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Posted: 8/7/2003 8:45:23 PM EDT
Is too much velocity lost for 55 gr FMJ to be effective? Would you use one for home defense? Thoughts please. Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 9:46:49 PM EDT
You will lose about 400fps with the 10.5" bbl..Ive got a 10.5" on one of my ARs.. Sounds like a damn cannon.. but is a blast to shoot.. Not a huge velocity loss. Everyone has their own opinion on stopping power, but I wouldnt want to be on the business end of it.. John
Link Posted: 8/8/2003 12:08:22 AM EDT
You’re welcome to stand in front and tell me if it hurts… An ARF with a 10.5 inch barrel is certainly no match rifle but it would make for a fearsome CQB type weapon. It’d probably make a good home defense weapon; muzzle flash is going to be an issue as well as noise. You’d probably make the neighbors wet their bed if you ever had to use it. Best regards, J
Link Posted: 8/8/2003 5:56:10 AM EDT
Deuce01: Do you really want to use such a weapon in this PC climate as a home defense weapon? If you shot an intruder with that 10.5" BM and, God forbids, that somehow you ended up in court, the appearance of the weapon may get you in trouble with the PC jury. The 5.56mm projectile stops disintegrating at 2400 fps. Below that velocity, the projectile will only yaw. If you insist on using the BM with 10.5" barrel for close range engagement, your velocity would only be about 2600 fps with commercial ammunition. With that velocity, the projectile will only disintegrate into two pieces below the cannelure, and the tip will yaw. It will still do considerable amount of damage, but a .45, 9mm, or .357 HPs can do just as much damage. What kind of muzzle attachment are we talking about here? AK type muzzle break or suppressor? Man, if you shoot that thing in door, you may suffer blown ear drums. What do you have against the good ole' shotgun? Too be honest with you, shooting any center fire rifle indoor without hearing protection is asking for trouble, so why don't you just use a shotgun just incase you need to appease a PC prosecutor. Just my $.02. Have fun!
Link Posted: 8/8/2003 8:09:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2003 8:14:12 AM EDT by Horik]
Velocity loss is fairly dramatic BUT only in distance shots where this weapon is less likely to be used. Home defense? GREAT IMHO! Loud as *&^% but fun! Get a 1/7 twist bbl. and use the heavier loads for home defense. Like the 75-77 grain from Black Hills. Within home confines and home perimeter you will have plenty of velocity. Around 30+ meteres at the very least. Plus the bad guy will probably load his pants at the sound alone[naughty] edited to add: the heavier gr. loads fragment below 2400fps! Some think down to 2100 or maybe less.
Link Posted: 8/8/2003 8:12:31 AM EDT
Are you going to have a 5.5" brake or flash suppressor on it to make it a legal 16", or have it registered as a SBR? If you are going 16", don't give up the velocity for perceived looks.
Link Posted: 8/8/2003 9:12:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JTR8541: You’d probably make the neighbors wet their bed if you ever had to use it.
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Most of my PRK neighbors would wet their pants just seeing it. One idiot household on my street not only forbids their little kids to play with toy guns, but even forbids SAYING the word "gun"! [whacko]
Link Posted: 8/9/2003 6:54:31 PM EDT
Second, Thats the information I was looking for, terminal effectiveness with reduced velocity due to short barrell. Thanks. Horik, Thanks for tip on ammo. It is 1/7 twist. Fight4, It has a 5.5" flash hider permanently attached by BM. All, Thanks for your comments. Good to hear all your views. D01
Link Posted: 8/9/2003 7:04:44 PM EDT
Horik- (others welcome of course) same setup, but 1/9" w/ the 68/69 grain Black Hills? What do ya' think, really just being cheap, I know not as good but w/ close in range, worth the $$$ for the BH stuff or 3131A/193 just as good, or noticeable diff. in term ball.? Thanks in advance, I know the theory, should hold, go BH. But, is there anything I'm missing?
