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11/24/2017 4:44:23 PM
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/15/2004 8:28:11 AM EST
I would like to build one for closer range work, and more of a toy then a defensive weapon... ( AR's arent meant for home intrusion anyway...lol)

I would like to hear from guys here that OWN a 11.5 AR. Please, no opinions on what is best for the armchair warrior SHTF scenarios... I looked at past threads, and people always loose control and get off track. Does your 11.5 hold decent groups, and if so how far? I doubt ever shooting with this rifle past 100 yrds. Also, I would like to use my suppresor on it. I machined it myself, ( yes I have tax stamp) and wondered if anyone is using a sound suppressor on their 11.5. Pics are always welcome... Remember guys... shooting is also fun... so please keep this thread that way ;)
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:43:04 AM EST
I have a Bushmaster 11.5 with a 5.5 FH. I really like it. Like you I realize that you need to keep the range realistic. Mine is a A3 with Leatherwood 1x50 Red Dot. Bushmaster flip up BUIS. Both the dot and the iron sights are sighted in for POA/POI at 50 yds. I took it to the range yesterday and consistently grouped 2 inches or less at 50 yds. from a kneeling position. At 100yds from kneeling I was shooting 4 inch groups. I can and it will do better from a rest or prone. So all in all it has all the accuracy that you would ever need. I have shot 3 shot groups from a rest at 50 yds. and placed 2 shots into one ragged hole, with the 3rd shot a half inch away. I don't have a suppressor so I can't comment on that. I think you would be happy with it given those guidelines. No it's not a 300 yd. setup, but for what it's designed for it will more than do the job. Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 12:20:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 12:22:42 PM EST by shamayim]
Built an XM177E2 clone on a Colt SP1 in 1978, and it's still my favorite AR. Well, I also class 3d it that year, so that might also have something to do w/it

With good handloads, it'll shoot into 1 1/2-2 inches at 100 yds. Winchester white box stuff is more like 2 1/2-3 1/2 inches. That'd be w/a Leupold 1 1/2-5 power scope. Used to be able to pretty much dup that w/the irons, but old age is catching up w/the eyes. For me at least, 200 yds is about the farthest I'd try to hit anything small w/it.


There's something about the XM177 profile barrel/suppressor that nothing else duplicates. Realistically a 14 1/2 carbine barrel w/a standard suppressor on it is the same length, w/better ballistics, but they just don't feel the same

My advice? If you want it, go for it. Just understand that you're going to give up some long range ability.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 12:29:20 PM EST
A friend has one with a 5.5 inch FH. Not really good for anything. Hes shot some small game with it and has only managed to kill squirrels. A fox, to rabbits and some other crap were shot and got away. Not really sure if it was really really really poor placement or ineffective terminal balistics but I could have taken all of those with a .22lr.

If its just for screwing around by all means do it. Might as well SBR it and make the supressor removable. Lots of fun. My buddies has the 5.5 inch FH which doesnt do a damn thing. It gets a 2 foot fireball with just about all ammo.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:10:34 PM EST
Best thing I ever did was build my SBR. Contrary to your original comment, it's the perfect weapon for home defense and my first choice, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

I can keep it on an 8" plate at 200M offhand with an Eotech.

It's super-handy and the ballistics are more than adequate for 50M and in. Even in my semi-rural area it's a rare space where I can even see more than 50M, and as a civilian defensive weapon it would seem to be unlikely that you would want to be shooting further than that. If they're that far away turn and get out of dodge!

Attached is a pic with it in "full gingerbread mode". The Eotech is on it normally, the CQT is now going on my FAL (a much better perimeter defense tool). Basically if the problem starts inside the house it's going to be the SBR. If it starts outside it's going to be the FAL.

The suppressor is a Coastal. Not the quietest, but still a great unit for the money. It really takes the bark out of it, when attached it sounds like shooting an unsuppressed .22. The extra weight and length make it handle like a heavy barrel 16" rifle. Normally I leave it unsuppressed because it really negates the whole point of having something that light and short.

