of your pockets and I would even go so far as to empty the magazine every now and then and wipe/blow everything out. I'm not in the military but I do have a 92fs and can see where a little grit can wreak havoc with feeding. I'd also consider sneaking in a back-up for it, maybe a .357 or .38 revolver that will not be affected as much by dirt, I would. Also consider taking a shotgun and plenty of 00 buckshot to keep nearby. They're inexpensive, easily maintained and an excellent choice for close in situations which is what you will more than likely be dealing with. Nevermind the Army regulations concerning bringing your own weapons.  Those jackasses are not the ones who are going to get shot shot at, you are. Keep your eyes open and stay safe.

I get pretty religious about cleaning my weapon and magazines in the desert. I reload all my mags every morning and change out any round that sat in the barrel for a lengthly period.

I will make that suggestion to all M9 shooters to keep the spare mags in a pocket when not on patrol.

That sand is more like talcum powder and gets into everything.

I haven't used an M9 in the desert but I have briken the code for keeping an M16 running. Keep the barrel clean, and 3 or 4 times a day, wipe down the bolt/bolt carrier and the upper receiver where the bolt carrier rides. Everything else will work with sand in it. The buffer and spring will make a lot of noise with sand in the tube but will still run. I got sand in between the bolt carrier and receiver when I was training at NTC, California and lock it up so tight, we had to hammer the bolt carrier open to get the upper receiver removed. Left 1/8" gouges in the upper receiver where the carrier rides. Lesson learned.

I am going to try some dry graphite lubricant at the range before I go and see if it helps.

Top,

Everything I'm reading from the sandbox tells me the Army is advising the troops to run their weapons dry. No CLP or LSA at all. The M-16 \ M-4 has a coating that's suposed to allow the rifle to run dry in case CLP isn't available. Graphite or other non oil based lubes may be of some help. Bushmaster sells a moly paste that you wipe on and wipe off. The moly stays on the metal, the grease comes off. The result is a perminant moly coating that dosen't need oil to function.

On an unrelated note, I was in B-2-16 in 1983. Stay safe and come home in one piece.

Can't help you on the modern-day stuff, but in regards to cleaning gear and supplies: don't use clp, or if you do, wipe it out with clean cloth so just a light film remains. Then carry small cans of wd40 spray to unjam it when they freeze up on you. I carried wd40 in Nam, and used it a number of times in battle to unstick the bolt carrier. Works great, and is even a good temporary lube, though I'v heard from some that wd40 kills primers. I never experienced that. Also get a parts washer brush. the long stiff bristles get into the small, tight spots good.
Good luck and best wishes! OJF

A shaving cream brush works great for getting dust and sand out of nooks and tight spots. Also fits in most cleaning kits (not in a stock though). Been using one for the last 15 years.
SFC McChesney

I really appreciate the "well wishes" and suggestions from you guys.

I have run a dry weapon in the desert before and it works but the weapon does heat up alot faster when firing.

When I hit the ground, I will post my location on this site. if any of you guys on active duty are over there, come look me up.

MSG Bill Putnam

Stay safe over there Tangochaser. Thank God for you NCO's. You guys really are the glue that holds the army together.

-Charging Handle

He's absolutely correct top.  the RAS or SIR are both much better than the FIRSH...  but since you mentioned that you aint rich I suggested the FIRSH since it costs under $100 versus several hundred for either of the other options.

P.S.  on the sling make sure it has a quick release so you can get out of it in a hurry...  if maybe it gets caught on a vehicle or aircraft and you re hanging  by a weapon around you neck. Ask me how I know. ;)

[url=http://www.sftt.org/article06102003a.html]Small Arms and Individual Equipment Lessons from Operation Iraqi Freedom[/url]

Get a couple of 1 oz. bottles of Militec.

Wipe or brush your weapon down daily with a rag, small paint or acid brush or toothbrush and a couple of drops of Militec, etc.. to remove the dust and loose carbon, then lube, 'wipe dry' and reassemble.

Then drop two drops down the lube holes in the bolt and close the dust cover. And don't forget to put a piece of electrical tape over the drain hole in the buffer tube.