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 1:49:41 PM EDT
What are you thinking of? Are you only going to shoot some low life home invader once? Dump at least 10 rounds in the guy's center of mass. I mean, you don't want this guy to live, be disabled, and then sue you, right? So shoot to "over-kill". And if you doubt the effectiveness of your short barrel and ammunition, what do you think the other 18 rounds in a 30-round mag are for? However, most important is practicing with what ever you got until you do it "second nature." And if you expect to shoot inside a house, find a house to practice in, especially at night; or find a substitute range and "accessorize" it to emulate your real life potential shooting environment.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 2:11:13 PM EDT
And while you are at it get a good lawyer because even if you are justified in killing someone to defend your life "overkill" can be proven in court as excessive use of force and even if your in the right they might be able to prove your a person who shouldnt have a weapon and need to have your head checked,at close range you wont need 10 shots you shoot till the target falls and is no longer a threat,2 maybe 3 shots thats why I use a shotgun for home protection 1 shot 9 projectiles or better yet bird shot,excelent for close range without the worry that it will go through your walls and hit inocent people not a concern if you live rural but a consideration if people live nextdoor or near you more a concern if you live in an apartment where people are up,down left and right,I have my AR and a few .45s the pistol I would use indoor the shotgun is first choice ,never the AR unless its all I had and they make TAP ammo or 40 gr blitzer rounds for use indoors,But dont turn the assailent into swiss cheese unless you want to stand trial too.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 2:22:44 PM EDT
Exactly what Coldblue said!! Also, SULACO2, You can try the 75 gr. BH with a 1/9 and see if it'll stabilize well enough. Some do some don't but at a short range(inside house or perimeter) I wouldnt think it should be to bad unless it's flying sideway's. The 55 gr. should be OK at that distance as well but if you can stabilize the heavier stuff you will get far better fragmentation. Also, if your life is depending on it get the more costly stuff. You would'nt want to wish you had during an encounter! As for shotgun vs. AR15 this is an ongoing debate. Use your AR and practice what you aim at! 5.56 penetrates walls far less than people are led to think!! Birdshot?
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 2:30:14 PM EDT
Why not just use hollow-points? We're not limited by the conventions of war here...
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 3:06:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2003 3:12:05 PM EDT by Boom_Stick]
Unless its an SBR you might as well use that extra 5.5" of real-estate for barrel instead of flash hider. For home defense I suggest a shotgun or pistol. Maybe even a pistol caliber AR on a pre-ban lower so you can use a collapsible stock. If you cant afford a pre-ban lower use an RRA entry stock. 30 rounds of 9mm out of a carbine would do the job nicely.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 3:06:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Deuce01: It has a 5.5" flash hider permanently attached by BM. D01
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If you're going bring the barrel length to 16" and avoid registration as an SBR, you might as well just go with a 16" barrel. You'll get better velocity and more reliable fragmention and have the same length. If you're planning on doing it as a 10.5" or 11.5" without registration as an SBR, I would strongly advise you to keep it burried and never use it for self defense. You'll lose significant velocity with the shorter barrel, but it'll still do enough damage at close range to stop an intruder. Of course when the police come to investigate the incident, you'd be charged with felony possession of an unregistered NFA weapon regardless of whether it was a justifiable shooting or not.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 3:46:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2003 3:49:38 PM EDT by model927]
To HORIK there is no debate the shotgun is the best close quarter weapon in the world,multi projectiles mean even a near miss will produce a hit somehing a rifle or handgun cant do,1 squeeze 1 projectile unless you are praying for richochets to do the job and yes bird shot the larger type I think its #6 shot will be devastating at close range but not enough to go through walls the way buckshot or slugs will,I love my pre and post bushy but in the home I keep the shotgun handy,so instead of waiting for the badguys to see my AR they will know whats heading their way when they hear "KA CHUNK" even people who dont know guns know "SHOTGUN".And size is not a problem my preban is a carbine so its very manuverable indoors,My moss 590 has a top folder and is just as compact,so the advantage for indoor defense goes to the shotgun.On my AR pre ban I went 14.5 with the permanent phantom wich is still shorter than a 16" with a birdcage unless its post ban then a crowned muzzle would be shorter than something with a mini y comp or you could put on a fake supressor and get the look of the barrel being shorter and still have the legnth.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 3:53:51 PM EDT
Yes I understand the "cachunk" sound is effective but when I shoot indoors I do not pray for a ricochet I hit what I am aiming at instead of hoping one of my shotgun pellets does'nt go astray. One shotgun pellet hitting an individual is not gonna do a whole lot. There is a debate or every SWAT team in the world would be clearing rooms with shotguns eh? It is all opinion! Near misses mean potential hits....at the wrong target.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 6:19:06 PM EDT
go for a 16" SLW barrel from Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 8:35:20 PM EDT
