Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 4
Posted: 9/2/2004 7:29:41 AM EST
OK, making final decisions on the kit I'm ordering real soon... we are limitting this discussion to 16" pre-ban unlined, unfluted, chrome-moly non-dissipator configurations... What are the comparative advantages and disadvantages of the Heavy, Lightweight, and M4 barrels offered by many folks? Is the M4 in between the others as far is weight is concerned? Same with accuracy and stringing shots? Why the complex profile of the M4? Which is more flexible in terms of accessories availability and options? I'm really bewildered by the choices. Thanks!
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 7:47:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 7:47:53 AM EST by fight4yourrights]
Bushmaster chromelined, 4150 barrel steel, 16" SLW is the ticket.

Why would you want chromoly 4140, unlined? A chromelined will last twice as long, be easier to clean, and most likely is more accurate than you can shoot anyway.

The M4 should hold it's accuracy better as it heats up, though I've pounded a 16" SLW and it held fine for me.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 12:15:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 12:20:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:
Go look at the pics of barrel assemblies on the Bushmaster web site. It should answer all of your questions.



Belive me, I've look at a lot of pics... not just theirs... and OK, I SEE the difference, but I want to try to quantify the difference and learn the pitfalls.... like if I choose an M4, what might I regret... or if I choose a lightweight or HBar, what might I miss by not having an M4. Its the nuances I'm worried about.

BTW - thanks for the ammo oracle... I've saved the link - very interesting and useful!!!
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 12:23:41 PM EST
If you choose an HBar, you will regret it when you are humping for a few hours in a Tactical Carbine course


If you choose an M4, you won't regret it. You will wonder why you have such complicated cuts, considering that you don't plan on adding an M203 grenade launcher

If you choose a SLW, you wont' regret it.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 12:39:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
If you choose a SLW, you wont' regret it.



+100
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 3:27:36 PM EST

If you choose an HBar, you will regret it when you are humping for a few hours in a Tactical Carbine course



That's funny, I blew thru 900 rd in a 3 day course end of July and had no problem's, you should try slappin the twinky out of your pie hole and pop a vitamin.
it's funny how we have evolved from 12 lb muskets to 9 lb garands and people still sweat the 1/2 pound difference between a M-4 profile and an HBAR.

plarkinjr. somebody asks this question about once a week. do a search and read the post's. then make up your own mind.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:38:23 PM EST
As others have said, after handling a 16" SLW, it feels like a brick has been removed from the barrel.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:38:40 PM EST
My HBAR 14.5 carbine loaded is the same weight as a full size govt A2 loaded.A 1/2 pound isnt much to have in my opinion a more reliable barrel and with every thing people pimp out their rifles with is a 1/2 pound really a concern if so do like me and lose a few pounds and hit the weights.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:56:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By Harv24:

If you choose an HBar, you will regret it when you are humping for a few hours in a Tactical Carbine course



That's funny, I blew thru 900 rd in a 3 day course end of July and had no problem's, you should try slappin the twinky out of your pie hole and pop a vitamin.how
plarkinjr. somebody asks this question about once a week. do a search and read the post's. then make up your own mind.



Word. hmaster
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 6:41:32 PM EST
For all you studs, why not hump a bull barrel then?


Me, I'd rather carry more ammunition.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 7:25:28 PM EST
I wonder how many of the studs have optics and/or lights on those HBARs as well?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:07:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
If you choose an HBar, you will regret it when you are humping for a few hours in a Tactical Carbine course


If you choose an M4, you won't regret it. You will wonder why you have such complicated cuts, considering that you don't plan on adding an M203 grenade launcher

If you choose a SLW, you wont' regret it.



I'm a Carpenter. You should try humping microlam beams and stacks of 2x10's on your shoulders in the 90 degree heat, that will make carrying your carbine child's play.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:19:18 AM EST
I'm completely confident that a properly ventilated FF forearm is a bigger bonus to the semi-auto platform than a heavy barrel for cooling, accuracy, and precision.

That said, the only place I do want extra mass in my barrel is the first few inches past the chamber throat.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:37:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By patriot73:


I'm a Carpenter. You should try humping microlam beams and stacks of 2x10's on your shoulders in the 90 degree heat, that will make carrying your carbine child's play.



Fine, you win.


Still, you could carry more ammo or water if you had a lighter weapon.


That's Physics 101.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:57:17 AM EST
This isn't a deadlift competition. There is also leverage. The HBAR puts wieght too far from the pistol grip and shoulder for me.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:14:10 AM EST
Get the lightweight and put rocks in your pockets if you want to be a stud.


