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Posted: 4/20/2003 7:39:12 PM EDT
i have started to gather up parts and make a few parts .has any one used one of jp's aluminum  bolt carriers. any help would be great mabey we could exchange some info.thanks roc
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 5:10:34 AM EDT
So, I assume you are trying to go the "Under 50-oz" route?  I don't wish to beat a dead horse but remember the following...

A semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following features:
[list]  
[*]an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip.[/*]  
[*] a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer.[/*]  
[*] a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned.
[*] a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded.[/*]  
a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.[/*][/list]
View Quote


So, if your AR-15 pistol is to remain Semi-Auto with the detachable magazine you need to make sure that you don't have the threaded barrel, forend grips... as well as your 50-oz or greater weight!

I am actually working on two different AR-15 POST-BAN Pistols.  One will be a Bolt-Action while the second will be a lower with a perminantly attached magazine.  I have also considered a DPMS Single shot lower for a single-shot AR-15 pistol...  With all of these, the crime bill doesn't come into play so I can have 50-oz or more, the threaded barrel, and forward grips.

Just the same, I will follow along and help as I can as I have an extra 80% lower that I could try to do as a "Under-50 AR-pistol"
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 6:14:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2003 6:17:42 AM EDT by monkeyman]
I have a pistol lower that I built and have been trying to decide wheither to build a semi auto with a fixed mag or a single shot, or a manualy operated or a pump action. I just don't see a way to make a semi under 50ozs.

I picked up a pistol buffer but it appears that making it into a semi auto fixed mag pistol would be difficult at least if you want the load the thing by opening the upper and loading the mag with strippers. The buffer actually fits into the bolt so you would have to unscrew the buffer tube end, extract the guide rod, spring and buffer before you opened the action to load. Of course with a 30 round mag you could at least have a little fun.

My next thought, is to make a manually operated pistol. This is done by simply removing the gas tube and blocking the vent hole in an upper. This might be the cheapest way in that one could simply buy a cheap rifle upper somewhere and then cut the barrel down behind the front sight.

Of course a pump or slide action would be better. Perhaps this could be done by putting a roller bearing or somethng similar over the barrel and then afixing some type of rod through the vent tube hole into the bolt carrier.
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 6:27:31 AM EDT
i have a preban rifle.

can i make it into a preban pistol?
or is it once a rifle always a rifle?
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 6:50:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2003 7:07:04 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Once a rifle it is always a rifle.  You can not convert any RIFLE to a pistol...  SORRY!

BUT, I feel you have another option if you can own NFA SBRs in your area and you don't mind going that route....

§ 921.(a)(8) The term "short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
View Quote

From ATF Gun Control Act [url]http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/gca.htm[/url]

There is no requirement that a rifle maintains a stock (that I have ever seen) and the issue with using a 16+inch barrel on a T/C Contender with a pistol grip is that you have a SBR due to it's overall length.  This combines to mean the following IN MY OPPINION...

If you register your Pre-Ban AR-15 as a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) you can then configure it to look JUST LIKE a Pre-Ban AR-15 pistol!  Note, it would not be a pistol, it is a SBR that looks like a pistol!

Following are a couple pages that I am trying to work on in my spare time...

Ways to build an AR-15 POST BAN pistol
[url]http://quarterbore.com/nfa/sbr-aow-pistol.html[/url]

Bishop's Micro-Car with some ATF letters:
[url]http://quarterbore.com/ar15m16/micro-car.htm[/url]

Note, I am always looking for other oppinions and I am still waiting to get some answers from the ATF...

Good Luck!
QB
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 7:44:53 AM EDT
it sounds like i need a SBR.
do i need a "senior LEO" signature on the paperwork like when buying a MG?
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 8:01:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2003 8:11:14 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
The SBR paperwork is just like for a Form 4 so yes... fingerprints, passport photos, and CLEO signature....

If I didn't already have too may on-going projects I would be SBRing one of my Pre-Bans as it allows you to use it as a Normal AR-15, a NFA Length SBR (say real M-4 style w/ 14.5 bbl), a MICRO-CAR style weapon, a pre-ban style pistol configuration, and I argue you could even use it as an AOW style weapon!

Note, I have tried to bring the AOW topic up before in the context of making a SBR look like an AOW and I heard allot of naysayers....

BUT

.... remember an AOW can never have had a stock!  This is a RIFLE and has had a stock!  Therefore, adding a forward grip REGARDLESS OF A STOCK BEING ATTACHED OR NOT would still fall into a rifle category and if it's overall length is under the NFA required minimum it would be a SBR... NOT an AOW!

Ok boys, let me have it....
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 8:22:44 AM EDT
This was discussed a little while ago, I'll see if I can find the post. But I think it would be best to perminatley fix the mag to the lower which would make it so the AWB didn't apply.


