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Posted: 12/28/2003 6:22:19 AM EST
When, or in what situation, would you use the XM193 and the 75gr+ bullets?
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 8:36:56 AM EST
XM193 - Daytime practice.

75gr OTM - All other situations.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 9:26:52 AM EST
I guess I should also ask: and why?
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 7:43:34 AM EST
XM193 is daytime practice.  Practice because its cheaper than 75gr Black hills.  Limited to daytime only because of its nasty flash.

75gr BH for all other occasons because:
1) Better Terminal performance.
2) Better Long range capability (if you have a 1:8 twist or faster).
3) VERY LOW flash so its much better suited for use at night (either 'for real' or for practice).

Substitute Black Hills 68gr OTM if the 75gr won't stabilize for your rifle.  It still retains all the advantages of the 75g - just not as impressive terminal performace.   But you'll save $2 a box/50.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 8:12:20 AM EST
I would use the heavy bullets for every serious situation. UNLESS, I was faced with a situation where I needed to conserve ammo, Or I was going to have to use a lot of ammo.

The problem I have is that I can afford and usually buy M193 because it is cheaper. So I have a lot of it.

So in a situation where I might need to delve into my stockpile of ammo, I would use M193 for pretty much everything, and save the Heavy bullets for special events. Determining when to use the good stuff might be hard. Maybe carry a couple mag loaded with it and use it when you really need to.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:59:55 AM EST
I've got a ton of once fired Lacke City brass.  I'll just reload some Hornady 75gr BTHPs with cannelure and power them up to mil-spec.  What is the typical velocity out of a 20" with the Black Hills?
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:51:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By Gargoyle:
I've got a ton of once fired Lacke City brass.  I'll just reload some Hornady 75gr BTHPs with cannelure and power them up to mil-spec.  What is the typical velocity out of a 20" with the Black Hills?
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Good Luck.  So far nobody's been able to do it.

And if you did get it to military velocity how are you going to keep the primers in place?  I don't know of any tools that allow civilians to stake their primers in place like military ammo.

Then, of course, there is the issue of flash...

FYI velocity of a 77gr is 2790fps @ 10'(Mk262 Mod 1 military load), with the 75gr out of an 18" @10' it is 2744fps (BH blue box).
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 12:39:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 12:46:37 PM EST
Troy there are other advantages to 75gr OTM compared to M193:

1) Shorter neck in the wound profile (meaning arm/leg hits will probably be more sever then getting a .22 cal puncture hole which can be fixed with a couple of band-aids)

2) Large permanent cavity

3) More reliable fragmentation than M193.

Only real advantages for M193 are cost ($180/1000rnds Q3131A  vs. $180/500 rounds BH Blue 75grOTM), and potentially reliability (staked/sealed primers of the Q3131A and the cannalure)
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 6:01:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 6:04:59 AM EST by Gargoyle]
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By Gargoyle:
I've got a ton of once fired Lacke City brass.  I'll just reload some Hornady 75gr BTHPs with cannelure and power them up to mil-spec.  What is the typical velocity out of a 20" with the Black Hills?
View Quote


Good Luck.  So far nobody's been able to do it.

And if you did get it to military velocity how are you going to keep the primers in place?  I don't know of any tools that allow civilians to stake their primers in place like military ammo.

Then, of course, there is the issue of flash...

FYI velocity of a 77gr is 2790fps @ 10'(Mk262 Mod 1 military load), with the 75gr out of an 18" @10' it is 2744fps (BH blue box).
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1. Good point about the primers.  Oh well, though I probably won't be able to load to mil-spec, I'll just see what I can get the 75gr up to without primer failures.  You think the terminal performance of a slower 75-77gr (100fps or so)will still exceed the performace of M193 typical terminal performance?

2. Flash is of no concern to me.  I operate, or will most likely always operate in an overt role(EP)99% of the time.

The M855 I have used and seen shot out of a M16 and SAW all showed a flash signature.  Even in daylight.  Guess the BH ammo exceeds military in that respect.

3. Thanks for the velocities. I'll let you know how things go out of my 18.5".  
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 6:37:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By Gargoyle:
to without primer failures.  You think the terminal performance of a slower 75-77gr (100fps or so)will still exceed the performace of M193 typical terminal performance?
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Yes.  You may/may not get the same fragmentation range (lets see the MV first)- but for a CQB type defense it should do much better.


2. Flash is of no concern to me.  I operate, or will most likely always operate in an overt role(EP)99% of the time.
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If you ever have to use your weapon at night (class, home defense etc) you DON'T want to be blinded by the flash of the first round.

Running drills at night next to someone shooting Q3131A from a post ban - evertime his rifle flashed it was like someone strobed me with a Surefire 6P.


The M855 I have used and seen shot out of a M16 and SAW all showed a flash signature.  Even in daylight.  Guess the BH ammo exceeds military in that respect.
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Yes, and the Military weapons all have flash supressors.


