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10/30/2020 2:42:12 PM
Posted: 12/24/2003 10:20:26 AM EST
I'm buying an ar15 for outdoor use. Basically I will be walking with the gun all day (So will the weight of the gun be important? or are all Ar15's fairly light) and it will be exposed to rain etc.

Currently I'm looking at the colt line but not sure if they have the setup I want. I heard 1x9 is the way to go. SO IN the colt line I think the Match Target Competition HBAR II is the gun for me. It has a 16" barrel, and a 1x9.
It is also only 7.1 pounds. I like the buttstock of the match target M4 but that is a 1x7 twist, and I can always buy that separate.
What exactly is the difference between the carbine version and regular version? What are advantages and disadvantages of them?

I also read where if the bore and chamber are chrome lined its far better. Does the colt aR15, particularly the HBAR II chrome lined in both chamber and barrel?

So what do you think? I'm basically trying to get ideas now. I'm not worried about money for the initial buy that’s why I figure I would go with a colt.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 10:35:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/24/2003 10:38:25 AM EST by BUSTER51]
What you want is a colt MT6400c it has it all ,if you search you can get one for $900.00 to $950.00 .the best cost more ,but a close second is the Bushmaster m4 at Aim for $750.00(a2) A3 is $800.00 I think .10 OR 20 YEARS FROM NOW YOU'LL BE GLAD YOU GOT THE COLT.1 IN 7 IS BETTER FOR HEAVY 68 AND UP AND WORKS GREAT FOR 55 GRAIN.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 10:40:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/24/2003 10:43:56 AM EST by Knife_Sniper]
Well, the Colt isnt built much better than Armalite, Bushmaster, or ROCK RIVER. All of them will run cheaper than a colt though.
Most agree, you pay a little bit more for the colt name. Remember this though, ever manufacturer WILL occasionaly put out a lemon.

My Bushmaster patrolmans carbine has been good to me, without a malfunction in over 1000 rounds. I wish I had the $$ to try the other brands though.      

First off, HBAR is not necessary. I think it would be my last choice for a rifle I had to lug around all day. Think lighter, either have a smith cut the diameter of the barrel, or go with another brand that offers a lighter barrel.

Chrome lining is a desired feature, as it makes cleaning easier and lengthens the life of the bore.

An AR15 is roughly the sum of its parts. If you are so inclined you might want to build one to your EXACT specifications. Building an AR15 does not require special knowledge, just the ability to follow instructions provided on this site and basic tools. (A hammer, tape, and a nail in some cases, for those too cheap to buy real tools =)

If I was in your situation I would build something like this:

[b]Upper[/b]
Bushmaster Patrolmans carbine barrel mated with an detachable carry handle upper (You will regret A2 later)
or a Bushmaster superlite.

[b]Lower[/b]
Cavalry Arms (plasitc lower with fixxed A1 buttstock)
or traditional aluminum lowers made by:
Armalite, Eagle Arms, Bushmaster, or RRA.
(With seperate A1 length buttstock)

[b]BOLT[/b]
COLT
Why a colt bolt? They are regarded to be particularly long lasting and quality made bolt group.


You really cant go wrong with the ABCRs
ARMALITE-BUSHMASTER-COLT-ROCK RIVER ARMS
They all have excellent products
I forgot, Cavalry arms is nice stuff too.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 10:45:52 AM EST
Unless I'm mistaken the HBAR II doesn't have a chrome lined bore. The Bushmaster M4 would meet your requirements. 1/9, chrome lined bore and chamber, and a M4 buttstock.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 10:51:25 AM EST
Maybe for my 2nd AR15 I would probably build my own, but for my first gun I would like it all built up so I learn easily.

I'm a little confused it says right on the ar15 website on ideal weapon the following about twist rates.

"The barrel’s twist rate refers to the distance a bullet travels in the barrel to complete a full revolution. For instance, a 1/9" twist means that the bullet will make a complete revolution for each 9 inches traveled in the barrel. Heavier bullets require a faster twist rate to stabilize them correctly, but too fast of a twist rate will potentially cause a bullet to spin apart. For this reason it is important to match a barrel to the bullets being fired. In selecting a single twist rate for the survival AR, either a 1/7" or a 1/9" will serve the purpose best. These barrels are designed for bullets from 55 to 62 grains, and these are the weights that will most likely be used in survival. The 1/9 is the better of the two, but the majority of Colts/military barrels are 1/7."

So why would I be better off with a 1x7twist?


Also when you say HBAR is not necessary, on the colts web page the HBAR is actually lighter then the Carbine.
http://www.colt.com/CMCI/MTCompHBARII.asp
http://www.colt.com/CMCI/MTM4.asp

So you would think the better accuracy of the HBAR is worth it, I mean its the same weight.

