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Posted: 5/4/2004 8:22:02 AM EST
I was looking at the PRE BAN uppers on the bushmaster web site and for 14.5" Preban models it shows a pic of the upper w/ an A2 FS on the end and says it is NFA. When they say 14.5" on their site are they including the FS? Do thye not include the FS b/c it is not permanently attached? Basically I'm looking for a 14.5" preban upper with an A2 FS that brings it to 16", I would permanently attach the FS to make it legal... does this make sense?
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 8:28:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/4/2004 8:29:53 AM EST by mr_wilson]
The standard M4 14.5 barreled rifle has an A2 FS "screwed" on and will not make the 16" legal length.

However you can "permanently" mount one of Kurt's Kustoms A2 type longer FS/Brakes and meet the required length requirement, and be LEGAL.

Mike

added: there are other FS and brakes like the Phantom that will do the same, but whatever ya mount must be pinned and welded on.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 8:37:09 AM EST
Is there a place where I can order a 14.5" bushmaster upper that will weld the proper FS on to make the thing 16". Obviously I can't order a 14.5" and do it myself cuz they won't sell it to me.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 8:41:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/4/2004 8:47:41 AM EST by Hawkeye]

Originally Posted By aakast42:
Is there a place where I can order a 14.5" bushmaster upper that will weld the proper FS on to make the thing 16". Obviously I can't order a 14.5" and do it myself cuz they won't sell it to me.



Yes they will. There is nothing preventing you from buying a 14.5 inch upper from Bushmaster. Done it myself. You just cant put it on your lower.
You just need to permanantly attach either one of Kurts A3 flash supressors, a Votrex, or a Phantom. You can order it straight from Bushmaster with a Phantom already fixed on it as well. There may be others, but thats the 3 best in my opinion.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 8:45:45 AM EST
Is there a place that would perm attach it for me? I have no equipment/experience welding and what not.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 8:48:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By aakast42:
Is there a place that would perm attach it for me? I have no equipment/experience welding and what not.



You can order it from BM with a Phantom already premanantly installed.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 8:48:59 AM EST
ADCO, Legal Tranfers, CMMG, C4Grant and others would be happy to do it for ya, and I'm sure there's others, just check out the Industry or EE forums.

Actually CMMG has 14.5" uppers + Phantoms for sale right now on his site, chk it out.

If avoiding an "intent" charge is apart of your program.

Mike
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 8:50:46 AM EST
Intent.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 8:59:31 AM EST
intent charge?
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:12:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/4/2004 9:15:50 AM EST by Hawkeye]

Originally Posted By aakast42:
intent charge?



Some folks dont like to have something like a short barrel in their posession unless they have a registered SBR, or say a collapsable stock sitting in the closet waiting for Sept to get here, and not owning a preban, thinking they will get charged with intent to construct an illegal weapon. I've bought 14.5 inch uppers from Bustmaster before, and ATF never showed up at my house. I also sell stuff like Vltor stocks, and I do it from my home office. That means I have collapsable stocks in my house, and all post ban rifles. Still no ATF.

No one has yet showed me an incident where it has happened.
Its like trying to prove that a man will rape a woman, simply because he is heterosexual and has all the right equipment, even though he hasnt actually done it yet. Or that a woman is a prostitute, simply because she has all the necessary equipment to be one.

Short barrel = legal
Short barreled rifle = illegal (unless properly registered.)

A short barrel alone is not a short barreled rifle, unless its actually attached to a lower receiver as an entire rifle.

Mind you, its a personal choice, and one that is a perfectly fine choice to make (to not have such items in your possession). However, there is nothing illegal about having a short barrel, etc., in your possesion.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:30:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/4/2004 9:32:27 AM EST by otto_esq]

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
No one has yet showed me an incident where it has happened.
...
A short barrel alone is not a short barreled rifle, unless its actually attached to a lower receiver as an entire rifle.




The judges in the 11th Circuit would strongly disagree with you on the second point.