3. Thanks for the velocities. I'll let you know how things go out of my 18.5".  
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I should note that the velocities from the 18.5 rifle I tested were ALWAYS higher than other weapons (for all rounds tested from 55gr to 77gr).  Probably due to the tighter chamber/match barrel.

If I'm lucky, I'll be getting to the range tomorrow afternoon.  I'll run some BlackHills 75 gr through my Bushmaster 20" & 16" and post the numbers.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 9:17:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 9:23:58 AM EST by Gargoyle]
If you ever have to use your weapon at night (class, home defense etc) you DON'T want to be blinded by the flash of the first round.

Running drills at night next to someone shooting Q3131A from a post ban - evertime his rifle flashed it was like someone strobed me with a Surefire 6P.
View Quote


For fu@ks sake!  I'll have to run some M193 through the Colt and see if this is as much of a problem to a shooter using a flash supressed rifle. The way I see it, if they can see my flash, then most likely that will be the last bright light they see[:)]  But on the same token, I can't have my ammo blinding me.  I'll really check into this.  

If I'm lucky, I'll be getting to the range tomorrow afternoon. I'll run some BlackHills 75 gr through my Bushmaster 20" & 16" and post the numbers.
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How can you afford this ammo? [:O]  I looked at prices and they want damn near $40 for 50 rnds. I'm not afraid to spend a little more for operational effectiveness sake, but ther is no way I can buy BH ammo at those prices.

Also, Hornady TAP lists a slower velocity of 2670 for the 75gr.  Why don't they go hotter?
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 9:22:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 11:00:04 AM EST by eswanson]
Originally Posted By Gargoyle:
How can you afford this ammo? [0]  I looked at prices and they want damn near $40 for 50 rnds. I'm not afraid to spend a little more for operational effectiveness sake, but ther is no way I can buy BH ammo th those prices.
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Check out the prices at [url=http://www.georgiaprecision.com/cart/items/BH223RemNew.htm]Georgia Precision[/url].  It's more like 20 to 30 bucks a box.  Get the Blue Box reloads, it's just as good as the Red Box as far as quality.  The only difference is that it's once-fired brass.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 9:35:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 9:39:58 AM EST by Gargoyle]
Well, that looks a little better.  Still, I would like to find something around $.25 per round.  I would have to buy a few cases of whatever I end up chosing, and it is all overhead cost. 4 guys burning up ammo on the range a couple times a month already is taking a toll.  

I wonder if I can find something much cheaper than the BH and with similar ballistics (bullet path) and fire that for training.  Save the BH for a couple firings every once in awhile and for actuals.  

Or I could just load the Hornadys, get the most velocity I can within reason and run with it.  The shortest barrel we have is my 18.5, so range shouldn't be too much a factor.  
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:38:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 10:40:09 AM EST by Forest]
Originally Posted By Gargoyle:
How can you afford this ammo? [:O]
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Your Tax Dollars at work [;)].

No seriously its not that expensive.


I looked at prices and they want damn near $40 for 50 rnds.
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At $40 for 50 rounds that would not be out of line for premium defensive ammo.

However from Black Hills I have the following prices:
$18.50 for a box of 50 75gr OTM (blue box).  That is about 2x the cost of M193 so its not too bad.

Its $27.50 for a box of 50 75gr OTM (red box).

Those are the prices Fulton Armory charges (and I pay); Georgia Precision often has Black Hills sales and you can get an even better deal.

I use red box for my defensive ammo, and the blue box for practice & testing.  Essentially its the same ammo with the red box using new brase (blue box is once fired Lake City brass), and IIRC the red box has sealed primers.


Also, Hornady TAP lists a slower velocity of 2670 for the 75gr.  Why don't they go hotter?
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There are two loads for the TAP one for SAMMI chambers and the other for Military chambers.  The load you listed IIRC is the SAMMI load and that is as hot as it can go - the same pressure pushes the 55gr to 3100fps; with the 75gr its only 2670fps.  
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:06:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gargoyle:
Well, that looks a little better.  Still, I would like to find something around $.25 per round.  I would have to buy a few cases of whatever I end up chosing, and it is all overhead cost. 4 guys burning up ammo on the range a couple times a month already is taking a toll.  

I wonder if I can find something much cheaper than the BH and with similar ballistics (bullet path) and fire that for training.  Save the BH for a couple firings every once in awhile and for actuals.  
View Quote


Gargoyle,

See if this ammo suits you, at least the price's right:
http://www.radomski.us/njhp/major.htm

You can email questions to "Major" he's friendly and talkative.

Link Posted: 12/30/2003 4:09:32 PM EST
That "Major" ammo looks like a great deal.  I have 8lbs of Varget and a few thousand Lake City cases and primers laying around.  All I need is the bullets!  I have time between contracts to reload.  (Those periods are getting shorter due to the current state of the world!)

Forest........[:I] Yeah, targets are my kind of "Paper Work".  
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