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Posted: 9/8/2023 10:28:17 AM EST
Tried a LPVO years ago and it didn't stick with me. Tried again last winter with a nicer model and I'm already thinking about pulling it and replacing with a RDS. The scope is nice but I only have access to a range that's longer than 200yds for a few months of the year(when the crops are out) otherwise my shooting is all within 200 and with a RDS I'm more than accurate enough at those ranges for defensive/SHTF shooting scenarios. I could probably buy a magnifier with a removable mount for those times I might think I need a little more power.

Past 200yds I think a guy would be better off with a larger caliber and more power than a LPVO offers.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 10:42:57 AM EST
[#1]
I really like an LPVO on a 5.56 gun.  Let’s me see close in to further out.  Nowadays, mine are dated.  They’re first gen Vortex Viper 1-4’s.  Would probably be better to upgrade to 1-8’s or maybe even a 1-10x.  

I also  have some with 3x prism sights too.  I like those as well.  Shorter and fixed magnification with red or green illumination is nice.  

In the end, you have to do what is best for you.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 10:43:14 AM EST
[#2]
For what you've described, you are probably right.

Here in CO or anywhere longer shots are available, they make sense.

My only complaint is the battery life compared to something like an MRO or one of Holosun's offerings.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 10:47:21 AM EST
[#3]
When you have astigmatism and the RDS just isn't working out for you anymore, LVPO or prism all the things!  

I sold all of the Bushnell AR scopes like this one and went with Vortex Viper with illuminated dot.  The Bushnell crosshairs were too wide.  I never thought that would be an issue either, until it was.

Link Posted: 9/8/2023 10:48:20 AM EST
[#4]
Quoted:
Tried a LPVO years ago and it didn't stick with me. Tried again last winter with a nicer model and I'm already thinking about pulling it and replacing with a RDS. The scope is nice but I only have access to a range that's longer than 200yds for a few months of the year(when the crops are out) otherwise my shooting is all within 200 and with a RDS I'm more than accurate enough at those ranges for defensive/SHTF shooting scenarios. I could probably buy a magnifier with a removable mount for those times I might think I need a little more power.

Past 200yds I think a guy would be better off with a larger caliber and more power than a LPVO offers.
View Quote


If you live in IA and this is in any way a shtf (even 1%) gun, it's pretty negligent to not have 4x or better in my estimation.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 10:51:04 AM EST
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

If you live in IA and this is in any way a shtf (even 1%) gun, it's pretty negligent to not have 4x or better in my estimation.
View Quote
It definitely becomes an issue if you need to identify whether a perp is holding a weapon.  This is difficult with an unmagnified optic.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 11:10:46 AM EST
[#6]
Exactly.  Magnification is just as important for PID ad it is for actual shooting.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 11:27:01 AM EST
[#7]
Maybe I'll give it a little more time and see if it grows on me. My eyes aren't getting any better so the day might come where I won't be able to use a RDS.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 11:33:12 AM EST
[#8]
For practical non-LEO defense in a non-SHTF situation a RDS should cover 99% of all self defense situations.  


For gun games, hunting, etc. scopes are helpful.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 11:37:29 AM EST
[#9]
Op is 100% right.  A red dot will do everything you need for HD or SHTF.  

Technology drove this demand not real world need.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 11:38:12 AM EST
[#10]
OP I understand what you mean and are talking about.  Something I did years ago was move all my optics into QD mounts and start keeping a DOPE log for each optic and what rifle it was with the load I shot.  So if for some reason that day I do not want to shoot the rifle with a LPVO or a red dot I can pop the optic off and put something different.  Say tomorrow I get access to my cousin's range that goes out to 900m I am going to want to use a higher magnification optic over a RDS/LPVO.  But say he want to shoot his pistol rifle course he setup I am not going to want to shoot it with my 5-25x scope I am going to want my LPVO or red dot.  Since I do not want to have to have a red dot for every rifle, a LPVO and high mag scope for every single rifle I can get buy with 4 scopes, 2 prism, and 3 red dots for all my setups.  Also I do not have to learn 15-20 different optics on their operations what the reticle values are or whatever can vary scope to scope.
I get the intended purpose of LPVOs but like other options they have trade offs, disadvantages, and advantages.

Quoted:
Op is 100% right.  A red dot will do everything you need for HD or SHTF.  