SO what advantages do the carbine really offer?
And what about that Compressor on the carbine?


Link Posted: 12/24/2003 10:54:14 AM EST
I picked up my M4 2 days ago and literally just walked back in the door from shooting it for the first time.  I love it, it has a great trigger, is accurate like no other rifle I have owned, well balanced, light, comfortable, I could go on and on about the pros of this weapon.  However there is 1 con that everyone knows about, the mini y comp.  Everyone kept saying how much louder it maked it and how the shock wave is ridiculous.  Well let me tell you, none of them are exaggerating!  It is incredible that a .223 can generate that much noise!  I was wearing the same ear protection that I wear when I shoot anything else and after 20 rounds I thought my head was going to explode!  I am going to get that thing off there ASAP.  I can't imagine how loud that would be in a CQB situation such as a home invasion!  I am going to take a couple of Advil and try to get rid of this brain splitting headache I have before I head off to dinner with the GF and her parents.  It is a great weapon, but get it without that damn mini comp.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 11:17:28 AM EST
WHy does that mini Y comp. make the gun so much louder?
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 11:34:58 AM EST
HBAR wont make the gun any more accurate, it makes you more accurate by helping you keep the barrel steady. IE less felt "noise" disrupting your sight picture becuase small muscle tremors dont affect the heavy rifle as much.

A pencil thin barrel will be as accuate as an HBAR untill it heats up, then groupings will open up a bit. Make no doubt though, a penicl thin barrel is still accurate enough hot to do what you need to do even when slightly warm.  

Maybe for my 2nd AR15 I would probably build my own, but for my first gun I would like it all built up so I learn easily.
View Quote


Oh, if you build it, and it breaks, you will know how to fix it. Thats the best learnin you can get. It will also be cheaper if you build it and again... it will be custom for you.

Here you go, short list of rifle weights by barrel. All bushmaster rifles.

[img]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/pcwa2y16sl.jpg[/img]
5.80 pounds, superlight barrel, stubby stock.

[img]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/pcwa2x14m4my.jpg[/img]
6.59 pounds, m4 profile barrel (Skinny under the handguards)

[img]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/pcwa2s16.jpg[/img]
7.22 pounds, HBAR barrel profile

All HBARS are at the heavy end of the scale. You save a little bit of weight with a non HBAR barrel. Also, the above rifles are a sample of other configurations.

You are best off without a muzzle brake. It reduces felt recoil while sending the blast of the rifle back at the user or off to the sides. The Y comp is said to reduce recoil allot, however, it is also labeled as the loudest.

Stay away from muzzle brakes unless you have time to slap on hearing protection. I wouldnt want to shoot those "naked".
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 12:06:53 PM EST
How would you recommend the panther arms lite 16".

http://www.pantherarms.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=RFA2-L16

If I'm going to be carrying the gun around all day won't that light weight come in handy? IS this the lightest AR15 you can buy at a reasonable price?

I never hear anyone mention a word about panther arms on this forum.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:15:00 PM EST
Panther ARMS is DPMS.      
They are a known brand, but a small company.

Make sure it has a forged receiver, not a cast.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:29:05 PM EST

I agree with all of the above, I just wanted to add, you would be better off to steer clear of Hesse Arms/Vulcans Arms AR15 clones for quality and customer service reasons. I don't want to break the "vendor bashing" rule, but in this case I think this is a fair piece of advice.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:44:54 PM EST
just out of courosity, i am woundering,  what are you going to be using this rifle for.  we know your going to be toating it around all day.  but would you need the accurecy after say the first 30 rounds or so.          just couruse if its going to be used for    hunting or paper punching or  "Other"
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:05:34 PM EST
Actually I need the rifle for the following.
www.ranchrescue.com

I'm planning on makeing a trip down there, you would have to read the website to see for yourself. SO I will be lugging this gun around with me all day, and also need to use it in case I need to defend myself.

But I also have in mind maybe doing some competitions with the rifle? Hey I used to love shooting my BB gun in competition.

So what would be a good lightweight AR15 for this kind of field duty.