CLP is bad news. It attracts dust and is too runny and evaporative to be effective, especially in hot conditions.

You may also consider taking ziplock or plastic garbage bags for magazines, etc..... when not needed. These things are lightweight, take up almost no room at all, and are the deal for keeping ammo, and gear dirt and dust free when you're not actively using them.

And good luck soldier.

Well said as always Troy, I can't believe they had the balls to promote their product in such a manner. That makes me sick. [puke]

I second that. Miltec can suck the sweat off a dead mans' balls before I'll buy it.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Go Army, beat Navy!

Stay safe Top.  Keep your weapon clean and your socks powdered, we former grunts are counting on you current guys to keep us safe.

Alex

1ID is slated to replace 4th ID in Northern Iraq, With any luck, it will be our guys that catch that ragheaded bastard.

I'd agree..Militec does suck.  I had my SWS lubed with it and it got rusty around the Bi-Lock overnight in the field in INDIANA!!

TANGOCHASER,

Good luck, Top.  If you're going to be one, be a Big Red One.  [8D]

Hey GackMan. It's W30olds from glocktalk. Didn't know you're an AR fan.

Tangochaser be safe, and watch your 6 over in Iraq. Kill that bastard Sodamn Insane so you guys can come back home!!!

yeah - it is an incestuous little gun community we live in.  :)

Well I ordered a Tan, Cav Arms M4 stock set from Coal Creek Armory along with a CQB SOP sling in Tan.

I'm split between an EOTECH or Aimpoint M2 for optics. When I get my tax return next year, I will probably be gone already but I will invest in a SOF Trijicon. I like the fact it uses no batteries and has built in back up sights.

I've experimented with painting a parkerized barrel in case I decide to go full desert tan on my M4. I used the camoflauge paint sold in the PX and the good news is it wears OK and comes off quick with carburator cleaner.

Better to ask forgiveness than permission.

My chain of command put a request in for the division to pay for Safariland 6004 holsters, tactical retention lanyards, bore sighters, and a host of other goodies. We'll see if the division gives in and pays. We are already told we're getting Interceptor vests and Camel Backs.

@#$%&??????? Some NCO's

Tango,

 Belive we've talked a few times before.  I just PCS'd from my SOF unit in Stuttgart last month.  Also a E8 and former S2 NCOIC.

 I report into my new unit next weekend and I'll get you all the NSNs for the items that you require.  

 God speed over in the sand box.  My new CSM mentioned he might pull me down there soon (known him for 19 years).  My son is also slated to go next Mar with 1st Cav.

De Oppresso Liber

Thanks, that's pretty cool.

[b]Tango[/b]
This response is probably too late in the game for you, as you state that you are leaning toward the CQB sling...

I've got an Eagle 3-point sling on my rifle, and will get the eagle for my new M4...
However, I did consider the CQB myself.

I can get the other sling here locally, so that was the only reason I opt'd for the Eagle...

My M4 has the EOtech 522 on it and I will be shooting it for the first time tommorow...

You seem to have been around, so this advice might be redundant...
When I was traveling abroad I found that learning some of the "native" language (especially greetings, and such) helps to win friends and influence people...
Any friends I made abroad always watched my back and warned me of trouble, simply because I was a friend and important to them...

Also, one of our members from Missouri is training the Iraqis over there, and he relayed that the AK's they shoot are not zero sighted, and the Iraqis were clueless about sighting their weapons - couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from what I gathered...
check it out...
[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=32&t=172661[/url]

Be safe, and keep your head down anyway...

[sniper2]

RjSteed,
Are you in the Army? Is there some reason you are busting my chops? You made a smart ass comment on my EE post also.

I will say this again for the record. I have been in combat before and have traded bullets with Iraqis once already. Some of the equipment the Army issued failed me while in combat and it will never happen again. I am taking my own lessons learned from actual combat and applying them to my next combat assignment.

If you can't understand that, I'm done talking. If you don't sleep with me or sign my paycheck, i don't care what you think.