Why pack it if you don't have to?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:27:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 8:28:20 AM EST by Not_A_Llama]
HBAR doesn't increase reliability. At all.

Why burden yourself? You can't fool physics. Sure, you can swing that HBAR fast, but you could swing it faster if it were lighter. Fast wins fights, not heavy.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:43:30 AM EST
m4 contour is the way to go... its light enough... but not too light
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 9:13:40 AM EST
[quoteI wonder how many of the studs have optics and/or lights on those HBARs as wellquote]

Aimpoint and a surefire with a RAS on mine.
Am I a Stud cause my Carbine has an HBAR?? according to a few of you the answer is Yes!!!
So I want to thank you all for the compliment. But some of you are killin me when you equate an extra 1/2 pound on what is already a pretty light weight weapon. You all make it sound that your doomed to dehyrdration cause now you can no longer carry the extra water or your SHTF scenario is now compromised because the extra Magazine you can no longer carry left you short 30 rds......
C'mon guys, lets put this in perspective. no one is gonna be the worse off with an HBAR. your not gonna be sorry in a Class if you have one, it's not gonna limit your water and Ammo for what ever scenario you have planned. it a Chevy/Ford thing and no more. You all have an opinion on what you like, but don't try to sell it based on all the above "you'll be sorry" situations.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 9:26:14 AM EST
I had my 16" HBAR turned down under the handguards to the same OD as forward of the front sight base. To me it seems like the best compromise. It lost some weight, doesn't have those M203 cuts, and still has heat stability.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 9:46:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Harv24:
[your not gonna be sorry in a Class if you have one,


I've already talked with lots of people who disagree with your on that. Many have changed to M4 or LW profiles (or go to 16" from a 20" barrel) after taking a decent 3-5 day course.


it a Chevy/Ford thing and no more.



Except I can take a shot timer and PROVE you're faster on target with the lighter barrel. That's objective - not subjective.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 9:49:19 AM EST
The HBARs add unnecessary weight, if you want it on your weapon good on ya'h but it's not doing anything for you on a combat weapon.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 9:57:23 AM EST
For those that think the Hbar is fine, do you have both to really compare the two?


Once you handle a SLW, I don't see who would want to go back to an Hbar.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 10:07:37 AM EST
Awesome thread... I'm in the same boat!

Lookin at an M4 barrel now...


- BG
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 10:43:21 AM EST

Except I can take a shot timer and PROVE you're faster on target with the lighter barrel. That's objective - not subjective.


So what your saying is equiptment makes one better, or in this case faster, and not the finger behind the trigger or the brain housing group!!!. So I'm always gonna be slower then a shooter with a lighter profile barrel.




That must explain why everyone on this board buys all that fancy new equiptment.
C'mon Forrest,,, I think your smarter then that.. it's NEVER about the equiptment...

And yes. I carried a M-4 MWS my last 2 years with Uncle Sugar, and with a VFG and a Paq-4 and a M-68 CCO it was


[quote I've already talked with lots of people who disagree with your on that. Many have changed to M4 or LW profiles (or go to 16" from a 20" barrel) after taking a decent 3-5 day course. quote]

I think Pat Rogers Qualifies as a DECENT course, and a good percentage of the students were not use to what is considered moderate physical exhertion. and most carried a rifle,a belt with 1-2 mags and a pistol/Holster. pretty light load out. a lighter barrel is just a band-aid fix for a little bit of regular excercise.


And yes. I carried a M-4 MWS my last 2 years with Uncle Sugar, and with a VFG and a Paq-4 and a M-68 CCO it was

[quote for those that think the Hbar is fine, do you have both to really compare the two?
quote]



And yes. I carried a M-4 MWS my last 2 years with Uncle Sugar, and with a VFG and a Paq-4 and a M-68 CCO and the weight was never an issue. And I never saw my M-4/M203 guys pissin and Moaning carrying that!!!(lets not forget the M240B guys!!!)

But I'm glad we differ in our choices, cause it sure would be boring if we all had the same cookie cutter set up
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:01:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Harv24:

Except I can take a shot timer and PROVE you're faster on target with the lighter barrel. That's objective - not subjective.


So what your saying is equiptment makes one better, or in this case faster, and not the finger behind the trigger or the brain housing group!!!. So I'm always gonna be slower then a shooter with a lighter profile barrel.



Please brush up on your reading skills before posting.

I said YOU will be faster with a lighter barrel than YOU would be with an HBAR. That's a fact.