Link Posted: 12/25/2003 4:54:31 AM EST
If your looking for a good gun that is very light i would try the bushmaster ultralight. CDNN has them with the pinned telestock for $699. I would also try to get something without a muzzle break in case you have to fire without hearing protection. Firing a m4 with a mini y comp with no ear plugs feels like someone is stabbing you in the ear while punching you in the jaw.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 6:35:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By BUSTER51:
What you want is a colt MT6400c it has it all ,if you search you can get one for $900.00 to $950.00 .the best cost more ,but a close second is the Bushmaster m4 at Aim for $750.00(a2) A3 is $800.00 I think .10 OR 20 YEARS FROM NOW YOU'LL BE GLAD YOU GOT THE COLT.1 IN 7 IS BETTER FOR HEAVY 68 AND UP AND WORKS GREAT FOR 55 GRAIN.
View Quote

I agree with the 1/7 Colt!  I have a Colt MT6601 20" 1/7 and it shoots 55grn 5.56 very accurate.  There are some great new loads out 75, 77grn, and up.  The 1/7 will give you that option.   Also you will never regret going with a Colt.  Just my $0.02 [coffee]

Btw, Welcome to the Board eddie500!!
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 6:43:14 AM EST
If your near the desert, you might want to rethink your rifle purchase. Especially seeing that the "enemy" might be carrying .308 FN FALS.
You might want to up that caliber choice.

Do you see yourself as one who maintains a weapon constantly? Do you see yourself cracking the gun open and wiping down the bolt twice a day? If so, an AR15 will do you fine in the desert.  

If you dont want to maintain the weapon much, you might want to try out an AK-74.

The AK-74 is an AK chambered in 5.45x39. It is a very good weapon for those who do not maintain their weapons at all times. A good one can group around 2-3" at 100 yards, while a chrome lined AR can group about 1 1/2".
With the money you have saved on the weapon, you could use the extra cash for ammunition, magazines, and a nice russian optic or a military combat optic with rangefinder and everything else. Do not be put off by it being a "cheap" weapon. Personally, I would take my AR15 everywhere but the desert with 100% faith in my weapon. However, in the sandy conditions of deep south texas I would rather lug my AK-47 along just because its design can take the gritty dirt and still shoot.  

A bottom line SAR-2 will run about $300. (Great Value)
A nicer Arsenal AK-74 will run about $500
Better fit and finish.

Look into them. If you can find a nice SAR-2, you will have a keeper for life.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 6:46:38 AM EST
[LOLabove]
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 6:57:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2003 6:59:25 AM EST by _DR]
Originally Posted By Knife_Sniper:
If your near the desert, you might want to rethink your rifle purchase. Especially seeing that the "enemy" might be carrying .308 FN FALS.
You might want to up that caliber choice.

Do you see yourself as one who maintains a weapon constantly? Do you see yourself cracking the gun open and wiping down the bolt twice a day? If so, an AR15 will do you fine in the desert.  

If you dont want to maintain the weapon much, you might want to try out an AK-74.

The AK-74 is an AK chambered in 5.45x39. It is a very good weapon for those who do not maintain their weapons at all times. A good one can group around 2-3" at 100 yards, while a chrome lined AR can group about 1 1/2".
With the money you have saved on the weapon, you could use the extra cash for ammunition, magazines, and a nice russian optic or a military combat optic with rangefinder and everything else. Do not be put off by it being a "cheap" weapon. Personally, I would take my AR15 everywhere but the desert with 100% faith in my weapon. However, in the sandy conditions of deep south texas I would rather lug my AK-47 along just because its design can take the gritty dirt and still shoot.  

A bottom line SAR-2 will run about $300. (Great Value)
A nicer Arsenal AK-74 will run about $500
Better fit and finish.

Look into them. If you can find a nice SAR-2, you will have a keeper for life.
View Quote


One thing about the SARs, though. On mine I found that it ws a reliable rifle, however, the us made compliance trigger group that Century dropped in is very poor, and had lots of trigger slap. You would want to upgrade this to a Red Star Arms trigger group or something similar. The rest of the weapon was fine. If you change out the wood furniture for KVAR synthetic black or OD, it will look less like a standard AK, and you would less likely to be shot while being mistaken as a terrorist, also!

The AK74 (SAR2) with the 5.45mm or the SAR 3 5.56mm is actually fairly accurate compared to the AKM/AK47 (SAR1) contrary to popular belief, if one was to choose that route.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 6:59:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By rallykid:
I picked up my M4 2 days ago and literally just walked back in the door from shooting it for the first time.  I love it, it has a great trigger, is accurate like no other rifle I have owned, well balanced, light, comfortable, I could go on and on about the pros of this weapon.  However there is 1 con that everyone knows about, the mini y comp.  Everyone kept saying how much louder it maked it and how the shock wave is ridiculous.  Well let me tell you, none of them are exaggerating!  It is incredible that a .223 can generate that much noise!  I was wearing the same ear protection that I wear when I shoot anything else and after 20 rounds I thought my head was going to explode!  I am going to get that thing off there ASAP.  I can't imagine how loud that would be in a CQB situation such as a home invasion!  I am going to take a couple of Advil and try to get rid of this brain splitting headache I have before I head off to dinner with the GF and her parents.  It is a great weapon, but get it without that damn mini comp.
View Quote