For home defense if you want something lighter, handier and with more ready-rounds than a shotgun, it's going to be hard to beat a real SBR. Same if you need something to keep in the vehicle and space is at a premium. But if you aren't really going to go the real SBR route and are just going to add a big flash-hider I really wouldn't bother, just get the 16" barrel.

Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:55:04 PM EST
Zak, where you at?

I have a 11.5", can shoot 1 1/2 if I do my part with Hornady handloads, cheap scope. Most is done with blast ammo, can open sight it to 200yd, eyes getting fuzzy.

I use a "WARRIOR" suppressor on mine, but I like the 7.5" upper more, more cool factor, especially with the can on it.





Visit the Ohio forum, if you are in western part of the state, come join us for our informal shoots. If you have to drive farther, still come join us.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 7:18:10 PM EST
I have one.. I have it cause its FUN.. no other reason.. Thats the main reason I have guns..
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 7:23:10 PM EST
I would say go the SBR route if you are going to do it.

If you choose to permantly attach a 5.5, I would say get a 16".
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 7:25:03 PM EST
flash suppressors are not an option.... i have a sound suppressor... the whole 11.5 barrel and 5'' flash suppressor is kind of silly to me...
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:06:42 PM EST
is a cool factor

realistically: get a 16 in bbl mininmum

if you anly got 11.5 in bbl for a 5.56 round, then you are handicapped; might as well get a .45acp feed
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:37:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 11:41:53 PM EST by jjmcrowell]
I carry a 11.5", my dept has 14 m16/ar15 rifles with barrel lengths from 10.5" up to 16". It's one of the most accurate ones we have. At 200 yards I can hit a 12" steel plate all day long. The shorter rifles are very popular, alot more useful in buildings and in cars.

We had a little bit of trouble getting them to run at first. H buffers and wolfe extractor springs made the shorties 100%. I have had over 3000 rounds without a malfuntion.

Actually I don't think it's that much louder. Flash doesnt seem to be a problem, we use Hornady 55gr amax urban.

Link Posted: 10/16/2004 12:02:19 AM EST
Is my 10.5 ok? I'm an inch off what you're looking at, but this is the funnest upper I have, and everyone loves shooting it. I'm lucky too, since a lot of guys have reliability problems with this short a barrel, but mine runs like a raped ape. I just got the beta mag on her, and I'm going to do a few 100 round dumps tomorrow.





Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:36:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By zak2427:
flash suppressors are not an option.... i have a sound suppressor... the whole 11.5 barrel and 5'' flash suppressor is kind of silly to me...



Sounds like you aren't willing to go the true SBR route, tax stamp and all. Get the 16" then.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:50:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By aa777888-2:

Originally Posted By zak2427:
flash suppressors are not an option.... i have a sound suppressor... the whole 11.5 barrel and 5'' flash suppressor is kind of silly to me...



Sounds like you aren't willing to go the true SBR route, tax stamp and all. Get the 16" then.



So buying the 11.5'' barrel isnt a TRUE SBR??????????
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:51:56 AM EST
Maybe I misunderstood you, but not if you put a (permanent) 5.5" flash suppressor on it as it makes the total length of the "barrel" (in the eyes of the gov.) over 16" and therefore not a short barrelled rifle.

I may have been thrown off by your statement "flash suppressors are not an option". I'm not sure what you mean by this. A flash suppressor is pretty much mandatory for that short of a barrel in order to avoid the otherwise inevitable fireball. Pay your $200 tax stamp and put a "normal" size one on, like a Phantom or a Vortex.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:54:30 AM EST
I use a Bushmaster 11.5" barreled upper on my M16 and love it. To make it 100% reliable a heavy buffer and a colt extra power extractor spring was needed. At 225 yards it is more than capable of hitting a 10" steel plate with M193 spec ammunition.

I also own a Advanced Armament M4-2000 and use it on my 11.5" upper. With the suppressor in place the rifle sounds like an unsuppressed .22lr being fired.

An 11.5" upper is a lot of fun. My wife shoots this upper nearly exclusivly because of it's light weight and compact size, she enjoys shooting it more than any other AR15/M16 I own.

Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:50:22 AM EST
Where can i get a heavy buffer? And what do you think about the little O-ring for the extractor instead of the extra power spring?
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:55:16 AM EST
Zak,

If its just for fun than what ever tickles your fancy. I've got a CAR-15 with a 10.5" bbl with the 5.5 flash hinder and have always had a ball with it. Never did any real accuarcy work past 100m but it stay on e-type siluohetes. Never had a sound suppressor on it.

Have done alot of CQB work with the 14.5" M4A1 and have never had a problem with that length inside rooms. However inside vehicles is another story all together. We been testing some 10" bbls (1:7) but using M855 ball on acutal bad guys at 35m we had to shoot them 5 times each. No fragmentation with that combination. If you go with that short of bbl do look a lighter bullet and a slower twist.

CD
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 9:07:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 9:11:37 AM EST by Morpheus32]

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:

Have done alot of CQB work with the 14.5" M4A1 and have never had a problem with that length inside rooms. However inside vehicles is another story all together. We been testing some 10" bbls (1:7) but using M855 ball on acutal bad guys at 35m we had to shoot them 5 times each. No fragmentation with that combination. If you go with that short of bbl do look a lighter bullet and a slower twist.

CD



Alot of work has gone in the opposite direction ie heavier bullets vice lighter. The 77gr OTM has had some impressive results at CQB/Pers Def ranges. There are a number of discussions concerning the utility of the heavier round here on the board worth reading.

Jeff
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 9:44:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Morpheus32:

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:

Have done alot of CQB work with the 14.5" M4A1 and have never had a problem with that length inside rooms. However inside vehicles is another story all together. We been testing some 10" bbls (1:7) but using M855 ball on acutal bad guys at 35m we had to shoot them 5 times each. No fragmentation with that combination. If you go with that short of bbl do look a lighter bullet and a slower twist.

CD



Alot of work has gone in the opposite direction ie heavier bullets vice lighter. The 77gr OTM has had some impressive results at CQB/Pers Def ranges. There are a number of discussions concerning the utility of the heavier round here on the board worth reading.

Jeff



Well that all depends. If you plan on shooting FMJ and expecting fragmentation you want low weight high speed. If you want to shoot heavier frangible/HP/SP or other than FMJ rounds you have to rely on the ability of the bullet to have enough energy to do what its got to do. You have to pick which one of these extremes you're going to go for and build for it. A friend has a dealer sample galil with a 7.5 inch barrel with a 1:7 twist and he shoots 69 grain HPs. From the wet phone book test I'd think he'd rather have had a 1:12 barrel with 45 grain bullets.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 9:47:28 AM EST
Get a 14.5"
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 10:05:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By zak2427:
I would like to build one for closer range work, and more of a toy then a defensive weapon... ( AR's arent meant for home intrusion anyway...lol)

I would like to hear from guys here that OWN a 11.5 AR. Please, no opinions on what is best for the armchair warrior SHTF scenarios... I looked at past threads, and people always loose control and get off track. Does your 11.5 hold decent groups, and if so how far? I doubt ever shooting with this rifle past 100 yrds. Also, I would like to use my suppresor on it. I machined it myself, ( yes I have tax stamp) and wondered if anyone is using a sound suppressor on their 11.5. Pics are always welcome... Remember guys... shooting is also fun... so please keep this thread that way ;)




Well, I'm NOT an "Operator", I do NOT do LANO jumps into dangerous enemy territory. I drive a Honda and do regular stuff.

I just shoot my commando at the range on the weekends. I shoot for fun. the only thing that shivers when I walk on the firing line is the cardboard backstop

My commando is a Sporty AR15 lower with BM car stock and BM upper (Full profile HB, 1 in 9 twist). Standing, off hand, it gets maybe 2 inch groups at 50 yards with run of the mill el-cheepo Wolf blasing ammo, 55 grain total bullet weight. If I sit down and feed it some carefully handloaded 55 grain ammo, it'll do 1" + groups @ 50 yards. I don't really pay attention to 100 yards. I'm sure the groups will open up at that range, anyway.