Technology drove this demand not real world need.
View Quote


That is not entirely true a red dot is not going to give you a clear answer to is that guy holding at 200m.  6x over 1x is clearly going to give you advantages of seeing more detail at longer distances just like a red dot is going to be easier to get a close in target lined up.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 12:11:08 PM EST
[#11]
A RDS combined with astigmatism isn't going to get you a sub 1" group at 100Y.   Most of us aren't shooting bad guys as often as we are punching paper or banging steel.

That rifle in my photo will put them all in one hole at 50Y, but not with an RDS or Bushnell LVPO.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 12:43:55 PM EST
[#12]
Ask not what your optic can do for you, ask what you plan to do with your rifle.

I have a few LPVO’s but only use one and it’s on a 308 carbine. Everything else is prisms with red dots due to astigmatism.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 12:50:03 PM EST
[#13]
I have both, I have always used the rifle with RDS for carbine class but that is 100 yd max and mostly 25 yd.

One thing about LPVO is etched reticle works if battery or electronics fail. This assumes you have a fire dot LPVO, which I do.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 12:51:30 PM EST
[#14]
Different people like different things. I like my old-school 1.5-4 Leupold green Firedot. I find it a good, all-around optic for me.

Do what's best for you OP.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 2:04:24 PM EST
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Different people like different things. I like my old-school 1.5-4 Leupold green Firedot. I find it a good, all-around optic for me.

Do what's best for you OP.
View Quote


I have a couple of those.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 2:22:07 PM EST
[#16]
I think you'll get a very good sense of what works for you once you regularly put some rounds downrange in your environment with your chosen setup.

It only becomes fuzzy when you start to throw in hypotheticals since that data is no longer first hand.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 4:16:41 PM EST
[#17]
It's perfectly acceptable to simply not jive with something.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 5:07:34 PM EST
[#18]
Bigger objectives gather more light. I came to realize I want nothing under 42mm. They are that much more brighter in twilight.
As a bonus, the exit pupil size is larger so even in bright daylight the image is easier on the eyes.

8x given 24mm objective in twilight= impossible.

I would buy a 4x42mm if ACOG made such a thing. Even 3x35mm like TA11 is brighter than any LPVO.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 5:13:06 PM EST
[#19]
Went out this afternoon and put some more rounds through the rifle at varying distances. I can start to see the benefit of having a LPVO in the mix, at all distances my groups were half what they are with a RDS.

At 200yds shooting prone and using the mag as a monopod I can keep all my shots in a 3" bullseye without much effort. With my RDS rifle I can barely even see a 3" target at that range so I usually switch to a 6"and then my groups open up to around 7-8"(with cheap ammo)

I have a 100yd zero and at 200yds it's about 3" low. I took a few shots at a 300yd gong and I was making hits on most shots using the hash mark under the center crosshair but I need to shoot at paper to see exactly where it's hitting with that aiming mark. I ran out of my good ammo so that'll have to wait until another day.

I still prefer a RDS for most shooting but if I knew the shots were going to be past 100-150yds I'd probably grab the LPVO.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 6:30:47 PM EST
[#20]
Quoted:
otherwise my shooting is all within 200 and with a RDS I'm more than accurate enough at those ranges for defensive/SHTF shooting scenarios.
View Quote

Tell us you’re a bad shot without saying you’re a bad shot.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 6:34:43 PM EST
[#21]
I've had a LVPO since waayyy before anyone called them that. Had a Leupold 1.5-5x20 SPR on my patrol rifle in the early 2000's. Still have the same scope on a rifle to this day.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 7:20:39 PM EST
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Tell us you’re a bad shot without saying you’re a bad shot.
View Quote

What do you consider a bad shot? At 100yds shooting a regular CL barrel with an unmagnified RDS using M193 or ADI 69Gr SMK I can consistently hold 3" groups in the prone and sitting position using either the magazine(prone)or my knees for support. At 200yds with the same setup I open up to around 8" groups with the ADI and slightly larger with the cheaper M193, I can't see a 3" target that far away so I'm sort of guessing where it's at on the sheet of paper. With magnification the groups are inside of 4" out to 200yds.

I guess if this makes me a bad shot then it's my funeral. At least I'm not bragging about being a sniper that can shoot 1/2 MOA at 1000yds.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 7:45:57 PM EST
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

What do you consider a bad shot? At 100yds shooting a regular CL barrel with an unmagnified RDS using M193 or ADI 69Gr SMK I can consistently hold 3" groups in the prone and sitting position using either the magazine(prone)or my knees for support. At 200yds with the same setup I open up to around 8" groups with the ADI and slightly larger with the cheaper M193, I can't see a 3" target that far away so I'm sort of guessing where it's at on the sheet of paper. With magnification the groups are inside of 4" out to 200yds.

