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Posted: 1/5/2006 10:44:40 PM EDT
Can one use a regular Smith Vortex on a 12.5" barrel, or is the flash and concussion too strong...like the 10.5"? I am building a new upper and am between a 12.5"+vortex vs 10.5"+KX3 vs 12.5"+KX3. The KX3 is so long that it only turns out to be a fraction of an inch shorter than a 12.5"+vortex. Thanks for your help.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 10:51:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 11:37:24 PM EDT
A 12.5" w/ A2 isn't as bad as a CQBR, but it is noticably worse than an M4. I know, kind of the answer you were expecting... With a KX3, the blast from a 10.5" is pretty mild, even compared to a 16" gun.

I'd personally use the 12.5" with the KX3. It extends the frag range of the rifle and the blast isn't as obnoxious to the rest of your crew. The rifle is still short and handy enough to use from a vehicle or in a mobile home, and is nowhere near as violently... Obnoxious. That's the only word I can think of to describe a sub-M4 5.56 in cramped quarters.

But then again, I'm one of the faux-gucci girls that digs accessories that perform useful tasks.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:37:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch:
A 12.5" w/ A2 isn't as bad as a CQBR, but it is noticably worse than an M4. I know, kind of the answer you were expecting... With a KX3, the blast from a 10.5" is pretty mild, even compared to a 16" gun.

I'd personally use the 12.5" with the KX3. It extends the frag range of the rifle and the blast isn't as obnoxious to the rest of your crew. The rifle is still short and handy enough to use from a vehicle or in a mobile home, and is nowhere near as violently... Obnoxious. That's the only word I can think of to describe a sub-M4 5.56 in cramped quarters.

But then again, I'm one of the faux-gucci girls that digs accessories that perform useful tasks.



well said... curious why you don't just go to a can or moderator? A Reflex can is actually shorter than the C3PO thing, weighs about the same (but puts the weight furhter back and actually moderates in the double digits... seems it would be a much better choice?
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:57:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 9:04:01 AM EDT by DevL]

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch:
A 12.5" w/ A2 isn't as bad as a CQBR, but it is noticably worse than an M4. I know, kind of the answer you were expecting... With a KX3, the blast from a 10.5" is pretty mild, even compared to a 16" gun.

I'd personally use the 12.5" with the KX3. It extends the frag range of the rifle and the blast isn't as obnoxious to the rest of your crew. The rifle is still short and handy enough to use from a vehicle or in a mobile home, and is nowhere near as violently... Obnoxious. That's the only word I can think of to describe a sub-M4 5.56 in cramped quarters.

But then again, I'm one of the faux-gucci girls that digs accessories that perform useful tasks.



well said... curious why you don't just go to a can or moderator? A Reflex can is actually shorter than the C3PO thing, weighs about the same (but puts the weight furhter back and actually moderates in the double digits... seems it would be a much better choice?



Reflex syled back over the barrel cans currently available that fit short barrels are RD Systems at $900 and the $1200 Surefire. Both require 11.5" barrels and SPR gas blocks for minimum length. The RD weighs 21oz and gives better sound suppression than the 17oz Surefire. Both are the same length when the suppressor is installed adding 3.75" to the barrel length. Surefire uses an integrated A2 and RD allos the use of A2, Phantom or Vortex. RD Systems or Surefire is longer, heavier and WAY more expensive than KX3. Not really intended for the same things as the KX3 does not reduce sound but redirect it, is shorter lighter and less expensive. The KX3 is 7.2oz and the older KFH are 8.8 oz for comparrison.

I know Capn_Crunch has ordered a Surefire suppressor and I have ordered an RD Systems suppresor and hopefully we will get to shoot em side by side by Spring Break but they are not really an alternative to the Noveske KX3 in that they are REAL suppressors with the associated drawbacks.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:04:52 AM EDT
Not to hijack or anything... Who makes a 12.5" barrel? I've always thought that would be a good length, but I've never seen one. Custom job???
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:16:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch:
A 12.5" w/ A2 isn't as bad as a CQBR, but it is noticably worse than an M4. I know, kind of the answer you were expecting... With a KX3, the blast from a 10.5" is pretty mild, even compared to a 16" gun.

