Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
PSA
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 3/23/2003 5:29:04 AM EDT
Is it legal to build and register an AR pistol????....I was told that if I start with a stripped lower and register it as a pistol it can be done....also....I'm confused about cast vs forged lowers...any info would be appreciated.

thanks
Link Posted: 3/23/2003 3:50:22 PM EDT
Your main problem is an ATF requirement that the completed weapon weigh 50 oz or less.  

This has lead to the Carbon fiber AR pistol & that OA-98 from Olympic Arms.

http://www.olyarms.com/popup/oa98.html

If you want to have all of the evil features on your pistol, you can go with the $5 AOW registration (requires registration & tax stamp, adds a 2nd pistol grip under the barrel of pistol).  Or get one with a fixed 30rd magazine and use .223 stripper clips to load it.
Link Posted: 3/23/2003 4:31:36 PM EDT
AOW will cost $200 to make on a Form-1 if you do it yourself. If you buy an already done  AOW from a C2 or C3, the transfer is $5.
Link Posted: 3/27/2003 1:30:48 AM EDT

Here is what the AOW version looks like...

[image]http://www.triplebreakproducts.com/images/TBP/mvc00013.jpg[/image]
Link Posted: 3/27/2003 7:18:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2003 2:12:27 PM EDT by monkeyman]
You can make a single shot or manually operated AR pistol with no restrictions provided you use a new lower receiver and can document that it has never been made into a rifle. It can't be a semi-auto unless it weighs under 50ozs which is pretty darn light.
Link Posted: 3/27/2003 3:28:43 PM EDT
OK...so if my math is correct 3.125 pounds ....is this possible with off the shelf parts.....is that with or without a mag.???? thanks for the input....
Link Posted: 3/27/2003 4:16:19 PM EDT
unloaded weight, completely assembled, without magazine.

Not possible with off the shelf commercial parts.

Professional Ordnance managed it by using carbon fiber for just about everything.  Olympic Arms did it by turning the lower and upper into swiss cheese with holes drilled to lighten things up.
Link Posted: 3/27/2003 5:48:41 PM EDT
that's beyond my abilities.....BUT...do I really need it......not really.....do I want it.....yes
Link Posted: 3/28/2003 5:16:54 AM EDT
I have a page started that covers a few of my understandings and impressions on the subject...

[url]http://quarterbore.com/nfa/sbr-aow-pistol.html[/url]

I AM going to build a POST-BAN AR-15 pistol by making mine a BOLT ACTION as I describe on the page.  I am seriously considering doing this in 300 Fireball (300 Whisper Clone) so I can actually hunt with it!  Here in PA I can not use a Semi-Auto but I can use a BOLT-ACTION-PISTOL!

If anybody can add anything to my thoughts on the page I would love to hear them!  I have a letter dafted for the ATF to ask my questions but I need to make sure I was clear before I send it out.  I have written them before and if my questions are too vague I get a reply that is too vague to clairify what I need to know.
Link Posted: 3/28/2003 5:34:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
I have a page started that covers a few of my understandings and impressions on the subject...

[url]http://quarterbore.com/nfa/sbr-aow-pistol.html[/url]

I AM going to build a POST-BAN AR-15 pistol by making mine a BOLT ACTION as I describe on the page.  I am seriously considering doing this in 300 Fireball (300 Whisper Clone) so I can actually hunt with it!  Here in PA I can not use a Semi-Auto but I can use a BOLT-ACTION-PISTOL!

If anybody can add anything to my thoughts on the page I would love to hear them!  I have a letter dafted for the ATF to ask my questions but I need to make sure I was clear before I send it out.  I have written them before and if my questions are too vague I get a reply that is too vague to clairify what I need to know.
View Quote


I am interested. I already have a new stripped lower and a pistol length upper that I intend to make into a manually operated pistol. My thinking is to simply eliminate the gas tube and plug up the vent hole in the front sight tower. Other thoughts include a slide action to retract the bolt. I will take a look at your site.
Link Posted: 3/28/2003 5:09:57 PM EDT
Now this is geting interesting....will eliminating the gas tube be good enough for the ATF..will they consider that a permenant fix....I too have a stripped lower and pistol length upper...
Link Posted: 3/28/2003 6:16:33 PM EDT
Some interesting posts, I'm (slowly) in the process of building an AR15 pistol in 7.62X39.  It's good to know I don't have to worry so much about sights and the weight from them.  Some of my observations:

The 7.62X39 barrel might actually help reduce the weight, the outside diameter of some of the 7.62X39 barrels is the same as 5.56X45 barrels, which means a lighter weight for the same length barrel.  Flutting the barrel might help as well.  