Combat_Diver,

The NSNs are sorely needed. I sent a list of equipment suggestions to my BN CDR and now all the company CDRs are asking me for NSNs. Dose the EOTECh have an NSN?

By the way, how's your hip?

Cutter75,
I bought one of SPEC OPS Brand "Mamba", 3-point slings just to check it out. I really like it. The floating strap stays tight against the side of the weapon so it doesn't hang up on any web gear. It also has a quick release buckle. I ordered one in desert tan.

I cancelled my order for tan stocks with CAV Arms as they are sold out. I ordered a tan and coyote brown grip and will see which color I think will work best before I get the whole set.

You are correct about knowing some simple words. I still remember how to tell an Iraqi "Stop or I'll kill you." I will learn some nicer words before I go.

I'm not afraid of a bad guy with an AK or even several bad guys with AKs. The only thing I do bettrer than shoot is land navigation. Iam however scared of land mines. A few years ago, I drove into a live mine field and did not know it until I saw the back side of the warning sign on the other side of the field. I backed up in my own tracks for about 75 meters. Serious pucker factor.

1SG,
  My Eagle 3 point sling was the sh*t in afganistan. Some people bought blachawk vests, but I used the issue molle vest and it was fine. if you can lay you hands on one the new mitch helmets, its worth its weight in gold compared to the old kpot.  
                Good luck
                      SSG Tharpe

Tango,

 Hip is doing fine, Thanks for asking.  Will get another Xray taken when I report in next week.  Need to get a current dive physical for it looks like I'll be back on paid dive status.

 Currently I'm down in San Antonio and will vist my son at Ft Hood tomorrow.  I'll get those numbers for Group when I get back.

CD

PS-Pulled out my CAR-15 and M1911 yesterday and did a few drills.  Felt good to have my old friends back after three years.  Insha'alla!

Wes,

I have almost 22 years in and I am not that skinny anymore. I have alot more room on my waist now. I have alreadt attached a nylon mag/knife holder on my 6004. It's cheap so I will lokk for a better one.

Blackhawk makes a kevlar flight style glove that is much stronger than issue under the Hellstorm name. I'm goining to try a set.

The world of flashlights is as vast as 3 point slings. I'm considering a Surefire G2 or maybe an M3 (for no reason other than I can get them local and not have to order one),and am looking at mounting options. I want to mount it so it does not intefer with my line of sight or side vision. This leaves a below the barrel/hand guards location.

I will get a vertical grip and thanks for telling me the KAC has a NSN. I know I can get my command to pay for things that they can order through the system.

I have never had the mag problems others have. I have 14 new in the wrapper M16 mags I plan on taking. I always have mags in my LBV even during training.

I've been wearing skate boarder knee pads for about 10 years now. I am going to replace them with pads that have a rubberized shell instead of the plastic I now have. The plastic ones slide on slick objects and do not conform to uneven kneeling surfaces.

Once I get all my equipment together, I'll let you guys know what I finally went with and I'll give you a staus report once I hit the ground on how well the equipment holds up.

Two points:
(1) NSN's and Army Part Numbers for all the Vertical Grip, RAS, Panels, screws, etc. are illustrated & listed in Change 6 to the Army TM......23&P for the M16/M4.  If you don't have a copy of this in your armory, your Army/Unit Level publication distribution system is broke.  I fax about 4 copies of this a month to armorers or arms rooms that don't have it, so I know the system is not working.  I also understand that there is a change 7 as well that corrects some mistakes in Change 6, but I don't have a copy (but I need one...anybody???)

(2) The most unreliable magazines on the planet are those brand new ones in the unopened bags.  Break them out and fire the sh*t out of them.
I could go on & on here about "new magazines" but don't have the time here.  Just take my word for it.

I will use all my new magazines in the next few months as we go back to the range again. I also have about 40 old ones that I have been using quite regular and they function 100%. I will not use untried mags.

I had a copy of the new 23&P for the M16/M4 but I lost it. I know my arms rooms are broke on pubs as I inspected them for physical security.

Every unit has one gun savy guy and in mine, I guess it's me.