I'd personally use the 12.5" with the KX3. It extends the frag range of the rifle and the blast isn't as obnoxious to the rest of your crew. The rifle is still short and handy enough to use from a vehicle or in a mobile home, and is nowhere near as violently... Obnoxious. That's the only word I can think of to describe a sub-M4 5.56 in cramped quarters.

But then again, I'm one of the faux-gucci girls that digs accessories that perform useful tasks.



well said... curious why you don't just go to a can or moderator? A Reflex can is actually shorter than the C3PO thing, weighs about the same (but puts the weight furhter back and actually moderates in the double digits... seems it would be a much better choice?



Reflex syled back over the barrel cans currently available that fit short barrels are RD Systems at $900 and the $1200 Surefire. Both require 11.5" barrels and SPR gas blocks for minimum length. The RD weighs 21oz and gives better sound suppression than the 17oz Surefire. Both are the same length when the suppressor is installed adding 3.75" to the barrel length. Surefire uses an integrated A2 and RD allos the use of A2, Phantom or Vortex. RD Systems or Surefire is longer, heavier and WAY more expensive than KX3. Not really intended for the same things as the KX3 does not reduce sound but redirect it, is shorter lighter and less expensive. The KX3 is 7.2oz and the older KFH are 8.8 oz for comparrison.

I know Capn_Crunch has ordered a Surefire suppressor and I have ordered an RD Systems suppresor and hopefully we will get to shoot em side by side by Spring Break but they are not really an alternative to the Noveske KX3 in that they are REAL suppressors with the associated drawbacks.



Great... but none of that is news, nor does it apply to my comment in which I did not say anything about *reflex style* cans -- and, just so you know, there are options that are just as I said: Shorter, effectively lighter and offer double digit dB moderation. I see no real "drawbacks" to something that is more effective, shorter, lighter... blah, blah, blah...
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 12:28:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 1:21:16 PM EDT by Capn_Crunch]

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch:
A 12.5" w/ A2 isn't as bad as a CQBR, but it is noticably worse than an M4. I know, kind of the answer you were expecting... With a KX3, the blast from a 10.5" is pretty mild, even compared to a 16" gun.

I'd personally use the 12.5" with the KX3. It extends the frag range of the rifle and the blast isn't as obnoxious to the rest of your crew. The rifle is still short and handy enough to use from a vehicle or in a mobile home, and is nowhere near as violently... Obnoxious. That's the only word I can think of to describe a sub-M4 5.56 in cramped quarters.

But then again, I'm one of the faux-gucci girls that digs accessories that perform useful tasks.



well said... curious why you don't just go to a can or moderator? A Reflex can is actually shorter than the C3PO thing, weighs about the same (but puts the weight furhter back and actually moderates in the double digits... seems it would be a much better choice?



Reflex syled back over the barrel cans currently available that fit short barrels are RD Systems at $900 and the $1200 Surefire. Both require 11.5" barrels and SPR gas blocks for minimum length. The RD weighs 21oz and gives better sound suppression than the 17oz Surefire. Both are the same length when the suppressor is installed adding 3.75" to the barrel length. Surefire uses an integrated A2 and RD allos the use of A2, Phantom or Vortex. RD Systems or Surefire is longer, heavier and WAY more expensive than KX3. Not really intended for the same things as the KX3 does not reduce sound but redirect it, is shorter lighter and less expensive. The KX3 is 7.2oz and the older KFH are 8.8 oz for comparrison.

I know Capn_Crunch has ordered a Surefire suppressor and I have ordered an RD Systems suppresor and hopefully we will get to shoot em side by side by Spring Break but they are not really an alternative to the Noveske KX3 in that they are REAL suppressors with the associated drawbacks.