I guess if this makes me a bad shot then it's my funeral. At least I'm not bragging about being a sniper that can shoot 1/2 MOA at 1000yds.
View Quote

Exactly lol
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 8:43:02 PM EST
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

What do you consider a bad shot? At 100yds shooting a regular CL barrel with an unmagnified RDS using M193 or ADI 69Gr SMK I can consistently hold 3" groups in the prone and sitting position using either the magazine(prone)or my knees for support. At 200yds with the same setup I open up to around 8" groups with the ADI and slightly larger with the cheaper M193, I can't see a 3" target that far away so I'm sort of guessing where it's at on the sheet of paper. With magnification the groups are inside of 4" out to 200yds.

I guess if this makes me a bad shot then it's my funeral. At least I'm not bragging about being a sniper that can shoot 1/2 MOA at 1000yds.
View Quote

People who shoot short range think that because they can stack rounds at 50 yards with a red dot that it translates equally to any distance. Don’t sweat it. Ignorance is bliss.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 8:51:41 PM EST
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

What do you consider a bad shot? At 100yds shooting a regular CL barrel with an unmagnified RDS using M193 or ADI 69Gr SMK I can consistently hold 3" groups in the prone and sitting position using either the magazine(prone)or my knees for support. At 200yds with the same setup I open up to around 8" groups with the ADI and slightly larger with the cheaper M193, I can't see a 3" target that far away so I'm sort of guessing where it's at on the sheet of paper. With magnification the groups are inside of 4" out to 200yds.

I guess if this makes me a bad shot then it's my funeral. At least I'm not bragging about being a sniper that can shoot 1/2 MOA at 1000yds.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

Tell us you’re a bad shot without saying you’re a bad shot.

What do you consider a bad shot? At 100yds shooting a regular CL barrel with an unmagnified RDS using M193 or ADI 69Gr SMK I can consistently hold 3" groups in the prone and sitting position using either the magazine(prone)or my knees for support. At 200yds with the same setup I open up to around 8" groups with the ADI and slightly larger with the cheaper M193, I can't see a 3" target that far away so I'm sort of guessing where it's at on the sheet of paper. With magnification the groups are inside of 4" out to 200yds.

I guess if this makes me a bad shot then it's my funeral. At least I'm not bragging about being a sniper that can shoot 1/2 MOA at 1000yds.

If you can actually do that then you’re alright. Everyone who I’ve met who says it’s good enough usually can’t hit the broad side of a barn and figure if the can hit a silhouette they’re good enough.
Link Posted: 9/8/2023 9:22:10 PM EST
[#26]
The original post is correct if we are talking an LVPO on a 5.56.
For non LEO stateside civilians, there are better options (unless you are shooting 4 legged critters....which means you really have a varmint gun).

Link Posted: 9/8/2023 10:13:13 PM EST
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

If you can actually do that then you’re alright. Everyone who I’ve met who says it’s good enough usually can’t hit the broad side of a barn and figure if the can hit a silhouette they’re good enough.
View Quote


Let me guess you are a sub-MOA shooter and it just comes all natural to you.  Those are big words to call someone a bad shot based off no observational data.  I am no expert shooter grand master tier one guy but I can hold my own well enough.  Saying that I can say as a matter of fact I am not a bad shooter but I am also not a great shooter I still learn new stuff all the time and push my limits.  Hell I would love to be a consistent sub-MOA shooter but sub groups are more the anomaly rather than the norm.  I also have my bad days that I think I cannot hit the broadside of a barn but usually have a friend bring me back to reality that I am shooting at best 2-4MOA ammo and shooting 2-4MOA groups.  Shooting M193 ammo with a red dot and making hits within the spec of the ammo is what a good shooter does.  You do not have to be great you just have to make hits.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 5:20:28 AM EST
[#28]
Every person I have ever seen who says they prefer a red dot to a LPVO on a rifle for uses past 50y has low shooting standards for accuracy, poor shooting skills, or they don't understand how difficult it can be to hit a human that does not want to get shot. Basically,  they eithet can't shoot well, don't see any value in shooting well, or lack imagination.

You say a red dot does everything inside of 200 yards.

What standard of accuracy are you looking for?