I'm using a Tannery 80% Ceramic Matric Metal (CMM) receiver, the same weight as the standard aluminum receiver but 40% stronger.  This will allow me to reduce weight but keep the same strength as the standard receiver.

I'm planning on machining out the inside of the receiver as much as possible while keeping the standard AR receiver look.  Rather than drill lightning holes, such as the OA98, I will thin the material where (I think) I can and make a webbing structure.  I figure I;ll drill as many little holes in things, such as trugger, mag release, etc. as I can.

My upper receiver is (unfortunately) the Hesse/Vulcan composite receiver, I understand they aren't as accurate, due to poor tolerances, primarily the loose fit of the bolt in these receivers.  That might be taken care of with a sleeve....

Link Posted: 3/28/2003 8:09:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By user426:
Now this is geting interesting....will eliminating the gas tube be good enough for the ATF..will they consider that a permenant fix....I too have a stripped lower and pistol length upper...
View Quote


There is noting in the law that says it needs to be permenant!  It just says it can't be SEMI-AUTO!  Now, here in PA for me to use an AR-15 to hunt it must be permenant but that is a state requirement for hunting!

If I were to remove a gas tube from a standard AR-15 upper I could use that in a PRE-BAN configuration as without the gas tube it IS NOT SEMI-AUTO and the crime bill doesn't apply!  Now, if you put the gas tube back in, you must then only use it with a pre-ban lower!
Link Posted: 3/29/2003 3:31:43 AM EDT
This all sounds to good to be true.....so all I have to do is take out the gas tube...(so it's no longer a semi-auto) and then I can use a pre-ban upper..on a post-ban lower...
Link Posted: 3/29/2003 5:40:52 AM EDT
"If I were to remove a gas tube from a standard AR-15 upper I could use that in a PRE-BAN configuration as without the gas tube it IS NOT SEMI-AUTO and the crime bill doesn't apply! Now, if you put the gas tube back in, you must then only use it with a pre-ban lower!"

It's your choice, but I'd say your on thin ice trying to use this as justification for your postban AR pistol w/ preban features.  It's too easy to replace the gastube and have a semi auto weapon that violates 922.
Link Posted: 3/29/2003 6:06:17 AM EDT
so the SAFEST thing to do would be to use a post ban upper or just remove the evil components????  BTW thanks for all the info...
Link Posted: 3/29/2003 9:01:28 AM EDT
Cant you build one if the magazine is fixed in place? Deosn tthe law read that it must be a semi auto with a detatchable magazine? If it were fixed then all you would have to do to load it is open the receivers. Im not sure about this but maybe its worth looking into.
Link Posted: 3/29/2003 10:46:09 AM EDT
Yes, the magazine can be welded in place and loaded from the top to make them legal.
Link Posted: 3/29/2003 1:59:07 PM EDT
OK...so if the mag is welded in place.....do I still need to keep a post ban upper with a post ban lower....or can I put a pre ban upper on a post ban lower....and what about the 50 oz limit????
Link Posted: 3/29/2003 2:25:39 PM EDT
The law looks very much as if it were specifically designed to make it impossible to build an AR pistol. (Before you say, well DUH! I mean they had this particular firearm in mind when the text of the bill was drafted.)

Each of the five points of the law regarding semiautomatic pistols affects an AR based handgun, and must be dealt with. To top it all off - if they wanted, they could claim your 49.4 oz AR pistol with no barrel shroud or threads was a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm. Since full auto handguns are a rare bird that exist "just because", I feel this one too is a catch all in case someone managed to do it anyway.

They don't currently use clause 5 to stop you AFAIK, but the weight is what drives most people to a fixed magazine or non-semiauto. If either of these conditions cease to be true, then you can make a threaded barrel pistol so heavy you can barely lift it.
Link Posted: 3/29/2003 3:33:11 PM EDT
OK...more info to digest....BUT I want a single shot....so...It's ok to use a pre-ban upper on a post-ban lower?????????
Link Posted: 3/29/2003 4:00:38 PM EDT
user-

As long as the 'evil' preban components are removed, you are fine, and it doesn't matter if it was made in 1965 and saw duty in Vietnam.... With the upper that's the bayonet lug and flash hider. Remove them and there's no diff.

Question: How would the stock factory uppers be run in semi mode anyway? I mean, you've got no buffer/buffer tube/buffer spring....

The Carbon/Triplebreak pistol has an entirely reworked op-rod system to remove the need for the AR system, and sells for a premium because of that.

Link Posted: 3/29/2003 11:48:42 PM EDT

Something else to think about...

AOW's do not require a form .20 to transport across state borders...  SBR do.
Top Top