Great... but none of that is news, nor does it apply to my comment in which I did not say anything about *reflex style* cans -- and, just so you know, there are options that are just as I said: Shorter, effectively lighter and offer double digit dB moderation. I see no real "drawbacks" to something that is more effective, shorter, lighter... blah, blah, blah...



Well, there are pros and cons to either setup...

Noveske KX3 Pros:

Inexpensive ($125)
Non-NFA (No $200 tax or wait)
9 oz lighter than the SF Can
Reasonably effective at redirecting blast

Noveske KX3 Cons:
Increases the length of the gun almost as much as the SF can
It IS 7 oz, and that's no lightweight muzzle device.

Surefire FA556A Pros:
Good suppression (at least as much as an M4-02, or a KAC M4QD)
Super lightweight for a suppressor (16-ish oz)
Durable as hell
Adds less than 4" to the OAL of the weapon
Negligible POI shift when installed or removed

Surefire FA556A Cons:
Expensive ($1050)
NFA Item ($200 tax plus the wait)

So yeah, the KX3 is a better device in some situations, and the Surefire can is better in situations where you can actually acquire/use a suppressor. The main being one of the current situations where barrel length is unrestricted, but due to export/import laws you can't get a can without a ton of hassle...

Edited to add:

I'm not trying to sway anyone one way or the other. The KX3 does have its place in the large scheme of things, however.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 2:44:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch:
A 12.5" w/ A2 isn't as bad as a CQBR, but it is noticably worse than an M4. I know, kind of the answer you were expecting... With a KX3, the blast from a 10.5" is pretty mild, even compared to a 16" gun.

I'd personally use the 12.5" with the KX3. It extends the frag range of the rifle and the blast isn't as obnoxious to the rest of your crew. The rifle is still short and handy enough to use from a vehicle or in a mobile home, and is nowhere near as violently... Obnoxious. That's the only word I can think of to describe a sub-M4 5.56 in cramped quarters.

But then again, I'm one of the faux-gucci girls that digs accessories that perform useful tasks.





well said... curious why you don't just go to a can or moderator? A Reflex can is actually shorter than the C3PO thing, weighs about the same (but puts the weight furhter back and actually moderates in the double digits... seems it would be a much better choice?



Reflex syled back over the barrel cans currently available that fit short barrels are RD Systems at $900 and the $1200 Surefire. Both require 11.5" barrels and SPR gas blocks for minimum length. The RD weighs 21oz and gives better sound suppression than the 17oz Surefire. Both are the same length when the suppressor is installed adding 3.75" to the barrel length. Surefire uses an integrated A2 and RD allos the use of A2, Phantom or Vortex. RD Systems or Surefire is longer, heavier and WAY more expensive than KX3. Not really intended for the same things as the KX3 does not reduce sound but redirect it, is shorter lighter and less expensive. The KX3 is 7.2oz and the older KFH are 8.8 oz for comparrison.

I know Capn_Crunch has ordered a Surefire suppressor and I have ordered an RD Systems suppresor and hopefully we will get to shoot em side by side by Spring Break but they are not really an alternative to the Noveske KX3 in that they are REAL suppressors with the associated drawbacks.



Great... but none of that is news, nor does it apply to my comment in which I did not say anything about *reflex style* cans -- and, just so you know, there are options that are just as I said: Shorter, effectively lighter and offer double digit dB moderation. I see no real "drawbacks" to something that is more effective, shorter, lighter... blah, blah, blah...



Please tell me of these options. If I can buy one I want it and I guess I dont know about it. Why didnt you present info on the options in your post instead of hinting at a product we are not familiar with?
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 3:03:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 3:06:13 PM EDT by SBR7_11]

Originally Posted By efpeter:
Not to hijack or anything... Who makes a 12.5" barrel? I've always thought that would be a good length, but I've never seen one. Custom job???




Cut it from a 16" .. I had a DPMS SS Bull cut to 12" about 4yr ago, still have it. Never really used it for anything.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 3:47:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:
blah, blah, blah...