For me, I want to see and hit a target actively hiding, peeking around or over a barrier. At 200 yards. On the first shot. Every single time.

I need to be able to see and hit a 4" target at 200 yards on the first shot and know I can make the shot. That is just not going to happen with a red dot. Ever. Not for me. Not unless I have an LPVO or at least a magnifier.

A group shot on paper, to zero a weapon, for maximum precision...when all the bullets don't make a single hole... that is a failure to me. With a red dot... I have to live with a 50 yard zero on an AR where all I can do is put all the bullets into a 2" circle. Maybe, if I am lucky, all the bullets at least touching a 1" circle... even if just barely. But with an LPVO, I can put all the rounds inside that 1" circle. Hell, I can put them into one hole if the barrel is up to par, every single time.

I don't shoot at full sized steel torso silhouettes. It is boring and unrealistic. It is WAY too easy. Try having a shooting partner put up 4 clay birds, painted gray, out at 50 to 200 yards, in random places but fully exposed, one in every 50 yard bracket. Then shoot them for time. Then swap. Compete for time. No penalty for misses, but only use a 20 round magazine. Hide your shooting partner's birds in plain sight. Make placing them as as big a part of the competition as hitting them. Like an Easter egg hunt. Do it with a red dot. Then tell me how a red dot is "good enough."

You can only shoot what you can see. Inside of 50 yards, I agree, you don't need anything but a red dot. And a red dot has small advantages over a LPVO. But the LPVO is close enough to a red dot to win out everytime you might shoot at 50y and over except for three factors. Weight, passive night vision use, and speed when only shooting inside of 50 yard range limits, but mostly inside of 25 yards. The LPVO is just heavier and bulkier, it sucks for passive night vision use, even with a stacked red dot. And a red dot is slightly easier to use and has better battery life for close range defensive uses. If you are not hunting small animals, you are probably better served with a red dot inside 50 yards and for sure inside 25 yards.

In my mind, there are only THREE target sizes that have practical value to me. A 1" target is the smallest you will ever shoot at outside of a shooting competition. It is the headshot on a squirrel, rabbit, turkey, rat, etc. It is the smallest I can reliably see at 50 yards without magnification. The second is a 4" target. That is the vital zone of most smaller animals. It is the target I can hit out to 200y with a point blank zeroed optic where I won't need to dial anything and can just hold. That is a coyote, small pig, bobcat, racoon, etc. It is also a headshot on a human looking around or over a barrier. The last is a 6" target. That is the upper torso vitals on a human facing sideways or an unobstructed head shot on a human... a solid hit, not a graze. It is the vital zone you shoot at for vurtually every game animal in North America. There are a few animals with a slightly bigger vital zone, but if you want lungs plus heart or aortic arch, you want to stay in a 6" target area. That is it. At any distance. Bigger targets are just a crutch. Bigger targets are just to see at range better or get onto something to see where your bullet is hitting to me.

So I ask again, what are your standards for a red dot out to 200y?
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 5:53:07 AM EST
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Every person I have ever seen who says they prefer a red dot to a LPVO on a rifle for uses past 50y has low shooting standards for accuracy, poor shooting skills, or they don't understand how difficult it can be to hit a human that does not want to get shot. Basically,  they eithet can't shoot well, don't see any value in shooting well, or lack imagination.

You say a red dot does everything inside of 200 yards.

What standard of accuracy are you looking for?

For me, I want to see and hit a target actively hiding, peeking around or over a barrier. At 200 yards. On the first shot. Every single time.

I need to be able to see and hit a 4" target at 200 yards on the first shot and know I can make the shot. That is just not going to happen with a red dot. Ever. Not for me. Not unless I have an LPVO or at least a magnifier.

A group shot on paper, to zero a weapon, for maximum precision...when all the bullets don't make a single hole... that is a failure to me. With a red dot... I have to live with a 50 yard zero on an AR where all I can do is put all the bullets into a 2" circle. Maybe, if I am lucky, all the bullets at least touching a 1" circle... even if just barely. But with an LPVO, I can put all the rounds inside that 1" circle. Hell, I can put them into one hole if the barrel is up to par, every single time.

I don't shoot at full sized steel torso silhouettes. It is boring and unrealistic. It is WAY too easy. Try having a shooting partner put up 4 clay birds, painted gray, out at 50 to 200 yards, in random places but fully exposed, one in every 50 yard bracket. Then shoot them for time. Then swap. Compete for time. No penalty for misses, but only use a 20 round magazine. Hide your shooting partner's birds in plain sight. Make placing them as as big a part of the competition as hitting them. Like an Easter egg hunt. Do it with a red dot. Then tell me how a red dot is "good enough."

