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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/19/2003 7:59:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2003 7:43:52 AM EDT by mikepenn33]
switching to a 16 inch barrel?
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:16:30 PM EDT
who?
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:32:43 PM EDT
Smart people should be using 16 inch barrels. The 14.5 provides absolutely no benefits other than 1.5 more inches of clearance in a CQB setting. How many of you out there do live fire room clearing with your ARs? With a 16 inch you get better muzzle velocity, more accuracy, ect ect. If being able to connect a bayonet to your weapon so you can look at it for a few minutes and say "cool" means more to you than the performance of your weapon, then stick with a 14.5". Otherwise, its 16" all the way.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:40:17 PM EDT
Not me - give me a 20"
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:42:20 PM EDT
I see no benefit to using 16 inch barrels in CQB. At ten feet, the velocity difference is not a big deal, and I would rather have the shorter gun. That said, I made sure to get 1/7 so I can use heavy bullets.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:50:22 PM EDT
Nice thing about a modular weapon systems.. 1) 14.5" Flattop with EOTech & Surefire 500A (True CQB upper ok with batteries) 2) 16" with ReflexII (Versatile upper with no batteries) 3) 20" with Trijicon Iron Sights & Compact ACOG ("Traditional" Upper with a twist) Only One Lower needed......Priceless...
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:50:46 PM EDT
I'm with you on the shorter barrel, but why 1:7? I've got one and Personally 1:9 seems to be more accurate. Just an opine. I remember when 1:7 first came out on the Colt HBar. They also promised pinpoint accuracy with the cheekpiece and scope. Folks had mixed results. It's my understanding the military had mixed results with the 1:7 twist also. I'd like to hear your input on this. I see a lot of 1:9 AND a lot of 1:7 twists for sale.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:56:06 PM EDT
I know that carbines come with 14.5" barrels. However, this is illegal, right? It must have a suppressor or brake to make it a legal length of 16".
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 9:01:07 PM EDT
I love the 14.5...I have two of them! BM Fluted H-Bar and a BM lightweight...Sure, they have permanantly attached muzzle brakes, but I still feel a bit of glee for having gotten around the 16" minimum law!!! Ha ha ha! I ain't gonna go haring off to some new fad.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 9:02:48 PM EDT
The 1/7 is for 77gr bullets, reports are they work better and fragment at longer range.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 10:20:19 PM EDT
16 more accurate? How do you figure... that extra inch and a half doesn't put anymore spin on the bullet. This is a widespread firearm mistake. Length of barrel does not improve accuracy...only velocity....not much at that. As an example... a 2 in 686 smith in a ransom rest is going to shoot the same as a 6 inch 686 smith in a ransom. That extra 4 inches does not make the gun more accurate...only makes it easy to shoot is accuratly. if you take two bushy barrels...one 14.5, one 24, and the twist is exactly the same....and the crown is exactly the same...and the ammo is exactly the same. They will shoot exactly the same groups. Anyay just my .02
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 10:59:41 PM EDT
Shorter barrels are more accurater due to internal vibrations, but increased muzzle blast harms accuracy. The Army has experimented with barrels down to 14 inches at up to 500 yards for scoped competition shooting.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 11:08:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 11:14:40 PM EDT
Switching from a 20" m16 to the 14.5" m4 took some getting used to (I barely qualified with 14.5 the first time out). After that it got easier and I shot just as good with the m4. It's easier to carry around. Does the minute(as far as I know) increase in velocity really make that much difference in a round travelling as fast as a 5.56? Maybe in competition. All I know is full auto is nice ot have. I hated the three round burst. If you didn't finish the burst and only say two rounds came out, the next "burst" was only one round. I could see that ruining someones day.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 2:55:05 AM EDT