As for the first point, for a case where it happened, see United States v. Kent , 175 F.3d 870 (1999)

The case is discussed on the following threads:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=235830&page=1
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=237054&page=1

Yes there is a legal fiction about "assault weapon" parts, defined in 18 USC 921 et al. and constructive intent, but there is a major difference with NFA parts under 26 USC 5845, as discussed in Kent, above.

Cheers, Otto

(Fixed the board code)
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:47:57 AM EST
Well, thats the first case I have actually seen. Thanks for the link. I still say your ok in buying it.

Maybe I'm (and about 4k others) just extra lucky. I think that one could fight such a charge. Proving that you "can" do something, is much different that proving you "did" something. Color me not convinced......yet.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 10:18:46 AM EST
In an effort to convince you:

The horror of the statute is that they don't have to prove that you did ever assemble the short barreled upper to a non-NFA lower. They only have to prove that you have no other legitimate use for the upper but for making an SBR, in conformity with the US Supreme Court case of US v Thompson/ Center , 504 U.S. 505 (1988).

"While there is no direct evidence that Kent had assembled the rifle using the short-barreled upper receiver unit before, there was sufficient evidence, as outlined above, that Kent did not have the short-barreled upper receiver unit for parts, but for use with the lower receiver unit, which would constitute possession of a "firearm" required to be registered under § 5861(d) of the NFA."
US v Kent, 175 F.3d 870 at 878. (emphasis added)

Also, I really should clarify an earlier point:

"Short barrel = legal" is in itself, as just a barrel, ok, but a barreled upper receiver was specifically discussed in Kent:
"The Government introduced a videotaped demonstration which showed that it took only about thirty seconds to remove an AR-15 upper receiver unit from a lower receiver unit and install the short-barreled upper receiver unit in its place. The Government also introduced evidence that the upper receiver unit was a complete, intact unit that included not just a barrel, but also a flash suppressor, forward and rear sights, a scope with batteries to activate the light in the scope, a gas tube, a handguard assembly, and a sling ready to be attached to a lower receiver unit."
US v Kent, 175 F.3d 870 at 877.

From this, it can be argued that if you want to mount a muzzle device yourself on a new, sub-16 inch barrel, get just the barrel, make it permanently 16 inches or longer and then mount it to the upper receiver. Then, at no time is an SBR possible to be "made" in less than a minute.

Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 10:46:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 11:33:57 AM EST
One more question, I would probably get the upper with an m4 handguard. I just don't have the funds for an expensive rail system yet. Later on would I be able to remove the m4 handguard later on and replace it with a quad rail of some type? Is the handguard more than one piece or does it have to slip over the end of the barrel? I'd have an A2 tower style front site, don't know if that would prevent removal.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:08:50 AM EST
The front sight base doesn't necessarily prevent installation - it just adds another step that may or may not be more that you want to have to do.

The rail systems come in all shapes and sizes, so some are 2-piece units that simply replace the existing handguards, and others are rail systems that mount to the upper receiver as well and may or may not be 2 pieces, and may require removing temporarily the front sight base; while a third style can be grouped together as free float tubes that also replace the barrel nut, so not only do you need to remove the front sight base but you have to remount the barrel to the receiver. That was all one sentence. Sorry.

"Quad rails of some type," depending on the purpose, can be as cheap as the First Samco handguard preplacements or the Olympic FIRSH free float tubes on up to the really big bucks. I've seen rails that, although they are really nice I'm sure, cost more that the rifle I'd put it on.

Have fun shopping,
Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:35:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 12:29:38 PM EST
Don't forget, all of the one-piece tube type handguards (FIRSH, FF RAS, DD) will require removal of the front sight base, which means removal of the flash hider. If the FH is permanently attached... well, you get the idea...
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 2:07:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By aakast42:
When they say 14.5" on their site are they including the FS? Do thye not include the FS b/c it is not permanently attached?



Lots of good advice but I don't think anyone answered this first question. I've been curious about this as well.

Is a 14.5" barrel with a removeable A2 FS actually 15.5" overall? I'm assuming that's the case based on the dimensions of the FS's that I've seen and the length of the thread protector on my barrel. It seem there would be about 1" overhang from the FS. Is this correct?
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 3:25:54 PM EST
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