You can only shoot what you can see. Inside of 50 yards, I agree, you don't need anything but a red dot. And a red dot has small advantages over a LPVO. But the LPVO is close enough to a red dot to win out everytime you might shoot at 50y and over except for three factors. Weight, passive night vision use, and speed when only shooting inside of 50 yard range limits, but mostly inside of 25 yards. The LPVO is just heavier and bulkier, it sucks for passive night vision use, even with a stacked red dot. And a red dot is slightly easier to use and has better battery life for close range defensive uses. If you are not hunting small animals, you are probably better served with a red dot inside 50 yards and for sure inside 25 yards.

In my mind, there are only THREE target sizes that have practical value to me. A 1" target is the smallest you will ever shoot at outside of a shooting competition. It is the headshot on a squirrel, rabbit, turkey, rat, etc. It is the smallest I can reliably see at 50 yards without magnification. The second is a 4" target. That is the vital zone of most smaller animals. It is the target I can hit out to 200y with a point blank zeroed optic where I won't need to dial anything and can just hold. That is a coyote, small pig, bobcat, racoon, etc. It is also a headshot on a human looking around or over a barrier. The last is a 6" target. That is the upper torso vitals on a human facing sideways or an unobstructed head shot on a human... a solid hit, not a graze. It is the vital zone you shoot at for vurtually every game animal in North America. There are a few animals with a slightly bigger vital zone, but if you want lungs plus heart or aortic arch, you want to stay in a 6" target area. That is it. At any distance. Bigger targets are just a crutch. Bigger targets are just to see at range better or get onto something to see where your bullet is hitting to me.

So I ask again, what are your standards for a red dot out to 200y?
View Quote


This sounds like a fun exercise.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 5:55:30 AM EST
[#30]
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Quoted:

One thing about LPVO is etched reticle works if battery or electronics fail. This assumes you have a fire dot LPVO, which I do.
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This is probably the most important characteristic an optic can have - it should be usable without batteries otherwise you're into BUIS if you care.   I don't see a need for that for my purposes.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 7:52:42 AM EST
[#31]
My 16” gun had an aimpoint on it until I built my 13.7. Then the 16” gun got a 1-6 lpvo. It’s a base model primary arms with the acss reticle.

The illumination is practically worthless, but me and my two sons have run it hard in carbine classes and we all really like it. We also have a really great time shooting making up “aim small, miss small” challenges at 50yards.

We’ve taken it out to 200 yards and practiced shooting a 17” circle. We hadn’t shot anything that far, so it was pretty cool for us to hit it with ease. It was our only magnified optic at the time.

I’m not planning on getting rid of it unless I get a nicer model.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 8:00:55 AM EST
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

What do you consider a bad shot? At 100yds shooting a regular CL barrel with an unmagnified RDS using M193 or ADI 69Gr SMK I can consistently hold 3" groups in the prone and sitting position using either the magazine(prone)or my knees for support. At 200yds with the same setup I open up to around 8" groups with the ADI and slightly larger with the cheaper M193, I can't see a 3" target that far away so I'm sort of guessing where it's at on the sheet of paper. With magnification the groups are inside of 4" out to 200yds.

I guess if this makes me a bad shot then it's my funeral. At least I'm not bragging about being a sniper that can shoot 1/2 MOA at 1000yds.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:

Tell us you’re a bad shot without saying you’re a bad shot.

What do you consider a bad shot? At 100yds shooting a regular CL barrel with an unmagnified RDS using M193 or ADI 69Gr SMK I can consistently hold 3" groups in the prone and sitting position using either the magazine(prone)or my knees for support. At 200yds with the same setup I open up to around 8" groups with the ADI and slightly larger with the cheaper M193, I can't see a 3" target that far away so I'm sort of guessing where it's at on the sheet of paper. With magnification the groups are inside of 4" out to 200yds.

I guess if this makes me a bad shot then it's my funeral. At least I'm not bragging about being a sniper that can shoot 1/2 MOA at 1000yds.

Misery loves company. Don’t feed the trolls.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 11:51:20 AM EST
[#33]
You think LPVO and 5.56 is a bad combination based upon your experience running them out to 200 yards for a couple of months out of the year?
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 11:54:58 AM EST
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Op is 100% right.  A red dot will do everything you need for HD or SHTF.  