A 14.5" 1/7 twist barrel using 75 or 77 grain ammo has better terminal results and a longer fragmenting range than a 16" 1/9 twist barrel using M193. With a 16" barrel you are toting 17.5" in close confines... no thanks. With a Gemtech Bilock I get a barrel exactly 16" long with a flash hider and I can add a suppressor too. I see no need for 18" barrels as standard or 16" midlengths. Instead I see a new barrel extension and bolt from KAC and a PRI fat boy gas tube in my rifles future. It will be more reilable than some heavy midlength conventional crap and far lighter while sacrificing nothing but what??... Iron sight radius? Thats just for back up anyway. The midlength will not take off unless the military adopts it. Since the 14.5" barrel is so effective with the new ammo out there and the new upgraded extension and bolt thats coming I just dont see why they would even give a second thought to midlength rifles. I sure wont.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 3:45:57 AM EDT
could you tell me more about the upgrade plz.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 6:14:42 AM EDT
IMO, the only problem with the 14.5 is the 200 dollar tax stamp to own it legally as a citizen. :) Alex
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 6:27:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Alex_F: IMO, the only problem with the 14.5 is the 200 dollar tax stamp to own it legally as a citizen. :) Alex
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Alex, Most of the 14.5" barrels you see for sale will have a flash hider or muzzle break that is at least 1.5" permanently attached to bring it to the legal 16" length, which means you do not need the tax stamp. You still get the shorter overall length, as a 16" barrel will have a similar FH/MB in addition to the 16", making your carbine barrel closer to 17.5".
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 6:46:14 AM EDT
It's funny in the late 80's i got a A2(new at the time). Now you have all these choices,what a great time to be in the military. Friends of mine who are in special operation units are telling me that broken 14.5" are being replaced with 16" some even getting 20". A Ranger that I served with says he hasn't seen anything other than a 55 gr bullet since he's been in Iraq. He laughs at the stories of Afgan and Iraqis taking 6 or more hits to go down he said that's greatly over-stated. His only complaint is that the smaller barrels are louder than the 20" barrels.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 7:12:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mikepenn33: It's funny in the late 80's i got a A2(new at the time). Now you have all these choices,what a great time to be in the military. Friends of mine who are in special operation units are telling me that broken 14.5" are being replaced with 16" some even getting 20". A Ranger that I served with says he hasn't seen anything other than a 55 gr bullet since he's been in Iraq. He laughs at the stories of Afgan and Iraqis taking 6 or more hits to go down he said that's greatly over-stated. His only complaint is that the smaller barrels are louder than the 20" barrels.
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Interesting that goes against everything I have heard about. To my knowledge there are no 16" barrels and no M193 in Iraq or A-stan. Could you provide us with some kind of contact info for your friend? Im sure we would all like to send a care package and send him some letters from supportive civilians back home.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 7:33:49 AM EDT
I won't talk to him until next month,I'll ask him if it's ok to give his address. One more thing he said the 55 gr was not m193 but he was sure it was 55gr.And that he was never going to the beach again because he hated sand now.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 7:42:44 AM EDT
Anyone else with friends, family or self in the military. What do you hear about weapons and ammo. I know from personal experiance (and friends) that the Army doesn't really have a method for "who gets what" and the only thing standard is duct tape. I would like to hear what the marines have say
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 7:44:44 AM EDT
DevL, please clue us in on the benefits of a "new barrel extension and bolt from KAC."
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 7:49:45 AM EDT
me too, always good to hear about new products
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 9:11:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Feedingcannibal:
Originally Posted By Alex_F: IMO, the only problem with the 14.5 is the 200 dollar tax stamp to own it legally as a citizen. :) Alex
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Alex, Most of the 14.5" barrels you see for sale will have a flash hider or muzzle break that is at least 1.5" permanently attached to bring it to the legal 16" length, which means you do not need the tax stamp. You still get the shorter overall length, as a 16" barrel will have a similar FH/MB in addition to the 16", making your carbine barrel closer to 17.5".