Please tell me of these options. If I can buy one I want it and I guess I dont know about it. Why didnt you present info on the options in your post instead of hinting at a product we are not familiar with?



As a freeloader to the site, I try to simply provide information; but, at that, I don't often openly promote things that I am somehow involved with... just seems tacky.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:05:47 PM EDT
Will a can on a 10.5" be almost as affective as on a 12.5"? Is the blowback on the 10.5" much worse than on the 12.5"?
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:42:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 6:56:58 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch:
A 12.5" w/ A2 isn't as bad as a CQBR, but it is noticably worse than an M4. I know, kind of the answer you were expecting... With a KX3, the blast from a 10.5" is pretty mild, even compared to a 16" gun.

I'd personally use the 12.5" with the KX3. It extends the frag range of the rifle and the blast isn't as obnoxious to the rest of your crew. The rifle is still short and handy enough to use from a vehicle or in a mobile home, and is nowhere near as violently... Obnoxious. That's the only word I can think of to describe a sub-M4 5.56 in cramped quarters.

But then again, I'm one of the faux-gucci girls that digs accessories that perform useful tasks.



well said... curious why you don't just go to a can or moderator? A Reflex can is actually shorter than the C3PO thing, weighs about the same (but puts the weight furhter back and actually moderates in the double digits... seems it would be a much better choice?



How about cost, NFA permit, and actual need?

The Krink does everything I need it to do (Reduce shooter perceived blast & noise). I have absolutely zero need for a 5.56mm silencer. In my experience shooting a can with standard 5.56mm ammo stills sounds exactly like a gun being fired. Hearing protection is still a must. Yes, it is quieter but not enough to warrant the added cost & hassle. Maybe to a shooter with subsonic ammo it's a different ball game, but I have not had that opportunity. Nor would I like to purchase large amounts of subsonic ammo just to get silencers full benefit. This probably isn't news to you but it's not the tiny "Zip" you hear in the movies. The Krink provides all I need with far less hassle & cost.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:30:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 5:31:44 PM EDT by Gunzilla]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch:
A 12.5" w/ A2 isn't as bad as a CQBR, but it is noticably worse than an M4. I know, kind of the answer you were expecting... With a KX3, the blast from a 10.5" is pretty mild, even compared to a 16" gun.

I'd personally use the 12.5" with the KX3. It extends the frag range of the rifle and the blast isn't as obnoxious to the rest of your crew. The rifle is still short and handy enough to use from a vehicle or in a mobile home, and is nowhere near as violently... Obnoxious. That's the only word I can think of to describe a sub-M4 5.56 in cramped quarters.

But then again, I'm one of the faux-gucci girls that digs accessories that perform useful tasks.



well said... curious why you don't just go to a can or moderator? A Reflex can is actually shorter than the C3PO thing, weighs about the same (but puts the weight furhter back and actually moderates in the double digits... seems it would be a much better choice?



How about cost, NFA permit, and need.

The Krink does everything I need it to do (Reduce shooter perceived blast & noise). I have absolutely zero need for a 5.56mm silencer. In my experience shooting a can with standard 5.56mm ammo stills sounds exactly like a gun being fired. Hearing protection is still a must. Yes, it is quieter but not enough to warrant the added cost & hassle. Maybe to a shooter with subsonic ammo it's a different ball game, but I have not had that opportunity. Nor would I like to purchase large amounts of subsonic ammo just to get silencers full benefit. This probably isn't news to you but it's not the tiny "Zip" you hear in the movies. The Krink provides all I need with far less hassle & cost.



Yes... I have already talked to Capn offline on this, I mistook what he was saying to be that as a door kicker, he would opt for the KX3 and I was just curious as to why -- some people don't have to worry about permit taxes and that stuff, the cost of what people pay for things is another story all-together!