Then just break it open and load it with stripper clips.
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 8:39:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2003 8:39:43 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Here are a few related threads... BUT... the SBR is probably the best way to get as close to a real Pre-Ban AR-15 pistol as you will get with the crime bill in place....

[url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=156724&w=searchPop[/url]

[url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=26&t=161623&w=searchPop[/url]

[url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=154494&w=searchPop[/url]

There is enough info in the threads above to write a small book!  Note, none of those discussed making an under-50 pistol as was the original topic of this thread!
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 8:45:43 AM EDT
If your intent was to make an AR-15 pistol, why not register a virgin post-ban lower as an AOW vs. a preban rifle as an SBR?  An AOW falls outside the 94 AWB, so will allow all the same "evil" features without requiring a more valuable preban receiver.

Rocko
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 9:21:58 AM EDT
An AOW is a great option BUT it can only be configured as an AOW...  The forward grip can never be removed, you can never add a stock, you can never use it as a normal AR-15!

With a SBR, you see the options I listed in my previous post....

With a POST-BAN AR-15 pistol, I THINK, you can still configure the pistol lower into a POST-BAN AR-15 style rifle...  WARNING HERE...  The ATF could say that if the lower is a PISTOL as by my own declaration and my supporting paperwork... then the crime bill would COULD APPLY to the pistol receiver even though it is configured as a rifle...

IE:  The issues in my first post in this thread....

A semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following features:
[list]  
[*]an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip.[/*]  
[*] a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer.[/*]  
[*] a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned.
[*] a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded.[/*]  
a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.[/*][/list]
View Quote


I am trying to get an answer from the ATF on this one... and I predict that the crime bill may have made it impossible for a post-ban AR-pistol to be configured into a post-ban semi-auto rifle in the example where I am using a Bolt-Action upper!  A non-detachable magazine would be a non-issue and should be fine!

This is a complicated subject and I am trying to put it all together but I seem to have too little time and too many bad habbits!
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 5:14:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2003 5:15:56 PM EDT by rocko]
Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
An AOW is a great option BUT it can only be configured as an AOW...  The forward grip can never be removed, you can never add a stock, you can never use it as a normal AR-15!
View Quote


I know you can never add a stock, but are you sure about the forward pistol grip thing?  Lots of configurations besides a pistol with a forward grip are considered AOW's.  For example, if I have an SP89 and one of those briefcases from H&K that can be used to shoot the gun, it needs to be registered as an AOW.  Chances are that anyone who wants to do this will add the K grip as well for an MP5K clone, but the fact that it can be shot while still concealed in the briefcase makes it an AOW all by itself.

Seems the same concept can be applied to an AR-15 in pistol configuration.  Rig up a briefcase from that can be used to fire the gun concealed and you have an AOW.  ATF says possession of both constitutes an AOW whether or not the firearm is actually installed in the briefcase, so it doesn't need to always be in the briefcase to be considered an AOW - you just have to own both.  None one says it needs to work good either, it just needs to work.  Of course, none of these rules were created for our benefit, but use their own rulings against them.

Aren't those belt buckle guns that can be fired while still attached considered AOW's as well, even if they can be detached from the belt/buckle?  Can you imagine trying to register an AR-15 pistol attached to a belt buckle as an AOW - LOL.  Still, it seems they are their rules.

Short of that, if the reason for registering is the forward pistol grip, and it is indeed true that it needs to be permanently attached, I'd think you'd still be able to come up with some sort of folding pistol grip.  So if you want to use it in "pistol" configuration, you can fold it up out of the way.

Best thing is, if you have an SOT "build" it for you, it is only a $5 transfer fee.  I'm not sure what they'd need to pay the excise tax on, though.  If they use your parts, but they supply the receiver, I would think they'd only need to pay tax on the parts and labor they supply.

As you say, not as flexible as going the SBR route, but you're also talking $100 for a new receiver vs $700-$800 for a used preban receiver.

BTW - did you end up joining at kimberton?

Rocko
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 5:30:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2003 9:04:54 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Rocko,

You know more about AOWs then I do and I will need to try to look up some of the history...  If what you say is accurate, then YES the easiest way would be to take an old brief case and rig it up for an AR-15 pistol style weapon...

I just never thought of that NOR do I know if your are correct or wrong...?  Hell, I am not sure where to begin.

I started a new thread [url]http://www.weaponforums.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=14&t=158098&w=myTopicPop[/url] to get more oppinions...  

I spent a little time over lunch looking and I couldn't find much to support or disagree with what you suggested...?

----------------------------------------

In regards to Kimberton, I was accepted to join but I have not sent in the check yet.  I like that the club is so close to home but I had hopes to find a longer range and a place that would be shoot off a full mag if I want.  I still have a memebership out at Milton Grove in Lancaster County and for $20/yr I can shoot anything including an M-16 and they have a 200-yrd range.  I am still looking and I may join yet?
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