I don't do the Benchrest thing because it's not a benchrest gun! It's a friggin' overgrown .22 with an 11 + inch barrel and so I set my expectations accordingly.

Hope this helps



Side View

Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:30:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:08:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By MP906:
I'm seriously considering a 10.5" barrel, maybe even 7.5".

They are just too handy, and supercool.

I think HP defensive loads coming at ya at 2000+ FPS would do alot more than "surface tissue damage" as some say.





7 inch barrels are great! The flash will blind you and the concussion blows your hair back and clears your sinuses!
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:46:38 PM EST
FWIW, i have had a 10.5 and a 11.5, and also a 7" in past years
i now have an upper with a 10.5, it will give "minute of 5lb sack of flour" at 75-100 yards
it's loud, ( i use a standard birdcage now)
it's fun
it will put out a hell of a fireball
blanks (for noise making, like firecrackers) will melt a gas tube
it looks neat, (just a plain upper, normal, not m4 handgaurds and no gizmos)
and it works
just be carefull of the type of flash hiders you use, i put an "ak" type on it once, the ones that vent gas to the sides,,,,,,,,,burnt the hair off my forearm,,,,, big fireballs out of each side
went back to the standard that nite
have fun
rc
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:00:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By MP906:
I'm seriously considering a 10.5" barrel, maybe even 7.5".

They are just too handy, and supercool.

I think HP defensive loads coming at ya at 2000+ FPS would do alot more than "surface tissue damage" as some say.





There is no question it underpenetrates in all but direct torso hits. mags in a chest rig, limbs in the way or anything else will not allow adequate penetration to vitals and thus incapacitation. If you are shooting surrendering people who are erect with hands in the air then you have the perfect round for murdering them if you use a ballistic tip like yu describe. Other than that the rounds will not penetrate to generally accepted standards from ANY LENGTH BARREL AT ANY SPEED. Why dont you do some testing to prove your hypothesis and prove your "more than surface tissue dmage" instead of day dreaming about what might happen while ignoring the FACTS AND RESEARH of wound ballistics.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:24:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By Gunbert:
Is my 10.5 ok? I'm an inch off what you're looking at, but this is the funnest upper I have, and everyone loves shooting it. I'm lucky too, since a lot of guys have reliability problems with this short a barrel, but mine runs like a raped ape. I just got the beta mag on her, and I'm going to do a few 100 round dumps tomorrow.


photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=29925

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=31081



aww, it's so cute!
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:05:58 PM EST
Has anybody built an SBR that they keep a suppressor attached (keeping the total barrel length under 12 inches)? As in putting a 4-5 inch suppressor on a SBR with a 7 inch barrel.

I'm only 19 now, but when I turn 21 I want to look into this further. Quick question, I know you have to buy that 200$ tax, but once you have it can you build a SBR and put a silencer on without any trouble, or do you have to pay a 200 dollar tax for both the SBR and the silencer? Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 10:24:05 PM EST
Seperate taxes even if the silencer is integral to the barrel.

PS: Your rifle will be useless for anything other than a toy or squirel hunting.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:08:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By JeffersonS:
Has anybody built an SBR that they keep a suppressor attached (keeping the total barrel length under 12 inches)? As in putting a 4-5 inch suppressor on a SBR with a 7 inch barrel.

I'm only 19 now, but when I turn 21 I want to look into this further. Quick question, I know you have to buy that 200$ tax, but once you have it can you build a SBR and put a silencer on without any trouble, or do you have to pay a 200 dollar tax for both the SBR and the silencer? Thanks.




Not sure why your want, or where youd get a suppressor that small. I machined my own, and it works almost as good as our dept issued gemtech's. It's a tad louder, but I dont get nearly the backpressure. I was going toopen the end cap up a few thousandths, to increase the release, and basically just want to knock down the sound, and flash when using the 11.5 upper. I might pin and tack it to the barrel to save an extra tax stamp.

This gun will be for my personal range shooter. I have dept issued weapons for real life stuff...
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