I Agree, "NO COMP"  I prefer to have the "blast/dbs" down range!  [coffee]
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 7:08:07 AM EST
I just bought a RRA lower and a RRA 16in. A2 upper for 599.00 Lighter and as reliable as either the Colt or Armalite I've had.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 7:11:32 AM EST
I do love the AK74 rifle. With optics its even nicer. BUT where he's going to be carrying it he does need to look like a friendly, to LEO and other workers from the same group or different groups. The outline of a AK rifle with untrained pumped up minds of TERRORIST might get him shot dead by his own group. The vast majority of " My friend carried an AK47 the whole time while in NAM is B. S.  . With most troops and units( standard units ) the sound of an AK going off is going to bring immediate M16 return fire.We will go out and check who was holding it later.
Suggestion, a Light barrel flat top.Put an good optic on it for distance and get the flip up rear sight you can mount on the rails and zero that in and get good with it. If your scope goes down , you need yopur IRONS.IMO WarDawg
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 7:21:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2003 7:24:13 AM EST by _DR]
Yep,the AK is an icon synonomous with enemies of the free world. If added reliabilty in dusty conditions on an AR15 was desired, and money was no object, one could opt for a gas piston upper such as the ZMweapons upper. The gas piston operating rod adds a measure of reliability I wish I could afford...

[url]http://www.zmweapons.com/lr-300srf.htm[/url]

[img]http://www.zmweapons.com/images/Pb_triksm.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 7:28:42 AM EST
Very Cool!!        [coffee]
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 7:49:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2003 7:56:24 AM EST by Knife_Sniper]
One thing about the SARs, though. On mine I found that it ws a reliable rifle, however, the us made compliance trigger group that Century dropped in is very poor, and had lots of trigger slap. You would want to upgrade this to a Red Star Arms trigger group or something similar.
View Quote


Naturally.


The rest of the weapon was fine. If you change out the wood furniture for KVAR synthetic black or OD, it will look less like a standard AK, and you would less likely to be shot while being mistaken as a terrorist, also!
View Quote


If he is traveling with his own group of 20 other guys all wearing kahki, I would hope they had enough coordination to keep freindly fire incendents non-existant. I would not go do that stuff with a group of armchair jockeys... first I would want to make sure one of them had adequate training to teach the team proper formations, do's and dont's of fighting in thick brush, ect. I would want to see each and every member given a small course in firearm safety and basic small unit tactics with an emphasis on unit cohesion and formation. No doubt some of these guys are military or leo, thats great. I would want them to give each member, including me, some pointers and basic techniques for the patrol to keep us from shooting each other.

With most troops and units( standard units ) the sound of an AK going off is going to bring immediate M16 return fire.
View Quote


It seems to me they have a hodgepodge of personal weapons already mixed together.
If he is NOT doing secuity detail, IE he is work crew, then im sure the [r]orange vest[/r] that is mandatory to wear would dinstinguish him from enemies. Better yet, ask the organizers to offer their own advice and take it to heart.

I am not 100% sure, but I think this group is organized enough to keep communication going with the border patrol and LEO presence. It would be retarded not to. Other than those two agencies that could be present, the website never says anything about multiple patrols. Ask if their is going to be several patrols running around the area. If their is only one group patroling, I doubt freindly fire is something you would have to worry about provided your team has been given basic training to keep the unit coordinated.

If their are multiple patrols milling about on 3000 acres, then by all means, match your equipment to theirs to keep misidentification to a low. More important than looking like your friends, is communicating with them to know where they are in the first place.

Goldtopdude

Whats so funny?

You arent a kalashnikov hater are you?
People around here tend to tear people apart when they bash good, proven weapon systems.
[:p]
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 2:33:06 PM EST
Get an Armalite M15A4C or a AR10A4C contoured bbl (.308) they come with a lifetime warrenty!
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 6:04:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Knife_Sniper:


Goldtopdude

Whats so funny?

You arent a kalashnikov hater are you?
People around here tend to tear people apart when they bash good, proven weapon systems.
[:p]
View Quote

Sorry KS, I thought he was looking for an AR style rifle.  Also I thought I was posting on the AR board as well, and got a kick out of your post.  
Am I a Kalashnikov hater?  NOT AT ALL!  Have a Merry Christmas!  ps I'll buy ya one---[beer]
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