I got a pretty good clue as to how the rifle sounds with a can, but I will tell you that we did a small run for a group of guys (a dedicated system, rifle and cartridge) that was very quiet... the firing pin strike was about the only way you knew it had fired... really. But, if you have ever shot in a confined space, you know that the short barreled guns can be debilitating, so a moderator is a godsend in this case - naturally some type of hearing protection is still needed, but nose bleeds are eliminated
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:47:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:
But, if you have ever shot in a confined space, you know that the short barreled guns can be debilitating, so a moderator is a godsend in this case - naturally some type of hearing protection is still needed, but nose bleeds are eliminated



Shooting the CQBR is pretty bad when it comes to blast/concussion/report, but I think it's even worse when someone next to you touches off a round.

I never got a nosebleed, but for some reason my face always felt numb afterwards. Kinda like when you have dental surgery done...
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 6:01:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch:

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:
But, if you have ever shot in a confined space, you know that the short barreled guns can be debilitating, so a moderator is a godsend in this case - naturally some type of hearing protection is still needed, but nose bleeds are eliminated



Shooting the CQBR is pretty bad when it comes to blast/concussion/report, but I think it's even worse when someone next to you touches off a round.

I never got a nosebleed, but for some reason my face always felt numb afterwards. Kinda like when you have dental surgery done...



Yes, it can be hard to trust that everyone is "on line"... actually, I have never gotten a nose bleed from small arms fire -- now, there was this one time that we set up a little "surprise" with a bunch of M110 simulators, just a little funning around you know... anyway, that was a pretty unpleasent little experience, complete with nose bleed.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 6:21:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SBR7_11:

Originally Posted By efpeter:
Not to hijack or anything... Who makes a 12.5" barrel? I've always thought that would be a good length, but I've never seen one. Custom job???




Cut it from a 16" .. I had a DPMS SS Bull cut to 12" about 4yr ago, still have it. Never really used it for anything.



John Noveske is making both barr. and soon to be complete uppers in 12.5.......got a 10.5 for a build and he friggin makes the 12.5 now I have to do a second upper................

http://www.noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/cart2/detail.cgi?item_id=125crusader
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 6:42:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:21:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch:
A 12.5" w/ A2 isn't as bad as a CQBR, but it is noticably worse than an M4. I know, kind of the answer you were expecting... With a KX3, the blast from a 10.5" is pretty mild, even compared to a 16" gun.

I'd personally use the 12.5" with the KX3. It extends the frag range of the rifle and the blast isn't as obnoxious to the rest of your crew. The rifle is still short and handy enough to use from a vehicle or in a mobile home, and is nowhere near as violently... Obnoxious. That's the only word I can think of to describe a sub-M4 5.56 in cramped quarters.

But then again, I'm one of the faux-gucci girls that digs accessories that perform useful tasks.



well said... curious why you don't just go to a can or moderator? A Reflex can is actually shorter than the C3PO thing, weighs about the same (but puts the weight furhter back and actually moderates in the double digits... seems it would be a much better choice?



How about cost, NFA permit, and actual need?

The Krink does everything I need it to do (Reduce shooter perceived blast & noise). I have absolutely zero need for a 5.56mm silencer. In my experience shooting a can with standard 5.56mm ammo stills sounds exactly like a gun being fired. Hearing protection is still a must. Yes, it is quieter but not enough to warrant the added cost & hassle. Maybe to a shooter with subsonic ammo it's a different ball game, but I have not had that opportunity. Nor would I like to purchase large amounts of subsonic ammo just to get silencers full benefit. This probably isn't news to you but it's not the tiny "Zip" you hear in the movies. The Krink provides all I need with far less hassle & cost.



so do swat team guys that do entry work wear those electronic ears? makes sense they would i guess. if thats the case, then a can would not really be nessisary unless your shooting right next to a guy, like next to his face.

oh BTW, i love my M4 2000 can on my 11.5" SBR. its the bomb for outdoor shooting. not that i would make a habit of shooting without ears on but in a life and death situation, its not a problem.
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