To HORIK the premise we are talking about is not room clearing I beleive we were talking about intruders in ones home Im not on a swat team nor do I intend on clearing rooms,in a home invasion I would #1 give my wife the pistol and the cordless phone to call the police,my childrens rooms are right next door so I wouldnt be off looking for intruders to become a casulty myself I would get the kids go back to the bedroom that way there is only one way in through the bedroom door there the intruders would be met by shotgun and pistol fire,I agree in room clearing precise fire is a must especialy if inocents are present such as hostages but with my wife and I armed the children with us our backs to the wall and weapons pointing in the direction of the only entrance in Im not worried about the wrong person getting hit I just hope to hit and in a life and death close combat situation sometimes well aimed fire is not an option so any hit on the intruders near or otherwise is still a hit,one pellet wont bring him down but maybe hell get the message to leave or charge the room and absorb a full shotgun blast. and being on the phone at the same time with the police I would let them know there are intruders that we are armed and to please I dentify themselves when they get to my home thats why in a home invasion a phone in one hand and gun in the other is the way to go,no matter how well you know your home if you decide to go on a search for the intruders you are asking to be ambushed by those you hope to defeat,the way to win is to force them to fight you on your terms or not to fight you at all,in this situation common sense and not swat tactics will prevail,I know ive lived through a break in with my family and thankfully I didnt have to shoot any one I told him I didnt want to kill him but would if I had to and he professed a desire not to die,so he dropped the kitchen knife he got when he broke in down stairs,Im a lite sleeper,thats why now I have a home security system for an earlier alert,swat tactics didnt win barricading myself with my family in the bedroom and calling the police did,he eventualy found his way upstairs and thats where the police 5 minutes after my wife called found him face down on the landing with his hands on his head and me with my 590 standing watch over him from the doorway.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 12:06:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2003 12:08:01 AM EDT by knightone]
Model927. That's assuming that you can get to your children before the bad guy. What if the disturbance you hear in the middle of the night is from your child's room. Are you going to go in there with the shotgun and risk sending buckshot in a pattern toward the general direction of your kids? Are you going to use the pistol, which is less controllable in a stressful situation than a long gun? A horrible scenario to imagine, but I'd rather imagine it than to risk having it happen and not have the right plan or the right weapon to remedy the situation. Most likely, it will never occur, but you should plan as if it might.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 8:41:07 PM EDT
Were talking shotgun here, not a scattergun. 00 buck maintains a fairly tight pattern well beyong the length of a room, even in a cylinder bore (under 6 inches), and using the right shot, say #2 buck or smaller, you loose the factor of overpenetration - a really bad thing in an urban CQB setting. The great aspect of the shot is not that the pattern is so wide you will hit anything it is generally pointed out (not true at under 20 yards), but that each hit will likely produce multiple simultaneous impact wounds. Trauma doctors can handle 1 or 3 bullet holes, but 5-9, or a second shot that gives another 5-9 holes cause shock trauma that is very difficult to recover from. If you are going to fire an AR-15 indoors, say goodbye to your hearing. I have read articles about LEO coming out of rooms, after having fired AR-15's, with blood coming out of their ears. If you must fire an AR-15 indoors, without hearing protection, you better have a suppressor (or a lesser effective moderator) on the end of that barrel. Shotguns won't do that to you, and aren't considered evil even though they do MASSIVE damage at close range.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 8:22:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2003 8:24:08 AM EDT by Hands_First]
Originally Posted By second: Deuce01: Do you really want to use such a weapon in this PC climate as a home defense weapon? If you shot an intruder with that 10.5" BM and, God forbids, that somehow you ended up in court, the appearance of the weapon may get you in trouble with the PC jury. The 5.56mm projectile stops disintegrating at 2400 fps. Below that velocity, the projectile will only yaw. If you insist on using the BM with 10.5" barrel for close range engagement, your velocity would only be about 2600 fps with commercial ammunition. With that velocity, the projectile will only disintegrate into two pieces below the cannelure, and the tip will yaw. It will still do considerable amount of damage, but a .45, 9mm, or .357 HPs can do just as much damage. What kind of muzzle attachment are we talking about here? AK type muzzle break or suppressor? Man, if you shoot that thing in door, you may suffer blown ear drums. What do you have against the good ole' shotgun? Too be honest with you, shooting any center fire rifle indoor without hearing protection is asking for trouble, so why don't you just use a shotgun just incase you need to appease a PC prosecutor. Just my $.02. Have fun!
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That's exactly why I joined this forum!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 8:51:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By second: The 5.56mm projectile stops disintegrating at 2400 fps.
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That depends ENTIRELY on which 5.56 round you are using. M193 usually needs 2700-2500fps while 75gr Hornady OTM will still fragment violentnly in the 2200-2100fps range.
What kind of muzzle attachment are we talking about here? AK type muzzle break or suppressor? Man, if you shoot that thing in door, you may suffer blown ear drums.
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He will no matter which muzzle device he is using (Unless its a 'can).
Too be honest with you, shooting any center fire rifle indoor without hearing protection is asking for trouble, so why don't you just use a shotgun
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The sound from a shotgun will be just as bad - if not worse. (Giles Stock indicated it was worse). There are many reasons to select a rifle over the shotgun for home defense, and a few to select the shotgun over the rifle. But I'd rather have an AR with a barrel of at least 14.5"
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