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I know. :) I'm not talking about 16" barrels that have 1.5" attachments, I'm talking about real 14.5s with no extra length. I was mainly making a joke... [;)] Alex
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 9:40:43 AM EDT
Knights Armament is coming out with a new improved bolt with two extractor springs and the edges of the bolts are rounded off. It will increase extractor strength and durability and prevent the lug fatigue present in current M4s. A special barrel extension is needed to match the lugs and it will come together. Just remove the barrel, screw on a new extension and swap bolts. This will probably debut with the KAC URX fore end and spring loaded folding front sight KAC will be releasing as a complete upper then sold as seperate parts too to civilians later. This has all been discussed before on this forum and I am just repeating what those who have talked with Knights or work for Knights have said. I have no first ahnd knowledge here and dont pretend to. Search past posts in the forum and you will get detailed info. I even heard a rumor that the new bolt will be hard chromed too. I have been saying that a proper hard chroming is a good thing for a long time contrary to what the dogma of most here and the Maryland AR15 site states.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 1:27:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: I have been saying that a proper hard chroming is a good thing for a long time contrary to what the dogma of most here and the Maryland AR15 site states.
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The problem is finding a place that does 'Proper Hard Chroming' (and DPMS isn't the place). Done inproperly it results in brittle bolts that have a tendancy to break. Done properly I'd have no problem with a chromed Bolt - but until such a beast is built I'll stick with my standard bolt. I'm sure KAC will do it right, but it [i]will[/i] cost a pretty penny.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 1:55:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2003 2:16:27 PM EDT by Gunzilla]
Hummm... I would think that with the amount of machine work the bolt requires, the type of steel used, the hardness required and the cathodic state of the part -- Hard Chrome plating does not offer enough advantages to outweigh the threats of HE and cracking? The part could be relieved prior to plating and of course HE relief bathed... but this just adds further to the cost and I have to question why? HC is primarily a corrosion resisitant treatment... there are far more lubricious and wear resistant platings available, but I have not seen many problems with bolts "wearing", vice cracking? Given the small subsrate, its shape and hardness... it seems that HC is more of a detrement than anything? Of course, chrome looks damn sexy... Edited to add: HE = hydrogen embrittlement
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 8:45:32 PM EDT
[b]Originaly posted by DevL "I see a new barrel extension and bolt from KAC and a PRI fat boy gas tube in my rifles future."[/b] DevL, I'd think twice about the fat boy. I tried one, thinking it would tame the carbine pressure spike and aid in extration. Instead it turned my busmaster into a short stroking machine. Even with Xm193. After removing the fat boy and adding a SAW Heavy duty extractor spring it's 100% reliable with XM193. I've read where others have had the same problem. However, if you still want to try one I'll sell you mine. IM me.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 6:59:53 AM EDT
Call me old fashioned and maybe retro, but my primary AR nowadays has a 20" new out of the wrapper milsurp lighweight Colt M16A1 chrome lined barrel with a 1:12 twist and a military 5.56mm chamber. With 55gr ammo it is a tack driver. Most of the 5.56mm ammo in the civilian world is 55gr. First person I ever saw shot with a rifle was shot with an M16A1 using M193 55gr ammo. It was a pretty ugly sight what just one round could do.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 8:58:03 AM EDT
You know.. up close it probably doesn't matter what twist you use in your rifle. Accuracy doesn't mean much at 10-20 feet.. actually, I would prefer a strange twist to destabilize the bullet.. ripsaw effect (or so it makes sense in my head)
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 10:00:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Not_A_Llama: actually, I would prefer a strange twist to destabilize the bullet.. ripsaw effect (or so it makes sense in my head)
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Nasty surface wound - but it may not penetrate deep enough.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 10:11:02 AM EDT
I've noticed that with the 1:12 twist bore, the rifle is also very accurate when using the .22LR Ceiner kit (native .22LR rifling is usually 1:16).
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 11:34:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 4:33:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MarineSniper8541: How many of you out there do live fire room clearing with your ARs?
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I do. Give me the 14.5"
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