Technology drove this demand not real world need.
View Quote


For the vast majority of people a RDS is a better choice, practically speaking.

But a LPVO is an excellent tool for a lot of things.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 12:02:01 PM EST
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Let me guess you are a sub-MOA shooter and it just comes all natural to you.  Those are big words to call someone a bad shot based off no observational data.  I am no expert shooter grand master tier one guy but I can hold my own well enough.  Saying that I can say as a matter of fact I am not a bad shooter but I am also not a great shooter I still learn new stuff all the time and push my limits.  Hell I would love to be a consistent sub-MOA shooter but sub groups are more the anomaly rather than the norm.  I also have my bad days that I think I cannot hit the broadside of a barn but usually have a friend bring me back to reality that I am shooting at best 2-4MOA ammo and shooting 2-4MOA groups.  Shooting M193 ammo with a red dot and making hits within the spec of the ammo is what a good shooter does.  You do not have to be great you just have to make hits.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

If you can actually do that then you’re alright. Everyone who I’ve met who says it’s good enough usually can’t hit the broad side of a barn and figure if the can hit a silhouette they’re good enough.


Let me guess you are a sub-MOA shooter and it just comes all natural to you.  Those are big words to call someone a bad shot based off no observational data.  I am no expert shooter grand master tier one guy but I can hold my own well enough.  Saying that I can say as a matter of fact I am not a bad shooter but I am also not a great shooter I still learn new stuff all the time and push my limits.  Hell I would love to be a consistent sub-MOA shooter but sub groups are more the anomaly rather than the norm.  I also have my bad days that I think I cannot hit the broadside of a barn but usually have a friend bring me back to reality that I am shooting at best 2-4MOA ammo and shooting 2-4MOA groups.  Shooting M193 ammo with a red dot and making hits within the spec of the ammo is what a good shooter does.  You do not have to be great you just have to make hits.

No I’m a pretty terrible shot actually. Decent instructor though. With enough sandbags everyone is a sub moa shooter.
Get most people off the bench and peoples accuracy goes down the toilet. Have them do anything physical and accuracy is really hilarious.
Most with a red dot accept shoddy accuracy in the best of circumstances,
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 12:26:45 PM EST
[#36]
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Quoted:
I don't shoot at full sized steel torso silhouettes. It is boring and unrealistic. It is WAY too easy. Try having a shooting partner put up 4 clay birds, painted gray, out at 50 to 200 yards, in random places but fully exposed, one in every 50 yard bracket. Then shoot them for time. Then swap. Compete for time. No penalty for misses, but only use a 20 round magazine. Hide your shooting partner's birds in plain sight. Make placing them as as big a part of the competition as hitting them. Like an Easter egg hunt. Do it with a red dot. Then tell me how a red dot is "good enough."
View Quote


In East Coast matches where you're shooting on natural terrain, dudes have a hard time even finding a C zone size silhouette once it's been shot up past 75y.  
It's one of the reasons why squads typically let red dot shooters go first so it's easier for them to find targets before hits start chipping away at the contrast.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 1:39:45 PM EST
[#37]
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Quoted:
Every person I have ever seen who says they prefer a red dot to a LPVO on a rifle for uses past 50y has low shooting standards for accuracy, poor shooting skills, or they don't understand how difficult it can be to hit a human that does not want to get shot. Basically,  they eithet can't shoot well, don't see any value in shooting well, or lack imagination.

You say a red dot does everything inside of 200 yards.

What standard of accuracy are you looking for?

For me, I want to see and hit a target actively hiding, peeking around or over a barrier. At 200 yards. On the first shot. Every single time.

I need to be able to see and hit a 4" target at 200 yards on the first shot and know I can make the shot. That is just not going to happen with a red dot. Ever. Not for me. Not unless I have an LPVO or at least a magnifier.

A group shot on paper, to zero a weapon, for maximum precision...when all the bullets don't make a single hole... that is a failure to me. With a red dot... I have to live with a 50 yard zero on an AR where all I can do is put all the bullets into a 2" circle. Maybe, if I am lucky, all the bullets at least touching a 1" circle... even if just barely. But with an LPVO, I can put all the rounds inside that 1" circle. Hell, I can put them into one hole if the barrel is up to par, every single time.