You can't compare Shooter X with a LW to Shooter Y with an HBAR because you'll have the variables of strength and skill.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:07:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 1:17:07 PM EST by QuietShootr]

Originally Posted By Harv24:


I think Pat Rogers Qualifies as a DECENT course, and a good percentage of the students were not use to what is considered moderate physical exhertion. and most carried a rifle,a belt with 1-2 mags and a pistol/Holster. pretty light load out. a lighter barrel is just a band-aid fix for a little bit of regular excercise.





Let's give credit where credit is due..some of us carried a LOT more than that

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 2:01:14 PM EST
For me, the m-4 with the slightly heavier muzzel, swings and points better, but YMMV.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:03:12 PM EST
Terrry, You ARE a stud.... (Who pulled TWO 3 day classes back to back in full Kit!!

C'mon Forrest, your not gonna pull the Ole"brush up on your reading skills" trick that is such a famous Internet forum battle cry.. Your quote was a general statement and could be interpreted as You proving ANYONE would be faster, not just me.

You and I Will just have to agree to disagree on the merits of HBAR's.
For those still deciding, try both if you can and see what works for you
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:13:58 PM EST
LW or M4.

Personally tho I think 16" M4 barrels dont look right. I have an M4 but its 14.5" with a vortex G6. I am also getting an AR-15A2 govt carbine and that has a 16" pencil barrel.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:03:37 PM EST
i like HBARs to make poor mans target guns with, they do seem to shoot a little better than the skinny profile ones once they heat up. at least when your talking about punching paper for accuracy. eventhough i had a colt M4 1in7 barrel that was MORE accurate than a colt 20 HBAR 1in7 when using 55gr xm193 ammo.

other than that i like the lighter weight profile barrels for patrol carry and CQB fun.

buy one of each and try them both. you may find you need 2 rifles!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:17:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By mr_h:
i had a colt M4 1in7 barrel that was MORE accurate than a colt 20 HBAR 1in7 when using 55gr xm193 ammo.


This is as expected. Shorter barrels are more precise than longer barrels.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:32:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 5:36:53 PM EST by mr_h]
thats what i have heard, that long barrels tend to have more whip and different harmonics.(?) still though, even a HBAR? i could see it in skinny profile barrels (with long vs short ones)

i have an reg SBR 11.5" barrel that is heavy and flutted with the ff ras and that thing is wicked accurate out to 100 yards compared to to any skinny or M4 and even the 20" HBAR.

it really doesn't matter for me though. any barrel i have shoots better than i do, I am just a 3 MOA shooter. every once in a while i could shoot 1 MOA with my 308 rem 700 i use to have, but not very often.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:35:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Harv24:
Terrry, You ARE a stud.... (Who pulled TWO 3 day classes back to back in full Kit!!

C'mon Forrest, your not gonna pull the Ole"brush up on your reading skills" trick that is such a famous Internet forum battle cry.. Your quote was a general statement and could be interpreted as You proving ANYONE would be faster, not just me.

You and I Will just have to agree to disagree on the merits of HBAR's.
For those still deciding, try both if you can and see what works for you



We just won't mention all the "Vitamin I" that kept me going...
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 6:03:33 PM EST
i just ordered a pre-ban 16" slw this past weds.

bushmaster has the slw in stock, the preban 16" m4 patrolman had a 10 day ~ 2 week wait

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:57:47 PM EST
Personally I think the weight arguement is something that will never be solved.

Some people get it, some dont.

Having tried to explain why I have chosen Cav lowers over metal ones 90 times over, its pointless to someone who throws up "It builds muscle" "its one pound" "get a sling" then JUST DONT GET IT.


Personally M4 or lighweight is what Im after. I carry my rifle more than I shoot it. And I can shoot my lighweight as hard as I can my HBAR. So...

Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:10:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By patriot73:


I'm a Carpenter. You should try humping microlam beams and stacks of 2x10's on your shoulders in the 90 degree heat, that will make carrying your carbine child's play.



Fine, you win.


Still, you could carry more ammo or water if you had a lighter weapon.


That's Physics 101.




You are right. But I wouldn't hump an AR anyway. I'd have my M1A and hoards of .308. Don't say it can't be done, I have done it and if you are in good shape, it's hardly a big deal. I know a guy that humped a BAR in Vietnam. Yes a BAR in Nam. My Cousin was 652nd, you should hear about the stuff those guys humped from Kuwait to Baghdad, good Lord. I think it's a bad practice to focus on carrying the easiest thing possible, that's not how you prepare. Just MHO.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:16:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Harv24:

Except I can take a shot timer and PROVE you're faster on target with the lighter barrel. That's objective - not subjective.