I don't shoot at full sized steel torso silhouettes. It is boring and unrealistic. It is WAY too easy. Try having a shooting partner put up 4 clay birds, painted gray, out at 50 to 200 yards, in random places but fully exposed, one in every 50 yard bracket. Then shoot them for time. Then swap. Compete for time. No penalty for misses, but only use a 20 round magazine. Hide your shooting partner's birds in plain sight. Make placing them as as big a part of the competition as hitting them. Like an Easter egg hunt. Do it with a red dot. Then tell me how a red dot is "good enough."

You can only shoot what you can see. Inside of 50 yards, I agree, you don't need anything but a red dot. And a red dot has small advantages over a LPVO. But the LPVO is close enough to a red dot to win out everytime you might shoot at 50y and over except for three factors. Weight, passive night vision use, and speed when only shooting inside of 50 yard range limits, but mostly inside of 25 yards. The LPVO is just heavier and bulkier, it sucks for passive night vision use, even with a stacked red dot. And a red dot is slightly easier to use and has better battery life for close range defensive uses. If you are not hunting small animals, you are probably better served with a red dot inside 50 yards and for sure inside 25 yards.

In my mind, there are only THREE target sizes that have practical value to me. A 1" target is the smallest you will ever shoot at outside of a shooting competition. It is the headshot on a squirrel, rabbit, turkey, rat, etc. It is the smallest I can reliably see at 50 yards without magnification. The second is a 4" target. That is the vital zone of most smaller animals. It is the target I can hit out to 200y with a point blank zeroed optic where I won't need to dial anything and can just hold. That is a coyote, small pig, bobcat, racoon, etc. It is also a headshot on a human looking around or over a barrier. The last is a 6" target. That is the upper torso vitals on a human facing sideways or an unobstructed head shot on a human... a solid hit, not a graze. It is the vital zone you shoot at for vurtually every game animal in North America. There are a few animals with a slightly bigger vital zone, but if you want lungs plus heart or aortic arch, you want to stay in a 6" target area. That is it. At any distance. Bigger targets are just a crutch. Bigger targets are just to see at range better or get onto something to see where your bullet is hitting to me.

So I ask again, what are your standards for a red dot out to 200y?
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I want to change my answer.  I think the above poster is right.  Maybe I should have said

A red dot is all you need for home defense.  

Magnification is a huge benefit for SHTF due to the fact that you may only have small body parts (heads, arms, ect..) to shoot at due to the fact that bad guys like to hide from people trying to shoot them.  Also, magnification is a huge benefit for things that blend in, like bad guys.  

I stand corrected.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 1:46:17 PM EST
[#38]
I just want to congratulate you on getting out of your comfort zone and giving an lpvo a shot, more than once and from more than just the bench. It's too easy to stick with ehat tou know and admonish against everything else.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 1:49:49 PM EST
[#39]
I’m having a hard time with making mine feel practical as well.  It sucks in close, and seems like it’s not that great of an actual optic out further.  I just have a strike eagle 1-6x, so maybe that’s part of the problem.

I’m faster from 0-200ish yards with a reddot.  If I’m going to start shooting past 400ish yards I’d rather have my AR10.  

I don’t know.  Maybe I’m better off with a reddot and a magnifier?
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 1:54:36 PM EST
[#40]
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Quoted:
I’m having a hard time with making mine feel practical as well.  It sucks in close, and seems like it’s not that great of an actual optic out further.  I just have a strike eagle 1-6x, so maybe that’s part of the problem.

I’m faster from 0-200ish yards with a reddot.  If I’m going to start shooting past 400ish yards I’d rather have my AR10.  

I don’t know.  Maybe I’m better off with a reddot and a magnifier?
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Strike Eagle is absolutely the problem there.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 1:56:15 PM EST
[#41]
A few of the LPVO's have 1-10 power range, which would work pretty well out to 600 yards.  Sure, a 4-16 would be better at 600 yards, but regardless of how well a LPVO works, if OP prefers something else, then by all means he should put whatever works best for him on his rifles.

The nice thing about having so many options available from cheap iron sights to a 2-20 power optic is that people can buy what they want for whatever is the intended purpose of their firearm.  

I wouldn't want a 30X scope on a rifle used for 3 gun matches where 50% of the targets were inside of 100 yards.  Nor would I want a 6 MOA red dot on a precision rifle intended for 600-1500 yards.  For a Coyote hunting rifle in 5.56 I would probably want something like a 2-10.  For a coyote and pig rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor/260 Rem/6.5x47 or 308, I would still probably want the 2-10 or a 1-10.  