So what your saying is equiptment makes one better, or in this case faster, and not the finger behind the trigger or the brain housing group!!!. So I'm always gonna be slower then a shooter with a lighter profile barrel.



Please brush up on your reading skills before posting.

I said YOU will be faster with a lighter barrel than YOU would be with an HBAR. That's a fact.

You can't compare Shooter X with a LW to Shooter Y with an HBAR because you'll have the variables of strength and skill.



That's far from fact and I believe that is the stupidest comment I have ever read on this board.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:17:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

Originally Posted By Harv24:


I think Pat Rogers Qualifies as a DECENT course, and a good percentage of the students were not use to what is considered moderate physical exhertion. and most carried a rifle,a belt with 1-2 mags and a pistol/Holster. pretty light load out. a lighter barrel is just a band-aid fix for a little bit of regular excercise.





Let's give credit where credit is due..some of us carried a LOT more than that

sniper.rsvs.net/QSEAG.jpg



And another problem, the biggest problem, these guys are all fat. I don't see one fit person in this picture. The barrel is not the problem. What a crock.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:19:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 5:21:41 AM EST by QuietShootr]
Right. PSYWAR1_0 to my left, is really a fat ass. 5'8" or so with about a 32" waist. Then there's Sully of Defensive Edge, further down the line in the desert boonie... Oh, and Steve Tarani was in that class, too..bet he hasn't seen his dick in years. As for me, yeah, I'm fat..but I can run, jump, carry a hundred pounds of gear as long as you'd like, and I passed the MEU(SOC) carbine qual in full gear including a ruck and helmet.

What was your point again?
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:26:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By patriot73:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Harv24:

Except I can take a shot timer and PROVE you're faster on target with the lighter barrel. That's objective - not subjective.


So what your saying is equiptment makes one better, or in this case faster, and not the finger behind the trigger or the brain housing group!!!. So I'm always gonna be slower then a shooter with a lighter profile barrel.



Please brush up on your reading skills before posting.

I said YOU will be faster with a lighter barrel than YOU would be with an HBAR. That's a fact.

You can't compare Shooter X with a LW to Shooter Y with an HBAR because you'll have the variables of strength and skill.



That's far from fact and I believe that is the stupidest comment I have ever read on this board.



And THAT is an ignorant comment. You can't compare your shooting ability to mine, for instance, and attribute the differences to the weight of the barrel.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:12:04 AM EST
Fine, you may be right. My point was that a blanket statement saying that a HBAR is somehow slower to wield that a standard barrel is stupid. That picture still looks like not the fittest crew out there, not to be offensive. I think some physical training would prove useful if the extra pound that an HBAR adds is even a thought. In certain exercises in the military, you have to carry exceptional amounts of weight. They jump you up on a scale and if you don't weigh enough, you don't go. And that's with a full length A2 strapped on. I'm sorry if I offended.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:16:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By patriot73:
Fine, you may be right. My point was that a blanket statement saying that a HBAR is somehow slower to wield that a standard barrel is stupid. That picture still looks like not the fittest crew out there, not to be offensive. I think some physical training would prove useful if the extra pound that an HBAR adds is even a thought. In certain exercises in the military, you have to carry exceptional amounts of weight. They jump you up on a scale and if you don't weigh enough, you don't go. And that's with a full length A2 strapped on. I'm sorry if I offended.



Patriot73

I get around 20-25 miles a week in PT, I would be considered fit and I still stay any extra weight on a rifle that is not required is not required if it is a combat weapon.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:17:55 AM EST

That's far from fact and I believe that is the stupidest comment I have ever read on this board.


Haven't read much of the board lately?
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:42:20 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:48:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:50:46 AM EST
I took two carbine courses with an M4 profile and both times i noticed the weight hanging out there, along with a surefire light. Towards the end of each day my muzzle would go lower and lower as i was doing tac-loads and other one-handed excercises. Then last month i took a third with a bushy 16" LW and it was a world of difference.

If you don't need the weight up front for muzzle flip management (not with a .223! ) or mounting a grenade launcher, then its just wasted weight that will slow you down.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:53:59 AM EST
THe M4A1 is a Hbar!!!

Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:55:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:57:01 AM EST
Yes and no, since some of the units getting them have a tendency to burn off allot of rounds in full auto on break contact drills. Some of the newer ones have full length HBARs. However since most aren't going to do allot of full auto break contact drills the extra mass to act as a heat sink isn't required for what would amount to combat accuracy.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 4
Top Top