In any case, by all means put whatever works for you on your rifle. I don't sell either rifles or optics, so I'm not going to try and "sell" anyone else on what works best for me.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 2:22:52 PM EST
[#42]
Someone else posted a similar drill-mine is called "into the unknown"

Varying distances, varying target sizes, varying contrasts. Very difficult without magnification of any kind.

Not a drag against rds by any means.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 3:38:35 PM EST
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A few of the LPVO's have 1-10 power range, which would work pretty well out to 600 yards.  Sure, a 4-16 would be better at 600 yards, but regardless of how well a LPVO works, if OP prefers something else, then by all means he should put whatever works best for him on his rifles.

The nice thing about having so many options available from cheap iron sights to a 2-20 power optic is that people can buy what they want for whatever is the intended purpose of their firearm.  

I wouldn't want a 30X scope on a rifle used for 3 gun matches where 50% of the targets were inside of 100 yards.  Nor would I want a 6 MOA red dot on a precision rifle intended for 600-1500 yards.  For a Coyote hunting rifle in 5.56 I would probably want something like a 2-10.  For a coyote and pig rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor/260 Rem/6.5x47 or 308, I would still probably want the 2-10 or a 1-10.  

In any case, by all means put whatever works for you on your rifle. I don't sell either rifles or optics, so I'm not going to try and "sell" anyone else on what works best for me.
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If I’m only pushing to 600 yards, I’ll run a 1-6.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 6:08:09 PM EST
[#44]
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Quoted:

No I’m a pretty terrible shot actually. Decent instructor though. With enough sandbags everyone is a sub moa shooter.
Get most people off the bench and peoples accuracy goes down the toilet. Have them do anything physical and accuracy is really hilarious.
Most with a red dot accept shoddy accuracy in the best of circumstances,
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I never bench shoot it is not fun like running godmode or cheat codes.  If I miss I miss I move on and try again.  I do shoot prone with bipod and squeeze stock bag, sit/kneeling I am not bad if I can get a good mount with my sling, and my favorite is off hand but I do miss more but that is ok it is fun.  I would be a subMOA guy with a sled and bags but hunting without a blind like I do you have to improvise support or carry it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 8:20:31 PM EST
[#45]
I don't like LPVOs all that much. I tend to prefer a somewhat shorter eye relief than many of them that I've tried (though admittedly I have mostly tried poverty tier LPVOs). Plus I'd rather swap between a red dot and a prism optic than running the magnification lever on an LPVO. I feel that the magnification lever has not caused me any issues when I've been at the range (but that is partially because I adjust magnification as I'm running from position to position, if I didn't know what I was coming up on that would probably trip me up), but I would rather just adjust my head position or rotate the gun to get to the dot or view through my prism. I feel that can allow me to switch faster and more instinctually than the mag lever.
Link Posted: 9/9/2023 8:47:57 PM EST
[#46]
I prefer a red dot with a flip up. But you did you.
Link Posted: 9/10/2023 11:41:11 AM EST
[#47]
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Quoted:
Maybe I'll give it a little more time and see if it grows on me. My eyes aren't getting any better so the day might come where I won't be able to use a RDS.
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The MRO HD has the big EoTech reticle and the soon to be released RMR will have the same. These big reticles work well ( regardless of eye issues ) shooting fast inside of one hundred yards. If you need magnification for a shot or for spotting then just use your magnifier.
Link Posted: 9/10/2023 11:53:49 AM EST
[#48]
@OP would you like help with the lpvo thing? I'm pretty solid with them
Link Posted: 9/10/2023 6:08:07 PM EST
[#49]
I just can't get into them at all.

I love the idea of the enhanced versatility offered, but I struggle to find the reality for the capability.  Seems best for very specific uses case (Patrol Officer or 3 gun, maybe rural for varmints) if we are talking about living state side.  Those are about the only occasions where you would possibly need to transition from 1x to 6x and would be taking long shots.

I could see most shots being done during critter hunting, but that seems like just another way of building a varmint gun.  Nothing wrong with that.

I ask myself these two questions:
What would I be justified in shooting beyond 50 yards?
What would I ever choose to shoot beyond 200 yards with 5.56?

Justified civilian self-defense headshots at 200 yards don't exist and I'm curious as to how many non LEO's stateside ACUTALLY use scope rifle to identify if someone else is armed? Are you really picking up a rifle and aiming it at someone too see if they are armed or not?    

Link Posted: 9/10/2023 6:22:04 PM EST
[#50]
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